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Incompetent

Euroweenie in Exile
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Sep 22, 2003
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Loading up as the Teutonic Order, I noticed that the events file dries up abruptly at the end of the 16th century. I don't know if ArchDuke or anyone else has a plan for part 2 of the events, but if not, I've got some ideas which I could flesh out if they would be of use.

- 17th century: Time of great tribulation for the Order. They get a succession of weak Grand Masters and nationalist/anti-Catholic revolts in Poland and Russia. This leads to a crisis of faith as opinion becomes more and more polarised over how to recover the Order's former glory, culminating in a civil war between the White-coats (who want to return to the 'good old days' of crusading and converting the heretics) and the Grey-coats and their non-Germanic allies (who want to secularise the Order and focus on the economy) - if the Grey-coats were disbanded early on, the 'Grey' side will consist mostly of non-German merchants.

Default options for the AI will depend on how well the Order has performed military in the past - a strong Order with moderate BB will stay White, a weak order or one with dangerously high BB will go Grey. What happens next depends on who wins. Both sides get massive DP changes upon victory, as you might expect: something like +LAND, +SERF, +ARIST, +QUAL, -INNO for the White-coats, and -ARIST, +INNO, -SERF, -QUAL for the Grey-coats.

- White-coat victory: The Order gets a fair number of strong generals over the remainder of the game, and its monarchs have good MIL scores. They get events sparking wars against some of their non-Catholic neighbours (by this stage, they might well find ALL their neighbours are heretics!), eg the chance to subjugate Finland and install a puppet Catholic government there. Also, they can institute a Spanish-style inquisition and convert some of the remaining heretics in their realm, at a cost to tax value.

- Grey-coat victory: future monarchs have good ADM scores but poor MIL scores, and the Order gets very few generals. However, they do get classic 'economic development' events, and also events which allow them to reconcile with their neighbours, losing BB and improving relations in return for giving up some excessive conquests (eg if the Order somehow ended up with ruthenian lands, they'd have to hand those back in order to reconcile with Ukraine).

The wider strategic picture would be that the Order would be weak in the 17th century, and their neighbours could even get 'Partition of Poland'-style events, so that the Order gets attacked by several neighbours at once, but if they survive to about 1700, then either the Greys reconcile with their enemies (who in turn drop the extra cores they got) or the Whites fight back and recover their lost provinces by force. After that the Order should become a fairly strong country, either economically or militarily, for the last 100 or so years of the game.
 
That sounds good for me, but:

1. Faction victory events - what about centralization? In my opinion, the White Coats would make it higher (Grand Masters-despots), and the Grey coats would lower it (organisation Hansa-like).
I think You've commonly forgotten about that, Kind Sir...

2. White Coats' aggressive war policy - I think that they would try to conquer Gotland (because the Order owned it to 1408)...
 
Some good proposals from MattyG. I would like to add that if Grey group will win they should gain some extra explorers and start powerhouse colonization. They should also get some +NAVY and maybe some ships in events, becouse they don't have many and unfortunately, they don't build many new ones. If they have fleet, they shoud also gain some admirals for their fleet. Grey-coats are merchants so if they achieve a victory there could be an event with +FREE TRADE and if the Order is secularized they could maybe change religion to Calvin which is very good for merchants. Of course in some events they get some provs converted for the easier start.
 
Maybe an event changing them to Baltic Federation or something like that if they become protestants, Teutonic Order was after all a catholic crusader order. Also Hansa could get events to vassalize them if they're weak and protestants.
 
Some good ideas here, but one thing to avoid would be turning a 'grey' Order into a clone of the Hansa. Also, ideally the choice would be balanced, so whether you backed the Greys or the Whites would depend on your playing style. Here's my take:

Religion: The Greys might not be as fanatical as the Whites, but they'd still be predominately Catholic. I don't like late-game conversions in EU2, as only really drastic measures will make the AI stick to the new religion (since they'll have converted several provinces to Catholic), and a human player who plans to convert would never, ever leave it later than 1600 before doing so.

Exploration: Good idea - the Order will be making up for lost time, so we can safely give the Greys very good explorers indeed. Perhaps they should focus on places neglected by the other AIs, such as Australia or Easterm Siberia - they're mostly going to be picking up whatever scraps are left anyway.

Economic development: Certainly trade would be a part of it, but unlike the Hansa, the Order is supposed to control a large amount of good farmland, and the population is mostly rural. As such I think at least some of the bonuses should come in the form of tax value and improvements in infrastructure, with events about what to do with the lands of the pro-White families, and possibly urbanisation and immigration.

DP Changes: Definitely a bit less centralised than the White version (but not totally decentralised - that would be too extreme a change from the old system, and it would hurt the country's economy and tech) and a bit more naval (but again, not entirely naval - they are still to a large extent a land power as a result of geography). They wouldn't necessarily be pro-free trade, but I suppose they'll need it to help with colonisation.
 
OK, I've elaborated on my ideas somewhat. Here's a list of events, together with descriptions. I could code them upand fill in the details, but it'd take a while, and I ought to be doing work at the moment.

Warning: long.


