Daughters as countesses is good though, since they will never marry and thus their male relatives (father or brothers) will inherit.
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Byakhiam said:
I believe if you check the records, Germany is actually either formally or informally allied to every player nation but Italy and Naples. Some countries (England, France, and Burgundy most prominantly) have sought to reinforce those ties with marriages. And, if I recall correctly, Germany did offer Naples an alliance as well at the beginning of the game....
Naples' rebellious provinces won't be added back. They broke away during the long war between Burgundy and Naples, and if you wish to unite them you'll have to do so militarily or diplomatically. Sterk should tell me what claims he plans to press against Naples, and I shall make it so before the next session begins. That way, the messiness in Italy will be somewhat cleaned up before the start of the next session.
As far as the game goes, Byak, you may certainly leave if you have lost interest in the game, but I would encourage you to stay. The fall of Naples was in part due to to a weaker position on your part, partly due to to some admirable roleplaying that further put you in a weaker position (by refusing to crusade), and partly due to some game decisions that lead to an irretrievable cascade effect (ie- attacking Rome without allies after the larger and expansionistic Burgundy declared they would consider attacking Rome causus belli against Naples.) That's just my view of things, but it could have happened to any of us. Leinster got a beating after one bad decision in the last game, and I'm sure it's happened to all of us at one time or another.
You could, of course, soldier on with your current family, struggling to regain your former power, or you could switch to a different Catholic Kingdom and get a fresh start of things. From my debacle in Leinster in the other game, you know I'm a fan of soldiering on even when things turn against you, but seeing the Gaelic Kingdom (apparently) or Poland. Both are in an interresting position, and would give you a chance to create a new character and pick up a new strategy.
We also need to settle the matter of the Papacy. Anyone can bid to invite the Pope in. I have a few rules I would like to suggest for the bidding of provinces:
1) You may only offer provinces you directly control. You may not offer provinces controlled by your vassall, because they are not yours in fact (though they are in theory.)
2) You may only offer provinces that have converted to Catholicism. The Pope, I do not think, would set up operations in a pagan or muslim province for the same reason George W. Bush doesn't set up operations in Baghdad or Kabul- ie. living among lots of people that want to kill you is usually not advisable.
3) If you are in control of Rome, you must offer Rome to be allowed to offer any other provinces.
Interrested players can put their offers here, and then we can vote on the one we think the Pope would take. If Rome is offered, that offer automatically wins. Winner gets to pick whom will be the next papal controller and will recieve a bonus of 300 piety points as well as a piety and prestige bonus equal to the value the land would have if you had converted the provinces into bishoprics.
Each time Rome changes hands, players should have the option of turning it over to the Pope or taking the -1000 piety hit. If a player opts to surrender Rome to the Holy See after a second papal court has been selected, the provinces the Pope controlled previously will revert back to the original owner and the bestower of Rome on the pope will gain a piety bonus of 500 points, as well as the piety and prestige bonus equivilant to it's value if you had turned it into a Bishopric.
If no player decides to make an offer, I will select a Bishopric from an NPC country, that NPC will gain the bonus as outlined above, and all players will take a -100 piety hit.
Does that sound acceptable as a means of settling the Papal question?
Patrucio said:
Aye, I'm not sure I'll quit, but should I continue, I have to accept the harsh reality of kings game, that it's by no means RP-focused game, but ruthless powergaming game. So I guess I should really ask my fellow players that will they prefer seeing me take over some other kingdom and powergame or just quit altogether?
Patrucio said:
No point in soldiering in a powergame, sorry.
Patrucio said:
To me yes, but I am biased and currently without a country.
I don't know if I would quite agree with that assessment of the situation, but then again I didn't just see my Kingdom get knocked over.
From my point of view, though, I think people have been role playing fairly well given the nature of the game. Had I, for example, been powergaming, I would have taken the crusader trait and made my run on the Balkans without a second thought. I decided however that, dispite my character's religious persuasion he had a strong belief that his destiny lead him down a different path and have been dealing with vassals that dislike me because of that decision ever since. Other players have made decisions that, in my mind, have not always been in their best interest but fit with their character.
