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that makes absolutely no sense. the whole point was performance dealing with jobs and pops. what other performance optimizations are people imagining being held off for a miracle build?
No miracles. The devs said it themselves: little to no performance benefits on the beta branch, because they're keeping the pop (group)/job calculations single-threaded in order to make debugging easier. Multi-threading these calculations will follow.
 
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No miracles. The devs said it themselves: little to no performance benefits on the beta branch, because they're keeping the pop (group)/job calculations single-threaded in order to make debugging easier. Multi-threading these calculations will follow.

You'd think however they'd have included them in the open beta, as that was literally the best time to introduce them for testing. But they didn't for reasons I can only speculate.

Overall I can only parrot what a bunch of other people have said: this is a disturbing place to end an open beta. I don't completely dislike zones, but I'm no longer seeing the benefits of them over districts and there's simply too much broken stuff to have any real faith that 4.0 will be stable and satisfying to play. Which is too bad since I'd have loved to play around with biogenesis when it comes out but now I don't think I can justify buying it. I guess we'll see in a month.
 
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A lack of personal understanding of something is not a lack of reason in its design (such as why performance updates are not included yet). Less than 1% of people understand all the physics and calculations that goes into their cellphones yet they still work just fine and most people still use them.
 
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You'd think however they'd have included them in the open beta, as that was literally the best time to introduce them for testing. But they didn't for reasons I can only speculate.
They did it because it makes bug fixing much easier and faster. Once they're happy with the system and have quashed most of the bugs, they'll make them multi-threaded and get the performance benefits.

Think of the Beta like surgery, the patient can't do anything else, but leaving them open until you fix everything makes way more sense than opening and closing them up a dozen times.
 
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Or, "Zones" become the name of the box that contains Districts, and you allow several customers Zones per planet. This allows the building of a dozen or more types of Districts, without having a UI cluttered with a dozen Districts. And you can either put building slots directly in the Zones, or leave them seperate, either can work.
I'm trying to imagine the end-point of zones. One thing they enable is more customised districts with a smaller list options at any one time.

So with 3 rural, 3 urban districts, each urban district could be any combination of two zones for the flexibility that zones can provide to output.
With 10 zone options x 10 zone options for each district = 100 outputs, but it doesn't matter the order so /2 = 50 outputs.

A list of 10 zones is better than a list with 50 district types.
If zone options increase to 20 types you'd have (20x20)/(2) = 200 distinct combinations.

I like the potential of zones, but hate reducing the number of district slots I have to work with.
 
@Eladrin - is it possible for UI overhaul mods to change the number of Districts, or add more Zones to the City, or add another Zone to bottom-row Districts if they want? In the current 3.x game I know there have been mods which more than doubled the District types on a colony.

Ideally it should also be easy for modders to change the color & background art for Districts & Zones and then the dev team can see what works best from the Workshop efforts.

Dev team would then be able to harvest the best ideas from what the Workshop creates.
 
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@Eladrin - is it possible for UI overhaul mods to change the number of Districts, or add more Zones to the City, or add another Zone to bottom-row Districts if they want? In the current 3.x game I know there have been mods which more than doubled the District types on a colony.

Ideally it should also be easy for modders to change the color & background art for Districts & Zones and then the dev team can see what works best from the Workshop efforts.

Dev team would then be able to harvest the best ideas from what the Workshop creates.
Why would the devs implement any mods when a mere fraction of the player base uses them? All other players wouldn't appreciate those changes that would be decided by the preferences of a minority
 
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You'd think however they'd have included them in the open beta, as that was literally the best time to introduce them for testing. But they didn't for reasons I can only speculate.
Because multithreading is a huge performance increase if done well and an infinitely expandable race condition bug generator if done poorly. Since doing it well requires a solid handle on what the game is doing and when, implementing it during rapidly iterating development of a massive system overhaul is guaranteed to fall under "poorly". One of, but not the only, reasons for this is that a substantial enough change to any part of a multithreaded system is likely going to force you to reassess the entire multithreading implementation. So trying to work that into the beta would have meant the last week would have been:

Monday morning: Release beta test
Monday afternoon: Do some stuff based on already queued up development and feedback from Monday morning
Tuesday morning: Multithreading to account for these changes
Tuesday afternoon: Probably more multithreading
Wednesday morning: Release beta test
Wednesday afternoon: Basically fixing bugs reported Wednesday morning due to multithreading issues
Thursday morning: Do some stuff based on already queued up development and feedback from Monday afternoon
Thursday afternoon: Undo all the multithreading work from Wednesday morning because it's all different now
Friday 8am: Release beta test that crashes on launch
Friday 8:05am -> Monday 8am: Alcohol and hiding
 
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Are the Gestalts functionnal?
Hives at least seem to get mining drones now, but they still start with the Urban Zone & primitive buildings rather than Archives & a Foundry zone. And Progenitor Hive origin is permanently stuck with the Missing Offspring modifier.