Gerhard the Firm (1615)
"From the moment he joined the Order, there was no doubt in anyne's mind that one day Gerhard von Feuchtwangen would lead it. His extreme devotion to the Order and the Church, the incredible discipline he showed and fostered on the battlefield and even his imposing physical stature marked him out as destined for greatness. True to expectations, when Gerhard became Grand Master he exercised almost complete control over the Order itself, and instituted new laws which subjugated more and more aspects of everyday life in the realm to the commands of the government and the clergy."
- +CENT, -INNO, +SERF

The Death of Gerhard the Firm (1641)
"Gerhard's successors tried to continue his policies and emulate his style, but without Gerhard's skill and resolve. As a result, people began to recognise the new 'firmness' for what it was: the tyranny of religious fanatics. Working with the Church, the Knights managed to suppress much of the dissent, but their brutal methods of doing so only inflamed peoples' anger. The situation could not be contained forever..."
- Suppress all dissent: national RR
- Dismantle the instruments of oppression, and try to compromise with the Order's critics: sleeps Civil War events, but leads to an aristocratic takeover - see post 24 below. Some DP changes occur straight away.

National Revolt in Poland (early 1655)
"Life was tough for those living in the lands of the Teutonic Order in the 17th century, but this was especially true for Poles. The old Polish aristocracy were systematically stripped of their land and privileges, as they were seen as a threat to stability, while all levels of Polish society faced a terror campaign aimed at rooting out the 'vile and wicked heresies' that were believed by the Order to be endemic in Poland. Eventually a group of szlachta met in Krakow in 1655 to discuss what should be done. The result of the meeting was a 'Declaration of the Rights of the Poland', and soon there was a violent independence movement in the country, which set about lynching tax collectors, burning churches, and destroying everything that symbolised Teutonic rule. Over time the Catholic faith itself came to be seen as a cause of Poland's suffering, and Poles converted in their droves to the radical teachings of travelling preachers from Germany and Hungary."
- province RR; lose polish culture; a few provinces convert to Protestant/Reformed

Polish revolt successful! (late 1655 onwards)
"Once it became clear that the Order was losing ground to the rebels, what authority it had left in Poland disintegrated. Even local priests, previously the backbone of Teutonic power, now supported the new state. If the Order wanted to rule Poland again, it would have to conquer it afresh."
- triggered by Polish existence; causes Polish provs to defect to the new state

The Boyars' revolt (1663, or triggered by above)
"Like their Polish counterparts, those Russians who did not convert to Catholicism faced severe restrictions on travel, land ownership and much else besides. The revolt against the Order was slower to get organised, with the Russian noblemen initially looking only to the interests of themselves and their families, but eventually they realised they would have to band together to succeed, inspired by events in Poland. Any claims the Order or the Catholic Church had to rulership of the northern lands was slipping away, and many who had nominally converted to Catholicism for personal advantage now revealed their true beliefs."
- province RR; lose russian culture and crusader cores; a few provinces convert to Orthodox

Russian revolt successful! (1658 onwards)
"Teutonic power in Russia had always been tenuous; now it had evaporated. The formation of a Russian League would forever change the relationship between the Order and its northern neighbours."
- triggered by Russian existence; causes Russian provs to defect to the new state

A Fork in the Road (1671)
"Within the Order itself, all agreed that the current crisis was grave, but there was much disagreement about how to resolve it. Opinion eventually coalesced around two groups. The 'Whites', who had most support among the Order's warriors and priests, believed that to save itself, the Order had to return to its roots as a crusading order, emphasising discipline, the Catholic faith and martial prowess. The 'Greys', led by the charismatic young Christian von Schafenberg, advocated a greater opening up of the Order to the locals, and believed that the Order would best regain the respect of God and the people by improving their welfare and bringing peace to the realm. The argument culminated in the appointment of the pro-White Wilhelm von Feuchtwangen as Grand Master, and the mass explusion of Greys from the order. But instead of accepting defeat, the Greys looked for support among the local populace, and started to raise an army of their own. The unrest had finally become a civil war."
Support the Whites: 'civil war' AI; POL and RUS declare independence, with all provinces of the appropriate culture ceded to them; high RR until 1676
Support the Greys: 'civil war' AI; Massive desertions from army; country becomes KUR; TO declares independence and gets a large army with a couple of good leaders; low RR until 1682; province RR reduced (but not eliminated) in Poland and Russia

A sad day for the Order (if player has chosen White) (1671 onwards; automatic after 1689 if neither side has won)
"Although the Whites had some early successes, it became clear that the embattled Order was in no position to restore the power it once had. Finally the Order capitulated, and gave up most of its land to the new countries emerging out of the wreckage. Never again would the Teutonic Order have authority over large swathes of Eastern Europe."
- triggered by the TO failing to control most of its 'heartland' provinces; POL, LIT and RUS declare independence, and TO cedes most of its land to these. Most White/grey events slept, and TO lingers on in obscurity (with a default AI)

A Violent End (if player has chosen Grey) (1674 onwards; automatic after 1694 if neither side has won)
"The Grey cause was embodied in Christian von Schafenberg, and in the end it died with him. When became clear that the rebels were never going to achieve final victory over the Whites, the forces that made up 'Baltland' split along religious and ethnic lines and started to fight each other. Although this should have played into the hands of the Whites, they too ultimately failed to bring unity, and ever afterward the lands of northeastern Europe would be marred by religious and cultural strife."
- triggered by the death of the leader 'Christian von Schafenberg', and the TO controlling any signifcant amount of land; POL, LIT and RUS declare independence, and KUR cedes most of its land to these. Most White/grey events slept, and TO/KUR linger on in obscurity (with default AIs)

Poland is subdued (White) (1671 onwards)
"After many a fierce battle, the rebellious Poles were eventually brought once more under the control of the Order."
- triggered by the TO controlling most of Poland; causes Poland to be inherited, but with high province RR

Lithuania is subdued (White) (1671 onwards)
"After many a fierce battle, the rebellious Lithuanians were eventually brought once more under the control of the Order."
- triggered by Lithuania owning little; causes it to be inherited

Wilhelm the Brave restores control (1674 onwards)
"It took several years and many battles, but eventually the armies of Wilhelm von Feuchtwangen triumphed over all their domestic foes and forced the exhausted rebels to admit defeat. Despite his ancestry, Wilhelm turned out not to be as tyrannical as had been feared, and soon enough he won not just the obedience, but also the loyalty of nobles and peasants alike. This was the beginning of a new era for the Order, one in which religion and the army would once again become great forces for unity and pride.

One of Wilhelm's first acts after the war was to expand the army by allowing non-German Catholics to serve in the main forces, rather than just as auxiliaries, and by increasing soldiers' pay. This was paid for by the revenues generated by lands formerly belonging to the ringleaders of the rebellion, now mostly under direct control of the Order."
- requires that Poland and Lithuania don't exist, that TO controls key provinces, and that the bad event has not fired; TO inherits POL and LIT; removes province RR and restores polish culture; some free military goodies; TO gets new aggressive AI

Christian the Wise brings peace (1682 onwards)
"Although Christian von Schafenberg had taken up arms against the Order, it was with reluctance, as he wanted to preserve it, unlike some of the allies he had later acquired. But once it became clear to the Whites that military victory was impossible, Christian was able to achieve almost everything he set out to do, thanks to his extraordinary powers of persuasion. The Greys were reinstated into the Order; Wilhelm stepped down in favour of Christian; and following Christian's repeal of most of the laws introduced by Gerhard the Firm and his dismantling of many of the institutions of oppression, even the Polish nationalists were convinced of the virtues of a new, more inclusive Order. A great calm descended over the realm, as people focused on rebuilding, rather than fighting each other."
- require that the bad event has not fired, and that KUR is at peace, and that the TO isn't too big if it exists; KUR inherits TO, POL and LIT and becomes TO; capital moves back to Riga; get negative national RR for a time, and a bonus to DIP until Christian's death (this guy is superhumanly persuasive); triggers 'Spoils of War'; TO gets new peaceful/colonial AI

Trade through the Sund recovers (1671 onwards - once the civil war is over)
"During the civil war, the powers around the Sund had conspired to limit passage in and out of the Baltic Sea for ships trading with the Teutonic Order. One way another, this blockade was eventually lifted, and so Baltic merchants could once again trade more freely with the wider world. The Teutonic Order took full advantage of this, and a number of successful trading ventures brought them great wealth."
- requires TO to own Sjaelland or a Grey Victory; gives free trade investment and cash

Recession (1785-1799)
"Exposure to the fluctuations of the world market had its dangers as well as its benefits. When a large trade bubble burst in the late 18th century, it caused terrible damage to the Baltic economy."
requires low MERC and high trade tech (more likely for Greys)
- At least we can help the merchants in Riga: mixture of the two below, but the COT survives
- There's nothing we can do: lose a manu, cash, COT in Riga and trade investment; lose stab; revolts
- Sell land to prop up all businesses: huge +MERC; inflation; lose tax value

White events

The end of Russian independence (Wilhelm on the throne)
"Now that Wilhelm was firmly in control in the South, he could turn his attention northwards. The rebellious Russians were swiftly defeated by his veteran forces."
- requires that Russia controls nothing; RUS gets inherited

The reconquest of Russia (Wilhelm on the throne)
"With the final defeat of the Boyars, Russia was once again under the control of the Teutonic Order. Grand Master Wilhelm wasted no time in restoring the apparatus of government in the north, and soon Teutonic authority there was stronger there than ever before."
- requires no RUS, peace, the success of the original Russian crusade, and that TO owns key provinces; TO gets russian culture and crusader cores back

Expansion on the borders (1679)
"Although its army was now one of the most well-drilled in Europe, the Teutonic Order was vulnerable to attack on all sides, and surrounded by natural enemies. The Grand Master also wanted to cement his power internally. Wilhelm's solution was an audacious show of strength: by laying claim to many areas on the fringes of the realm, sometimes on the flimsiest pretexts, he planned humble the Order's neighbours and create a 'buffer zone', while giving himself and his soldiers ample opportunities to win glory for God and the Order."
- We'll teach our neighbours a lesson! : Gain BB; +CENT, +OFF; cores on Silesia, Danzig, southern Poland, Chernigov, Tver, Tula and Kursk; worsen relations
- Just bolster our existing defences: -OFF; free fortresses

Power in the Baltic (1684)
"Security on the frontiers would achieve nothing if the Order's enemies could simply sail up to the Gulf of Riga and land straight in the heart of the realm. Though initially disdainful of the navy, Wilhelm was eventually persuaded that taking control of the Baltic would enormously strengthen the Teutonic Order's position."
- We shall dominate the Baltic! : Gain BB; lose cash and tax value; gain a naval manu; gain a shipyard and ships in Riga; gain cores on Gotland, Ingermanland and Sjaelland; -LAND; worsen relations
- Focus on land power: +LAND; free land investment and troops

The legacy of Wilhelm the Brave (1689 - Wilhelm's death)
"Wilhelm von Feuchtwangen, like his great uncle Gerhard before him, was a man of incredible discipline and courage. Unlike his great uncle however, he would be remembered reverently, chiefly for his military career: not just his legendary exploits on the battlefield, but his forging of a large, well-trained, well-equipped and disciplined army that was the envy of Europe. Wilhelm the Brave became a figure of almost cult-like devotion, especially among the country's warriors and rulers. This ensured that the army would always get the best men and as much money as it could want, but had the unfortunate effect of causing the leadership to neglect economic development and innovation."
- loads of free military goodies, but tech drops to Orthodox

The Holy Inquisition (1692)
"Wilhelm himself had made concessions to non-Catholics for the sake of unity, but his successors did not feel bound by these, arguing that they were only ever meant to be temporary. In 1692, Grandmaster Paul von Feuchtwangen announced that the Holy Inquisition would restart with renewed vigour, giving the Church generous funding to do so, and that the powers available to inquisitors in the time of Gerhard the Firm would be restored."
-Restore the Inquisition: -cash; lots of free conversions, but at a cost of revolts and reduced tax value and population; -INNO
-Stop this madness: lose VP

The Finnish crusade (1721)
"In 1721, the Grand Master decided that the time was ripe to pursue a final victory over one of the Order and Catholicism's more persistent foes: Finland. This was an 'unofficial' crusade, as the Pope did not give his blessings, but seeing as he could do little about it, he didn't offer much criticism either. Victory for the Order would strike a fatal blow to Orthodoxy in the north of Europe."
requires Finland to exist, and the TO to be in reasonable shape
- Crusade! : gain BB; CB on FIN for 30 years; war with FIN
- They're not worth it: gain stab

The Order conquers Finland (FIN) (1721-1751)
"The Finns had gone to war confident of repelling the invaders, but in the end they proved no match for the crusading Teutons. The Finnish king surrendered unconditionally: under the terms of the peace, the Finnish ruling family were allowed to keep their kingdom, but only on condition that they drop forever all claims to rule outside of Finland, and that they swear allegiance to the Pope in Rome as well as to the Grand Master. The people of Finland never forgave their rulers for their complicity."
- requires that either FIN is a vassal of TO, or TO controls much of Finland; changes religion to Catholic; lose a load of VP; cedes all provinces outside Finnish heartland to TO; lose cores and russian culture; permanent province RR in Finnish heartland

Crusade is successful! (1721 onwards)
"The crusade against Finland was a resounding success. Catholicism reigned supreme in the north and Finland was now little more than a client state to the Order."
- requires that FIN and TO are at peace, and that 'The Order conquers Finland' has fired; major VP; makes FIN a vassal

Ad Gloriam Dei (1760 onwards)
"While many were horrified by the means employed by the Teutonic Order, few could denigrate its achievements. The Order had triumphed over its enemies time and time again, and many were beginning to wonder if it could ever be beaten, with rumours either that the Knights were favoured by God or they had made a pact with the Devil, depending on the religious beliefs of those talking about them. One by one, the battered belligerents sought accommodations with the Order. At last the Grand Masters could turn their attention to easing some of the economic strain caused by ceasless conquest, safe in the knowledge that the Order had earned its place as one of the Great Powers of history."
- requires the TO to have taken most of their extra cores and conquered Finland or Russia; gives major +VP; +stab, -BB, +relations, +DIP for a while; restores Latin tech; -inflation

Wilhelm's Obsession (1793)
"With the benefit of hindsight, Wilhelm von Feuchtwangen was a poor choice of Grand Master, and would never have become one were it not for the near-hereditary grip the Feuchtwangen family had on the title. To make things worse, mesmerised by the adventures of his namesake and ancestor, Wilhelm became obsessed with the idea of launching a crusade to take back the Holy Land from the Muslims. The point had come when either Wilhelm would be allowed to launch his crusade (and many in the Order secretly hoped he'd die in the attempt) or he would be forcibly removed. Unfortunately there was little agreement on who should replace him, and the only candidate who could muster enough support was Johannes von Altenburg, a compromise candidate at best who'd have to make a great deal of concessions to the competing factions."
requires Jerusalem to be owned by a Muslim country (FAT,EGY and CAL are the most likely)
- Indulge him: gives a core on Jerusalem; gives ships and troops; lose cash
- Replace him: -CENT; lose lots of stab; Wilhelm replaced by a monarch who isn't quite as useless (but still mediocre)

Liberalism and the weakening of central authority (1799)
"While the Order had succeeded in slowing the spread of radical political ideas, it had not stopped them altogether, and with the weakness of recent Grand Masters, the calls for drastic reform were growing ever louder. The Grand Master was advised by some of his subordinates (who perhaps saw it as a way to get more power for themselves) that it would be a good idea to loosen the reins somewhat."
- Give in to demands: large -CENT; +INNO, -SERF, -ARIST; lose manpower
- Resist reform: small -CENT, revolts, RR

Grey events

The Spoils of War (follows on from Grey victory)
"Although the Order had returned to peace, the war had taken a terrible toll on its agricultural output. Whole families had been killed or fled, while many among the German ruling class especially, having supported the losing side, were sent into exile, with a few of the worst criminals executed as traitors. One way or another, vast areas of good arable land were lying fallow and abandoned.