There is some elements of power-gaming, true, but I also agree with you that is in part due to the nature of the game. In a game/story set on the top tier of power in CK, I think the struggle for power is always going to emerge as the continuing thread of the story, though there will always be side-stories as well. We have done (to my mind) a good job of curbing the worst part of the powergame lure by putting some fairly harsh restrictions on Crusading (for example, I doubtany of us will be able to crusade again for at least a generation with all the muslim and pagan provinces we have in our kingdom.)
That said, play the game however you think you want or need to. If that means powergaming, then that's what you gotta do.
Well, technically, you wouldn't be powergaming but rather role-playing an expansionistic and driven monarch determined to spread his power as far and wide as possible. IIRC, there are quite a few of those in the history books....
Patrucio said:Well, technically, you wouldn't be powergaming but rather role-playing an expansionistic and driven monarch determined to spread his power as far and wide as possible. IIRC, there are quite a few of those in the history books....
Well... I'll make up something to suit that evil plan. I'll pick Poland.
So how about this plan:
Age: 16
Stats:
Martial 10
Diplomacy 4
Intrigue 2
Stewardship 10
Fertility 6
Health 8
Martial Cleric, Zealous, Just
I'll think up a story later.
Age: 16
Stats:
Martial 10
Diplomacy 4
Intrigue 2
Stewardship 10
Fertility 6
Health 8
Martial Cleric, Zealous, Just
I'll think up a story later.
If you want to have an intrigue of 2 and live next to Istvan the Knife, then you're a braver man than I....
Patrucio said:
Well effective intrigue 3. Martial Cleric gives +1.
Besides, I believe I won't get assasinated just because I have weak intrigue. I might get if it would mean my kingdom inherited by the assassin or if I would be mauling the assasin's kingdom to the ground.
But I really believe that people don't murder others just because they have low intrigue or William de Hauteville would have died already twenty years ago...
You could also get assassinated if you ally to the wrong person, and someone needs to break up an alliance before they attack....
But you're most likely safe from assassination, at least for now. I was mainly just joking with you.
But you're most likely safe from assassination, at least for now. I was mainly just joking with you.
Patrucio said:But you're most likely safe from assassination, at least for now. I was mainly just joking with you.
Well, if you can put the current save for DL, I could check out who I need edit to make it sensible and working. I guess I need to change the count of Torki into king of Poland, but that's just a guess...
Byakhiam said:
Kubla Khan, King of Poland.
I was going to post the save as soon as Sterk tells me what he wants done in Naples. I figured that people would need to be able to look at the save before they made any bids on the Pope.
Patrucio said:Kubla Khan, King of Poland.
Argh, you saw through my cunning plan...
Not really.
Just kill any mongol kids he has and if he's king of Poland with capital in Poland, he won't get more.Patrucio said:
Sterk can make peace with Naples himself during next session, I believe. Unless he wants to give Rome to Pope.
Byakhiam said:
Fair enough. Sterk, unless you're going to give Rome to the Pope, I'll post the save tomorrow morning so people can get to it and take a look at whatever it is they need to look at...
Beloved Poland... oh well. Anyway, I will give up Rome (after all, my character was zealous at one point, and he's generous too), to the papacy. But, could I keep my claim on Rome? The point of that is to simulate that, while I am not the papal controller, I am the protector of the Pope, so, if someone attacks and annexes the Papacy, I can then invade, take Rome, and return it to the papacy.
The claims I will push on Naples are King of Naples, Count of Roma, and Count of Livorno (although I guess you wouldn't be editing Roma to me). Also, shouldn't I get the appropriate prestige bonus for taking the titles?
As for powergaming, I was RPing when I invaded you:
1) De Turenne is a hated enemy of de Hauteville.
2) Burgundy had declared that anyone who attacked the Pope would be considered and enemy and would be invaded.
And, you wanted us to focus more on Europe, and I had to somewhat powergame (i.e. invading Italy), in order to accomplish that.