You can fix the zones by selecting your capital planet and using this console command: effect add_zone = { district = district_hive zone = zone_research_unity zone_slot = 1 replace = yes } add_zone = { district = district_hive zone = zone_foundry zone_slot = 2 replace = yes }

I haven't played long enough to notice if anything else is broken, though.

EDIT: Hives also don't get unity jobs from synaptic node buildings
 
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I'm trying to imagine the end-point of zones. One thing they enable is more customised districts with a smaller list options at any one time.

So with 3 rural, 3 urban districts, each urban district could be any combination of two zones for the flexibility that zones can provide to output.
With 10 zone options x 10 zone options for each district = 100 outputs, but it doesn't matter the order so /2 = 50 outputs.

A list of 10 zones is better than a list with 50 district types.
If zone options increase to 20 types you'd have (20x20)/(2) = 200 distinct combinations.

I like the potential of zones, but hate reducing the number of district slots I have to work with.
Those are more options, but do those options actually improve gameplay? How often do you think "I need to increase Trade, CGs, Research, and Unity right now" and then have a planet tailored to that need, that also has City Districts still to be built? It kinda becomes options for options sake.

So the irony is they wanted to not have everyone making mono-planets, but the only way to have fine control over your economy is to do exactly that, including a giant Trade world to account for defecits.
 
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I'm talking about the same thing. There is no clear concept, no fully working core mechanics. I won't even mention the integration of old content and balance.

In my opinion, they should either abandon this altogether. Or offer players at least a full-fledged skeleton of the concept, and not those jerks from one side to the other that we see in the beta iterations. And then, develop the beta in parallel with the main game. And it's worth introducing it into the game itself at least when it is in normal working condition.

And the developers, including according to their comments, want to do something on their knees and with crutches by the 5th. And then tell us that everything is just great and they, such great guys, will delight us with "innovations" for another whole year (in fact, just integrating old content and balancing all this).

And we, meanwhile, have to either stay on 3.14 or play in fact a beta. This is a bad approach. It is a pity that someone's pride, quarterly report, and unwillingness to admit the obvious are leading the game into a crisis stage.

The result will be disappointment for a considerable part of the regular old players, a drop in ratings and, as a consequence, sales. Which will already call into question the entire life cycle of the game in the future.

I think you went a bit overboard here and said some things that some of us are thinking — but it’s still too early to say them out loud.

The core mechanics are already there — we’re still building, generating jobs, and so on — but overall, the reason for this change is still not clear. True understanding would be reached when we can no longer just say, “well, this (new feature/interaction) would’ve been possible in the old system.” And I haven’t come across that moment yet.

If there were a document or plan shown outlining features and mechanics that clearly require zones as a baseline, it would be far better received by the people invested enough to play, write and read about the beta.




On a side note:
This whole situation is bad on a meta level. The devs wanted to try out a new system — and we always welcome such opportunities — but now the experiment isn’t being reviewed without controversy. And the thing is, this doesn’t really feel like a beta test anymore, but rather like sticking to an idea no matter what, even when the fundamentals are being criticized. It’s starting to feel like throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks, while somewhat filtering out the voices saying we need to change course.
I don’t know — this feels like a bad milestone for beta testing:
Bad for us, the community.
Bad for the devs, who now see their work heavily criticized.
And it's dissolving into a tug-of-war where one side clearly has a bigger lever than the other.
Not good at all, in my opinion.
This could lead to fewer betas/interactions in the future, and at the same time, a more hostile community — while devs may falter and retreat in the aftermath.
Really not good at all.
 
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I find it kinda irritating that people think that because there will be no longer any updates to this beta it means this is exactly what we are going to get on may.

The development will continue, and more centered and focus than what any of us can imagine. Reading some of the comments it makes me wonder if they will ever allow the players to catch a glimpse of future updates in open betas because it feels like everybody (I know not everybody but they are talking a lot about doom and gloom) thinks that this is the final product and no significant or any change will take place in the month they have to work on it.

Gonna be honest tho, I don't expect a perfect product when 4.0 releases, any veteran of this hobby, not only of paradox but of every other game in the industry, knows that there will be bugs and details to iron out after release, but paradox has something others don't, and that is commitment, because this game already IS Stellaris 4. They didn't release 4 games with small additions over the years and one or two dlcs, they created a behemoth of storytelling and a love encyclopedia to sci-fi.

So, unless officially stated by the devs that the work on the update that will release on may is done and finish and that the beta is the final product, then put your plasma pitchforks away and wait, be thrill, feel the excitement, we will get what other companies sell in a different product without any of the previous expansion ever making an appearance, we will get, if we follow the history of the updates, Stellaris 4, so relax and let the devs do their job knowing that we trust them and apriaciate their hard work. And that we will understand the bugs because they have shown us over the years that they fix those sooner or later.

Good luck Stellaris dev team, you are doing great and I look forward to 4.0! :D
 
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currently i see some minor issues with the new ui elements:
1. the colonisation takes 3 klicks each in different regions of the screen, making this a tedious process when done in mass (for example after the first wave of terraforming). i would make the species selection (maybe even the automation) default to whatever was used last and make the colonize button also accesible using the enter key (this would reduce colonisation to: click planet -> enter -> enter -> done)

2. pop growth is very difficult to observe as a whole now. yes you can see what each pop group is doing but it would be nice to have a single thing that says: hey this planet will have +/-x pops next month!

3. now that the terraform button is on the management tab the process to terraform a planet is also much more annoying (similar to 1.)
 
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I'm running Wild Swarm, so it makes sense that the devs haven't fixed the civic (and I can build corvettes if I really want)... but could you please make this either agnostic about our fleet type or adapt depending on civics and shipset choice? It would feel bad to be blocked from completing this task because of you chose bioships
 
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On a side note:
This whole situation is bad on a meta level. The devs wanted to try out a new system — and we always welcome such opportunities — but now the experiment isn’t being reviewed without controversy. And the thing is, this doesn’t really feel like a beta test anymore, but rather like sticking to an idea no matter what, even when the fundamentals are being criticized. It’s starting to feel like throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks, while somewhat filtering out the voices saying we need to change course.
I don’t know — this feels like a bad milestone for beta testing:
Bad for us, the community.
Bad for the devs, who now see their work heavily criticized.
And it's dissolving into a tug-of-war where one side clearly has a bigger lever than the other.
Not good at all, in my opinion.
This could lead to fewer betas/interactions in the future, and at the same time, a more hostile community — while devs may falter and retreat in the aftermath.
Really not good at all.

We went through that for a period in the Wiz era when there were a string of unfinished buggy releases that would break sections of the game (usually involving the AI) for weeks/months until fixes could roll out. People were understandably upset and he did not respond well to the criticism. It devolved into the typical passive aggressive "man the customers sure are toxic" response we see when things go south. Back then even just getting betas was like pulling teeth. Eventually he even threatened to cut back on communication overall if the community didn't shape up and start responding better to his releases. That went over about as well as you'd expect.

A little while later new management took over and revolutionized communication and interaction, brought in the custodians and now I would argue Stellaris has the most informative and responsive dev team among PDX. So however 4.0 is received I hope that doesn't change. The last thing we need is a return to the bad old days.
 
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Man... In yesterday's stream, the devs said they merged the 4.0 and 3.99 branches, worked on more features, then backported some cherry picked changes back to 3.99 for this beta release...

And clearly stated it's missing a lot of what you can expect. Because as usual, merging branches causes a lot of issues, and it's easier/quicker to debug and implement things when you're not working on two versions of the game. Hence, no more 3.99 after this.

Honestly, I wonder if a lot of the vitriol would be lessened if that was stated right at the top of this dev diary, instead of hidden in a stream.
 
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Since this is the very last Beta we're getting before the game is merged into 4.0 for release in a month, I guess I'll give one last detailed feedback on this version and the overall system:

This version is still very rough numbers wise. Having played for an hour before work, I got to Year 2220, and had four planets. My Capital had the starting Archives and Industrial Zones, with 6 City Districts. I had a Factory, Foundry, Research Lab and Administration Building all built in their slots, along with the Holo-Theater and Luxury Housing for Amenities. My other planets were a Research, Industrial and Unity planet with their corresponding Zones with 3 City Districts Built. Each one one of each of their base job buildings built in to them. I had my citizens on Social Welfare Living Standards. My Research, Consumer Goods and Unity all felt incredibly low. Unity in particular was dipping down into nearly single digits despite having many Unity Districts. Hopefully these numbers will be adjusted, because right now the early game is quite painful.

As for the system as a whole, I find it interesting how far we have moved from the Developer's original intent with Zones. We have less Zone Slots, more Building Slots, and non-restricted Buildings that give flat amount of jobs. It very much feels we've reached a weird hybridization point of the Zone system and what we have in the current build and honestly I don't think it's good. It's doing nothing better than 3.14, but also barely has it's own identity anymore. The biggest change is that now all of the main jobs (Factories, Foundries, Unity, Research) all scale with Planet Size instead of just Factories and Foundries, something that could easily have been accomplished without a completely overhaul of the system.

I've said in a few other threads, that I actually loved the idea of Zones when I first heard them. While I think the implementation wasn't very good, the basic idea as I understood it sounded like a cool step in the right direction. I think part of this original excitement is due to the vagueness of how they would work, which in hindsight seems to be because the Developers still aren't 100% sure how they're supposed to work either considering how much has changed between 3.99 and now. That vagueness allowed people to sort of superimpose their own specific idea of what it should be over the vague basic idea we were given. Every thread regarding Zones has had people giving their own take on the idea as they think it should work. I would go as far to say that it seems like the majority like the idea of some amount of change to Planet Development and many ideas have been given to try and find a way to make Zones work more. I feel like people who flat out hate all changes from 3.14 and people who love the current implementation of Zones are both currently the minority under people who want change but simply think it was added in in a way that doesn't feel great.

As things will soon be solidified, I figured I would (As others have in this thread) reiterate suggestions I have made in previous threads about how I was hoping Zones would (and could) work:

For starters, I would not have Zones unlocked directly by technology. I would instead have a new Zone unlock every time the Planetary Capital is upgraded. I would also find a way to make them a somewhat guaranteed research option considering how important they would be to the development of your Empire. Without a guarantee on the tech, you could end up in situations where you get massively behind as you are locked out of a substantial increase to a planet's capability. I would also go back to the original idea of repeating Zones do not give Building Slots.

Next I would have two types of Buildings. One type being buffs to Zones (Automation Buildings lessening how much Workforce you need, Buildings increasing Output, ect) with a Planet Limit. The other type would shift a portion of Jobs from the Zone, to the Jobs from the Building. So if a Zone gave 100 Jobs, a Building might replace 25 of those Jobs to a new type with, a Zone Limit. This way if you're playing an Empire that has a focus on a specific type of job (Oppressive Authority wants Enforcers, Citizen Service wants Soldiers, ect), if you feel like you're a bit behind somewhere, or if you just want to customize your City District exactly how you want you can. Since their biggest selling point was "Customization of your City District", this would be far and away the best way to be able to customize the nitty gritty of your Cities. This would allow for both hyper specialized Planets, where every Zone is a Research Zone, and you have some passive "Buff" Buildings, but would also let you make a more generalized planet with different Zones (And more Building Slots) where you can pick and choose which Zones give you what type of Jobs down to a pretty micro level.

This would mean ALL jobs are now scaling with Planet Size, which seems to be one of the goals. It would allow far more customization which was one of the goals. It would make Buildings still feel impactful, but less so than Zones which was also one of the goals. It would help from a roleplay perspective that you can have a small amount of jobs in each Zone to fit the feel of your Empire. A Precinct in every Zone so you can really feel like you're oppressing your population. A Holo-Theater in every Zone so you can feel like you're spoiling your population. A Fortress in every Zone for the folks that love their military parades (Or also oppressing your population). The list goes on and on if you're deeply invested in the story of your planet, as a lot of people are.

Lastly I would still keep an increased number of jobs in the Capital District but also restrict certain jobs to ONLY being in the Capital. Things like Clone Vats, Robot Factories, Psi-Corps, ect.

While this change is definitely more complex than just having a job add X amount of Jobs, it also accomplishes what the Developers wanted far better than what we have now, while still allowing people to micromanage their planet if they want to.
 
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View attachment 1276472

I'm running Wild Swarm, so it makes sense that the devs haven't fixed the civic (and I can build corvettes if I really want)... but could you please make this either agnostic about our fleet type or adapt depending on civics and shipset choice? It would feel bad to be blocked from completing this task because of you chose bioships
I suspect that's on the list of things to do on the main--biogenesis--branch of development. They have said that DLC content would come much latter, implying after the Beta ended. Given they haven't yet DLC content likely wont show up in the beta. incidentally, they also suggested DLC technologies might be added to the rewards--new reward tears also added--such that it fits in.

This is also probably why megacorps remain external to the beta.