There was much debate as to whom should receive the land, as no-one wanted to see so much of the country become the direct property of the Order. But one thing was certain: Grand Master Christian would insist that the land was divided and farmed in a productive and efficient manner, breaking with the medieval practices that had been in place before the war, to foster the prosperity of the realm for years to come."
- Redistribute among the local aristocracy: +ARIST, -CENT, +tax value
- Redistribute among the great German families: +ARIST, +CENT, -INNO, +tax value
- Give it to the people: -ARIST, -SERF, +INNO, +tax value

Reconciliation with Hungary (1686)
"Now that the lands of the Teutonic Order had purged their internal demons, the Grand Master turned to reconciling the order with its foreign neighbours. First on the list was Hungary, and the central obstacle to a lasting peace was the position of Poland. Unfortunately, Poland had been so riven by religious turmoil that uniting it now would be impossible, but Christian did persuade the Hungarians to agree to the most practical solution: Poland would be divided on religious lines, with Catholics encouraged to settle in the Teuton-controlled North, while Calvinists and others would be welcomed by Hungary in the South."
- Propose a fair division of Poland: southern two Polish provs, and area south of that, ceded to Hungary; lose BB; 'unnatural' reformed provinces go back to Catholic
- the status quo is fine: sleep HUN event

Reconciliation with the TO (HUN)
- Do as we have agreed: cede northern provinces to TO, drop cores, improve relations, lose BB
- Renege on the deal: gain severe BB, worsen relations

The fate of Russia (1688)
"Russia had become a battleground for Finns, Ukrainians and Teutons, as well as Russian nationalists, ever since Grand Master Johann von Tiefen launched his ill-advised crusade two centuries earlier. In another display of his powers to bring peace to the world, Christian convinced all concerned that the only fair solution was to let the Russians themselves decide what they wanted. By now most Russian leaders were set on joining a new independent state, but in the provinces which remained loyal to the Order (notably the city of Pskov), this removed the last barrier to full acceptance of the Order's right to rule.
- Let the Russians decide: gives independence to Russia; lose BB; improve relations. Pskov either Baltifies, or TO gets Russian culture (might be a bit overpowered).
- the status quo is fine: sleep FIN, UKR and STE events

Response events for FIN, UKR and STE

The Baltic peace conference (1694)
"The Baltic peace conference was one of Christian von Schafenberg's last achievements (as he died later that year), but also one of his finest. Christian had observed that centuries of wars and squabbles between the powers surrounding the Baltic sea had been over a narrow strip of land around the Gulf of Finland, and invited delegates from Finland, the Hanseatic League and the Union of Kalmar, as well as local leaders, to help resolve the dispute once and for all. By the end of negotiations in April 1694, Christian had managed to persuade each power in turn that even if they took the disputed land, it would only invite the jealously and plotting of the other powers, and that the only safe state was for the whole region to fall under the protection of the Order. In return for dropping their territorial claims, the three powers across the Baltic would each receive a generous share of revenues from the region. Even the Hansa were persuaded to abandon Novgorod, as its trading importance had waned markedly in recent years."
requires that none of HSA,KAL or FIN own all three provinces in disputed region
- Propose Teutonic control, with compensation: -cash, -tax value in provinces, -BB, +relations
- the status quo is fine: sleep HSA, KAL and FIN events
- either choice removes the COT in Novgorod (if it's still there) and puts one in Riga (if it's not there already)

Response events for HSA, KAL, FIN and whoever owns the provinces: cores are lost and revenues received by the majors without any choice, but the owners of the province can choose whether or not to sell their land to the Order.

Across the Oceans (1700 onwards)
"The Teutonic Order had been slow to join the race for overseas colonies and trading posts, but it soon made up for lost time. The revenues generated by trade and goods from across the oceans were invested wisely, and did a great deal to boost both the economy of the Order and the shipbuilding industry, which had emerged to satisfy the new demand for ocean-going ships."
- requires the TO to have claimed a few colonies and achieved a certain level of trade tech; gives a shipyard, a refinery and trade investment

The Domestic Reforms of Boguslaw Kepinski (1728)
"It was testament to how much the Order had changed that Boguslaw Kepinski, a Pole from the minor nobility, was now Grand Treasurer of the Order. Moreover this was much to the Order's credit, as he proved a financial and administrative genius."
- Reform the economy without changing its overall character: +tax, +infra, large -inflation (the AI could well need this)
- We need a radical overhaul: +CENT, population and tax value is concentrated in the cities, -stab, RR, gain goods manus, +infra

The Election of 1736
"After the death of the long-lived Hans von Neckarbruecke, the Order had to decide on who would replace him as Grand Master. The most capable candidate was clearly the Grand Treasurer, Boguslaw Kepinski, but even now many in the Order were reluctant to see a non-German lead them. Their preferred candidate was the high-born general Karl von Tiefen."
- Elect Boguslaw: -stab, and lose Karl as a leader, but Boguslaw's a good monarch; +INNO
- Elect Karl: +stab, and get an average monarch but a decent general; -INNO

The Shrine of St Christian (1764-1789)
"During his lifetime, Christian von Schafenberg had been seen as a great leader by many, but he had enemies as well as friends. In the decades after his death, however, the enormity of his achievements slowly began to sink in and knowledge of them spread. Eventually he was seen all over Europe as a great man of peace, and his tomb in Riga became a major site of pilgrimage. In 1764, on the 70th anniversary of Christian's death, the Pope took the final step of declaring Christian to be a saint. This of course could only improve the standing of the Order he had once led."
- requires TO to be at peace, and to have reasonably low BB; gives a free FAA, +stab and random good relations

The Vilnius Pamphlet (1802)
"In 1802, a revolutionary pamphlet, entitled 'A New Constitution for the Baltic State', by an unknown author but believed to have originated in Vilnius, swept the lands of the Teutonic Order. Unlike many such pamphlets, the document was not full of empty rhetoric, but instead called for and described a new system of government, in which most of the power would be shared between a 'Baltic Assembly', elected according to population from all provinces of the country, and a 'Speaker' appointed by said assembly. Such was the sudden surge of support for the pamphlet among the land's notables, and such was its eloquence, that some even thought it was the work of St Christian.