An idea for when Lincoln comes back... we could edit the lands of the Duke of Romagna (former king of Naples, de Turenne), and all the other duchies and counts to Italy, to merge them. While this might create a great power, he IS in the middle of three very power-hungry nations.
One more thing, cosmetic edits don't include changing the culture/name of a son, do they?
The claims I will push on Naples are King of Naples, Count of Roma, and Count of Livorno (although I guess you wouldn't be editing Roma to me). Also, shouldn't I get the appropriate prestige bonus for taking the titles?
As for powergaming, I was RPing when I invaded you:
1) De Turenne is a hated enemy of de Hauteville.
2) Burgundy had declared that anyone who attacked the Pope would be considered and enemy and would be invaded.
And, you wanted us to focus more on Europe, and I had to somewhat powergame (i.e. invading Italy), in order to accomplish that.
An idea for when Lincoln comes back... we could edit the lands of the Duke of Romagna (former king of Naples, de Turenne), and all the other duchies and counts to Italy, to merge them. While this might create a great power, he IS in the middle of three very power-hungry nations.
One more thing, cosmetic edits don't include changing the culture/name of a son, do they?
Fair enough. You can keep your claim on Rome.
Pick who you want to be the Papal controller. If there are no de Hautevilles out there with a clerical education, I'll make up a de Hauteville country cousin to become pope. If there is a male de Hauteville out there with an ecclesiastic education (except for one of your kids, of course), then I'll have them elected Pope if they don't hold a title.
I'll open the game in SP and have you take the titles, then I'll edit Rome to be independent. You'll get your pretsige.
Culture of your child has to stay whatever it is, but if you want to change the name of one of your children I can make that edit.
Sterkarm said:
I would see it reasonable to let Burgundy keep the claim on Rome, as Sterk has good RP-reasoning for it.
Sterkarm said:
I think the best way to edit this would be to re-create Papacy with having Rome as it's only province and then have Sterk force the other claims during next session. That would leave the claim on Rome intact too and give proper prestige bonus for taking Livorno and Naples.
Sterkarm said:
I didn't accuse you of powergaming because you invaded me, but for other reasons. But let's not argue about that. At least not on boards. If you want, you may ask about it via AIM.
Sterkarm said:
If Lincoln comes back, he can offer vassallage to the now-independent dukes that are leftovers of Naples (aka everything except Calabria and Ravenna).
Sterkarm said:
Names have no effect, so if Pat is willing, he might do that. I would oppose changing culture because culture affects things like tech spread and religion spread.
That sounds good. I'll rebuild the Papacy, give Sterk his bonus, and edit in a papal controller once Sterk picks one. Scenario should be up tomorrow.
While we are at it, I suggest you edit Torki to have pecheneg culture instead of mongol, just to make sure there aren't any early mongols appearing.
And if you are allowing name edits, I'd like Istvan's son Marton renamed to Andras.
As for assassinating, as you know for Istvan the Knife it's nothing personal, only business.
And if you are allowing name edits, I'd like Istvan's son Marton renamed to Andras.
As for assassinating, as you know for Istvan the Knife it's nothing personal, only business.
Solmyr said:While we are at it, I suggest you edit Torki to have pecheneg culture instead of mongol, just to make sure there aren't any early mongols appearing.
And if you are allowing name edits, I'd like Istvan's son Marton renamed to Andras.
As for assassinating, as you know for Istvan the Knife it's nothing personal, only business.
Who hired you to assassinate me? Also, I have yet to decide on Papal Controller, I'll get back to you ASAP.
I hope nobody will become Papal Controller against their will.
Actually, Sterk, if Pope will be some young lad, you could make some pious young AI count the controller. That way it would stay at one person for long and it would be AI, so no problems with "random excommunication of heirs" :rofl:
Actually, Sterk, if Pope will be some young lad, you could make some pious young AI count the controller. That way it would stay at one person for long and it would be AI, so no problems with "random excommunication of heirs" :rofl: