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Testing patch 1.06b in a long term game.

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Medicine Man, obviously I am the wrong one to comment your change requests, since I believe restricting stability hits to -1 would mean severely weakening the set (and the -2 and -3 stab Peasants are not of my devising :D), but I will just notice the areas of interest in the event set that have been the least tested (fresh eyes are always appreciated):

  • Gifts to the state (non-scaled in v0.9.4, newly scaled
  • Explorers (toughened up)
  • Manufactories (toughened up)
  • Plague (in the SSREM you BOTH suffer from ordinary plague events like those you are used to from the default set AND "Plague throughout the land" like as currently implemented in 1.06b2)

Unlike the rest of the set, these events were rather hurriedly made (though of scale to comply with the rest of the event set), when I was asked whether I was willing to provide a basic scaled event set (and while working on the SSREM 0.9.5). Thus, if there are any more errors, they are likely to be within those sections - the countrysize 20 grants 1000d goof is a good case in point.


Johan (if you are listening :D), if you/we/somebody can come up with a list of overall action points, I can reserve part of the upcoming weekend to rehash the event set in accordance with the list. (Bug fixes are being applied on my local copy under CVS control as they are discovered in the meantime)
 
Originally posted by TheArchduke
I think the best would be if Duma would state exactly what the problem is with the new events. I mean the bad effects could be tuned down but that is no solution.

A small country with unscaled events could have corruption right after the start twice. You call this fair? I call it insane and it calls for restart and i do it if something happened like this right in 1492/1493. It is more difficult in MP but i have found out that there always people who like to push your country. Even the economic weak ones like Sweden or Russia can always count on other powers helping them.

It is certainly no solution rushing out of the thread and i must admit that when Peter said: "take it as a man" he didn´t mean it personally.

I don´t like plagues too also and they can hurt as a small country like Portugal but that´s what agricultural revolution is for.
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I'm not intrested in butting heads over this issue anymore. It will just force me to go into another direction which I did not want to go.

But in either case it should be better for all of us. Those who like these events will have them. For me and my play group, I intend to give them other options other then being force fed these unbalanced events.

Duma
 
Hello,

I am going to leave the event changes alone for now as I have not had enough time to see how they would affect a country over the course of a full grand campaign.

Johan,

On the new tweaks to the Trade Embargos done by the AI, see my remarks in the earlier post in this thread. I am concerned that the AI is killing itself with these.

In this version of the beta and I am wondering if they have been tweaked up too much. Venice and Genoa have laid them on me regularly, which is fine I am not complaing about that. My concern is that in the last 2 incidents Venice was already at -2 stability when they used them. So they went to -3, this is not a smart move and I don't know many human players who would do this to knock a couple merchants out of their COTs for this cost when they have larger problems going on. The thing that is really bad is that they seem to take them off about as fast as they put them on so they gain nothing for the stability hit. I am sending my merchants manually and never put more than three in either of these countries COTs so I am wondering why I am such a threat to their national trade. Other countries had 4 or 5 there and were actively competing to expand their trade while I put three there and left them. In all case that they embargoed me I think maybe I lost two or three merchants not really worth the cost for the AI.

So all in all we are trying to get the AI as close to perfect as possible and I don't think we have that the way it is currently set. I am glad they use them, in the past I think I was only hit with them by Spain and that was later in the game.

I like the idea that they are willing to embargo me but I am concerned with how they are doing it and if it is really worth it for them.

Has anyone else seen this or is it just a fluke?

Juice
 
in a recent game on sp as Russia i had Venice, Port, Spain, Genoa, France, England, OE and Netherlands slap and embargo on me only to have it lifted a year later. They did this every 2 years or so, until most of my messages that popped up were denies trade or allows trade messages.
 
I really like some of MM's suggestions, good work there. :) The events as they are, are fine for me, but if they need to be changed so that (not everybody naturally, c'est impossible) but most people are happy, then some modifications like MM suggested would be fine by me. I don't really at all support some of the things Duma is suggesting, like deviating completely from official versions, at least not until this beta is made official, and people still feel they are being victimized by events. I think we're making judgements here much too early on something that is still a work in progress.

Also, i'd like to point out that I totally support the idea of events having a bit more push than they used to. As was mentioned, not having randomness in the game would be impossible, and make it simply a game of math. And what good are events that have very little effect on the larger powers? I think many of the new events are great, but if they need to be tweaked a bit for the common tranquility, then so be it. :)
 
I just feel people are too used to get the easy way out of things, the game has been far to kind and easy for players, things like these new events are something that just makes things a bit harder on players (there are still tons of good events too that everyone seems to forget). I think events should be tweaked and balanced sure, but I don't think they are overall too bad at the moment. It's just a good thing the game isnt dancing on roses all the way through anymore... Which is how id should be.
 
Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Johan (if you are listening :D), if you/we/somebody can come up with a list of overall action points, I can reserve part of the upcoming weekend to rehash the event set in accordance with the list. (Bug fixes are being applied on my local copy under CVS control as they are discovered in the meantime)
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I think we need to come to a good conclusion here on how to balance. I'll look into posting a suggestion list later on tonight here.
 
Originally posted by RedPhoenix
I just feel people are too used to get the easy way out of things, the game has been far to kind and easy for players, things like these new events are something that just makes things a bit harder on players (there are still tons of good events too that everyone seems to forget). I think events should be tweaked and balanced sure, but I don't think they are overall too bad at the moment. It's just a good thing the game isnt dancing on roses all the way through anymore... Which is how id should be.
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I agree 100% Red. :)

And as for your suggestion list Johan, I'm very much looking forward to seeing your ideas on this. :)
 
Okay, beta 3 is out. I see that the plague got reduced a bit in scope, and that the bad trigger in 99028 got fixed :)

However, 99005 still has the wrong countrysize trigger, allowing 20+ nations to gain 1000d gifts rather than 200+. (Not that they are likely to complain, but this is too generous)

The following, however, is a neat change:

Tradingposts no longer count for a nations size in event triggers.
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Which is superior to the old countrysize. It would probably work even better if full provinces counted for 1 apiece, colonies (<700 pop) for 0.5 apiece, and trading posts for 0.25 apiece. (Got to love feature creep!)
 
Yeah, the betas are getting better and better. Poor Portugal won't be targeted by events she can't handle anymore over her tp's. And best of all my Holstein population change finally made it in. :)
 
That's just about what I was hoping would happen to the plague events. There are now no longer any manpower hits when you are just over 30+ provinces. A good thing in my opinion. Intuitively, one would think that a 30-province nation should be able to absorb the loss without flinching but in practice many of the majors are close to 30 provs at the start of the 1492 scenario. It really does hurt getting tossed an elbow that early in the game. Well, in my opinion it does, and I know opinions vary.

One thing I noticed about the 1.06b v.3 plagues is that 9+ province nations still are guaranteed to have every plague affect their capital. I'm still not sure what the rationale behind this is. I'll admit that the code in the event file has a certain zen, but the result does ensure that the capital is going to lose more population than any other province, especially when you consider that any of the randomly chosen provinces (-1) could also pick the capital. There are many nations that do not have the highest base population in their capital either: China, Muscovy (in 1419), Austria, Spain and Poland just to name a few.

I wonder if we couldn't replace the 'population -2' lines with 'population -1' for all but the very largest plagues (provinces 80+ and 200+)?
 
Originally posted by N Katsyev
I agree 100% Red. :)
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Nothing's stopping you from downloading Peter's full SSREM mod, Kat, if you think it's just too lenient now. :)
 
Originally posted by Medicine Man
Nothing's stopping you from downloading Peter's full SSREM mod, Kat, if you think it's just too lenient now. :)
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You're perfectly right, and Laex keeps telling me I should download EEP sometime too, but i'm just not too into mods, maybe someday. :) And its not that I think they are too lenient now, but I didn't really think they were too harsh before either, honestly it doesent really matter in the end.
 
Originally posted by N Katsyev
You're perfectly right, and Laex keeps telling me I should download EEP sometime too, but i'm just not too into mods, maybe someday. :) And its not that I think they are too lenient now, but I didn't really think they were too harsh before either, honestly it doesent really matter in the end.
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Laex is right about the EEP by the way. They have some very interesting events and alternate history scenarios set up in that mod. Best of all, you can install the EEP without screwing up your regular GC. It's pretty much a win-win.

My problem is that I sometimes end up modding things myself -- and I never know when to stop making changes. As soon as 1.06b is released, I'm going to make some techgroup changes. The OE and Poland are going into the Latin group until the early 1600s and Nippon is going into Muslim group at the start of the Sengoku Jidai. I may also modify the Japanese leaders a bit too -- I'm pretty sure they got Tokugawa Ieyasu and his son Iemitsu's stats mixed up.

Cheers.
 
Originally posted by Medicine Man
Laex is right about the EEP by the way. They have some very interesting events and alternate history scenarios set up in that mod. Best of all, you can install the EEP without screwing up your regular GC. It's pretty much a win-win.

My problem is that I sometimes end up modding things myself -- and I never know when to stop making changes. As soon as 1.06b is released, I'm going to make some techgroup changes. The OE and Poland are going into the Latin group until the early 1600s and Nippon is going into Muslim group at the start of the Sengoku Jidai. I may also modify the Japanese leaders a bit too -- I'm pretty sure they got Tokugawa Ieyasu and his son Iemitsu's stats mixed up.

Cheers.
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Are you going to use my suggestion and tie the Polish tech group change to "Struggle for Royal Power" or do you have some other one to tie it to? The Liberum Veto might be an option, but then, you don't have any chance to keep your techgroup that way, and I think they should be able to keep it be pre-emptively attacking the thing that caused their downfall, the growing power of the nobility and the weakening of the monarch.
 
I may implement my own mod according to your suggestions, Kat, although I'm not sure if I'll give them the option to avoid the drop to torthodox. I usually do a similar thing to the Ottos, the very best they can do is avoid plunging into the muslim techgroup but they will lose their latin advantage. Dealing with stubborn tech advances is just part of playing in eastern Europe.

Actually, my ideal mod would have separate events for the human and AI players. I'd probably allow the AI Poland to keep his latin tech by taking Option C on the Struggle for Royal Power. A Human Poland on the other hand would have to jump through a few more hoops. What hoops, I don't know yet. I'll have to look at the Polish events again.

For the Ottos, I'd probably do what they did in the EEP. If you reign in the Beys in 1615, you drop into the torthodox techgroup, otherwise you drop into the muslim techgroup. Again, I'd make more lenient versions of these events for the AI. I like my AI Ottos to have torthodox techgroup for the entire game, with a small chance of staying latin. What I haven't decided yet is if I'd reproduce the techgroup changes for the later two decentralization events. It'd be nice to force the player to keep fighting with the Beys -- but creating AI versions of each event is a bit of a hassle.

All food for thought.
 
I have put my OE into latin tech as well....but I find from HO play that having them keep latin until 1615 will make them be techleaders with france right up to 1615 which I find very wrong! - therefor I have edited the Veneto-OE conflict event so that OE will drop into the orthodox techgroup if he refuse to secede Alexandria to Venice! ....this also ensures that a stupid ai choosing option b) will atleast get some 80-50yrs worth of latin tech in return for handing over Alexandria! Or in return from NOT having conquered the Mamelukes at all! ;)

(generally I like to try to balance the b) options more....so that the ai doesnt screw itself totally 15% of the time.
 
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