The current Grand Master was certainly open to new ideas, and had long been looking for ways to bring the government in line with the wishes of the people. Indeed, he felt that the proposed constitution had great merit, even though he would be mostly relegating himself to a ceremonial role in the new republic. He could tell that this could be a great turning-point in history, and that 'Baltland' could set an example that would resonate across the world. Still, radical change always had its opponents."
- Adopt the constitution - long live the Baltic Republic!: country becomes KUR; large -SERF, +INNO, -ARIST; final monarch, 'Baltic Assembly', is quite good (7/8/4 ?); revolts, desertions and -stab; short period of high RR; gain a FAA in Vilnius and VP
- Only minor reforms are needed: smaller DP changes; final monarchs are fairly average; low but persistent RR
 
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Very impressive, Incompetant. I particularly like the feel of the event wherein the Order becomes the military envy of Europe but drops to orthodox tech group. Good flavour and balance. I don't know the Order or its realworld history enough to comment on much else, but the flow of event seems very strong.
 
MattyG said:
Very impressive, Incompetant. I particularly like the feel of the event wherein the Order becomes the military envy of Europe but drops to orthodox tech group. Good flavour and balance. I don't know the Order or its realworld history enough to comment on much else, but the flow of event seems very strong.

I don't know anything about the real Order either, but I figured a) its control of a huge chunk of Europe for over 200 years would have changed it beyond recognition compared to the real Order (which was historically beaten by the Poles and Lithuanians in 1410 - the point of departure in Abe, as far as I can tell), b) a civil war would bring great changes of its own. So I suppose we have something of a blank slate, within reason.

One thing I haven't sorted out is what to do with German culture, as it's not something to be handed out lightly (ATM the TO will get it before 1671 if they launch a crusade against the Calvinists). Here's one possible setup:

- Greys lose it automatically and can't get it back (we don't want them launching a massive invasion of Germany!)

- Whites lose it at the same time as the Greys, but later get an event like this:
The German Order?
requires a White victory, the TO to own a lot of german provinces, AND to have converted them to Catholic.
"Now that it had a large indigenous German Catholic population, for the first time in centuries the Order had an opportunity to entrench the German character of the Order, extending the predominance of Germans in the Order itself down to quite minor members of the clergy and the civil service. This would certainly convince recently conquered Germans of their central place within the Order, but would permanently alienate the Poles, Balts and Russians currently under the Order's control."
- Entrench the German character of the Order: gain german culture, gain a few cores in Germany (mostly provinces you already own) but lose russian culture, suffer severe province RR in the North and lose cores there.
- The Order is not just for Germans: not a lot happens, maybe a few revolts.
 
The only reason I mentioned I knew little about the order was to explain in part why my contribution was so meagre.

Ah, German culture. One of EU2-Europe's thorniest issues.

My personal feeling is that German culture should be exclusive. If an event offers it to you, then you can accept but lose all other culture groups. But that's me, and I doubt many would support such an idea.

So, hows about this as a compromise ...

Holding together divergeant (and some would say, antagonistic) cultural groups will be extremely difficult for the Order. So, if they accept german culture, the tensions and difficulties that this will cause can be represented by a permanent - yes, permanent - revoltrisk modifier or +2. Revolts more like, province incomes lower. Things that would otherwise simmer are more likely to erupt and the cost of endless compromise is partly captured in the income reduction Which would not be felt when everything is happy (Stability 2 and 3) but would emerge when the cracks start to show (stability 0 and 1).

I think I will use this approach in the material I am working on with the Zapotec ....

Matty
 
MattyG said:
So, hows about this as a compromise ...

Holding together divergeant (and some would say, antagonistic) cultural groups will be extremely difficult for the Order. So, if they accept german culture, the tensions and difficulties that this will cause can be represented by a permanent - yes, permanent - revoltrisk modifier or +2. Revolts more like, province incomes lower. Things that would otherwise simmer are more likely to erupt and the cost of endless compromise is partly captured in the income reduction Which would not be felt when everything is happy (Stability 2 and 3) but would emerge when the cracks start to show (stability 0 and 1).

I think I will use this approach in the material I am working on with the Zapotec ....

Matty

That's one of the key themes running through the Civil War: to hold itself together, the Order has to forge its own national identity, either through religion and military prowess (the Whites) or through a message of tolerance and peaceful development (the Greys, and also the route Poland-Lithuania pursued historically with some success: in much of the Commonwealth, being 'Polish' came to be a mark of status or national loyalty rather than ethnicity). Perhaps I need to make this process more explicit in the descriptions.

Your compromise is quite similar to mine, though I'd focus the RR more on areas where the TO's authority is weak, ie Poland and Russia. High RR in a few provinces would be much harder for the player to get rid of, whereas low blanket RR would be ignored in peace-time and cause problems in wartime, which would undermine the point of picking the Whites in the first place.

I don't think a completely German-only TO would be a good idea though in terms of regional balance: it would cause them to neglect the East, where they're a key counterweight against Ukraine. Also, we already have 3 Germanocentric powers, so we don't really need more.
 
I think we make the player chose once again.

If the revoltrisk willl be based on provinces, then let's not assume that they should be the Polish or Russian ones.

Action A would grant German culture, but still favour the Baltic traditions, giving the moderate RR in the German provinces.

Action B would grant German culture and favour the new German influences, moving the RR to the eastern provinces.

Action C would be to reject German culture, lowering RR in the east for decades and raising it in whichever German provinces they own.

Juicy choices are the heart and soul of good event writing and great gaming.
 
MattyG said:
I think we make the player chose once again.

If the revoltrisk willl be based on provinces, then let's not assume that they should be the Polish or Russian ones.

Action A would grant German culture, but still favour the Baltic traditions, giving the moderate RR in the German provinces.

Action B would grant German culture and favour the new German influences, moving the RR to the eastern provinces.

Action C would be to reject German culture, lowering RR in the east for decades and raising it in whichever German provinces they own.

Juicy choices are the heart and soul of good event writing and great gaming.

I agree that juicy choices are good, but there's a few problems with this setup:

A is too easy - going German should be a really drastic step as the TO, otherwise they'll have no incentive to follow the 'natural' path. I should point out that it's not as if Germany is a wasteland for those without the culture - it's rich enough that many players don't care, and taking chunks of Germany is a common Polish strategy in SP. What we're talking about is whether we allow the TO to make an absolute fortune out of the place, compared to their poor Baltic heartland. German culture doesn't mean Germans get treated equally - it'll mean that the players cherishes his Germans more than anyone else.

For Option C, do you mean simply not getting German as a national culture (which is the default for the TO) or aggressively rejecting all that is German? The latter would be nothing short of a revolution, as the Grand Master is probably German, as are most of the Knights, and Germans control much of the nation's wealth.

I'd say the player makes a choice in the civil war. If they want to aggressively promote Germans, they back the Whites, but can expect to pay the price in the East. If they want to de-Germanise the German Order, they back the Greys (the default option in several Grey events indicates that the power of Germans in the Order is waning, as will their leader file), and instead of capturing rich German provs, they make their home provinces rich. If they want to take a neutral stance, they can back either side, but can't expect to get huge incomes from German provinces without putting in an effort. It's a bit like the Kaliphate, which can get Persian culture, but makes a great sacrifice in doing so (they drop a tech group and either lose masses of centralisation or turn Shia!)
 
Leaving the German discussion aside for a moment, here are the monarchs to go with my events (apologies for breaking up the thread like this):

# As per the old file, up to and including Johann von Rotenstein.

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31715 }
startdate = {
day = 8
month = october
year = 1615
}
deathdate = {
day = 17
month = july
year = 1641
}
name = "Gerhard von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 6
ADM = 8
MIL = 9
dormant = no
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31716 }
startdate = {
day = 17
month = july
year = 1641
}
deathdate = {
day = 10
month = october
year = 1648
}
name = "Paul von Plauen"
DIP = 4
ADM = 2
MIL = 5
dormant = no
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31717 }
startdate = {
day = 10
month = october
year = 1648
}
deathdate = {
day = 15
month = august
year = 1665
}
name = "Dietrich von Altenburg"
DIP = 3
ADM = 1
MIL = 3
dormant = no
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31718 }
startdate = {
day = 15
month = august
year = 1665
}
deathdate = {
day = 3
month = february
year = 1671
}
name = "Martin von Russdorf"
DIP = 2
ADM = 4
MIL = 2
dormant = no
remark = "Abdicates"
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31719 }
startdate = {
day = 3
month = february
year = 1671
}
deathdate = {
day = 23
month = may
year = 1689
}
name = "Wilhelm von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 4
ADM = 4
MIL = 9
dormant = no
remark = "Civil War version"
}


# Grey Grand Masters (default)

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31720 }
startdate = {
day = 3
month = february
year = 1671
}
deathdate = {
day = 15
month = october
year = 1694
}
name = "Christian von Schafenberg"
DIP = 9
ADM = 8
MIL = 6
dormant = yes
remark = "The master of diplomacy"
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31721 }
startdate = {
day = 15
month = october
year = 1694
}
deathdate = {
day = 20
month = september
year = 1736
}
name = "Hans von Neckarbruecke"
DIP = 7
ADM = 7
MIL = 8
dormant = no
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31722 }
startdate = {
day = 20
month = september
year = 1736
}
deathdate = {
day = 3
month = january
year = 1753
}
name = "Boguslaw Kepinski"
DIP = 7
ADM = 9
MIL = 4
dormant = no
remark = "Polish"
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31723 }
startdate = {
day = 20
month = september
year = 1736
}
deathdate = {
day = 13
month = november
year = 1759
}
name = "Karl von Tiefen"
DIP = 5
ADM = 5
MIL = 8
dormant = yes
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31724 }
startdate = {
day = 3
month = january
year = 1753
}
deathdate = {
day = 9
month = april
year = 1770
}
name = "Oskar von Altenburg"
DIP = 8
ADM = 6
MIL = 3
dormant = no
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31725 }
startdate = {
day = 9
month = april
year = 1770
}
deathdate = {
day = 12
month = july
year = 1778
}
name = "Michael von Rotenstein"
DIP = 6
ADM = 6
MIL = 4
dormant = no
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31726 }
startdate = {
day = 12
month = july
year = 1778
}
deathdate = {
day = 18
month = march
year = 1793
}
name = "Christian von Altmark"
DIP = 6
ADM = 8
MIL = 5
dormant = no
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31727 }
startdate = {
day = 18
month = march
year = 1793
}
deathdate = {
day = 4
month = march
year = 1804
}
name = "Albrecht von Kniprode"
DIP = 9
ADM = 8
MIL = 3
dormant = no
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31728 }
startdate = {
day = 4
month = march
year = 1804
}
deathdate = {
day = 6
month = december
year = 1809
}
name = "Peter von Neckarbruecke"
DIP = 4
ADM = 5
MIL = 4
dormant = no
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31729 }
startdate = {
day = 6
month = december
year = 1809
}
deathdate = {
day = 29
month = august
year = 1825
}
name = "Jan Rejevski"
DIP = 6
ADM = 4
MIL = 3
dormant = no
}

# White Grand Masters

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31730 }
startdate = {
day = 3
month = february
year = 1671
}
deathdate = {
day = 23
month = may
year = 1689
}
name = "Wilhelm von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 6
ADM = 7
MIL = 9
dormant = yes
remark = "post-civil war version"
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31731 }
startdate = {
day = 23
month = may
year = 1689
}
deathdate = {
day = 17
month = february
year = 1705
}
name = "Paul von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 5
ADM = 8
MIL = 8
dormant = yes
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31732 }
startdate = {
day = 17
month = february
year = 1705
}
deathdate = {
day = 14
month = january
year = 1724
}
name = "Heinrich von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 6
ADM = 6
MIL = 9
dormant = yes
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31733 }
startdate = {
day = 14
month = january
year = 1724
}
deathdate = {
day = 14
month = january
year = 1728
}
name = "Guenther von Sternberg"
DIP = 5
ADM = 4
MIL = 7
dormant = yes
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31734 }
startdate = {
day = 14
month = january
year = 1728
}
deathdate = {
day = 14
month = january
year = 1743
}
name = "Karl von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 4
ADM = 5
MIL = 9
dormant = yes
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31735 }
startdate = {
day = 14
month = january
year = 1743
}
deathdate = {
day = 28
month = november
year = 1758
}
name = "Christian von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 3
ADM = 5
MIL = 8
dormant = yes
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31736 }
startdate = {
day = 28
month = november
year = 1758
}
deathdate = {
day = 3
month = july
year = 1772
}
name = "Friedrich von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 7
ADM = 6
MIL = 7
dormant = yes
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31737 }
startdate = {
day = 3
month = july
year = 1772
}
deathdate = {
day = 5
month = may
year = 1779
}
name = "Klaus von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 3
ADM = 4
MIL = 6
dormant = yes
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31738 }
startdate = {
day = 5
month = may
year = 1779
}
deathdate = {
day = 5
month = may
year = 1790
}
name = "Michael von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 4
ADM = 3
MIL = 6
dormant = yes
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31739 }
startdate = {
day = 5
month = may
year = 1790
}
deathdate = {
day = 11
month = september
year = 1799
}
name = "Wilhelm von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 2
ADM = 1
MIL = 4
dormant = yes
remark = "May be deposed in 1793"
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31740 }
startdate = {
day = 2
month = march
year = 1793
}
deathdate = {
day = 22
month = august
year = 1804
}
name = "Johannes von Altenburg"
DIP = 3
ADM = 4
MIL = 6
dormant = yes
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31741 }
startdate = {
day = 11
month = september
year = 1799
}
deathdate = {
day = 18
month = march
year = 1832
}
name = "Maximilian von Feuchtwangen"
DIP = 5
ADM = 5
MIL = 7
dormant = yes
}
 
And here are some AIs:

White:

# preferred areas for expansion

continent = { Oceania }
region = { Australia Indonesia Siberia }
area = { ceylon papua kanguru botany maori tasmania lucon borneo celebes amur kamchatka hawaii }


# % of the time we prefer to establish a tradingpost if both are good.
tradingpost = 10

# The amount of provinces we try to colonize at the same time
expansion = 1 # not much of a coloniser, but might steal maps

# Bonus for areas to establish colonies adjacent to previous ones.
neighbour = 0

# Bonus/Penalty for establish colonies adjacent to other countries.
enemies = 0

# 100 = max trader rate, lesser means slower focus on sending a trader.
traders = 40

# 100 = Total monopolist, will refuse trade as much as possible.
monopoly = 50

# 100 = Total warmonger, 0 = absolute pacifist
war = 95
ferocity = no

#if possible we WILL go counter reform
counterreform = yes

#Which countries to conquer if possible. (to guide nation historically)
combat = { POL POD SMO TVE SUZ RYA RUS LIT KUR KAL FIN HUN HSA UKR } # Whites crave regional supremacy

#How important is it to gather troops close to base
base = 0.1
#How important is it to be as close to target position when gathering troops.
front = 5.0


#Evaluation factors for conquer plans
conquer =
{
# multiply enemy province value
enemy = 3.5
# multiplying supply factor
supply = 0.1
# factor for distance to not owner provinces
distance = 8.0
# factor for owned provines
owner = 10.0
# Multiplier for provinces not in supply.
notsupply = 4.5
# Multiplying the base constant for conquer.
base = 6.5
}

# Modifiers for garrison plans
garrison =
{
fortress = 1.0
strategic = 3.0
size = 1.0
supply = 2.0
war = 5.0
}

Grey:

# preferred areas for expansion (the old ones will mostly have been snapped up)

continent = { Oceania }
region = { Australia Indonesia Siberia }
area = { ceylon papua kanguru botany maori tasmania lucon borneo celebes amur kamchatka hawaii }


# % of the time we prefer to establish a tradingpost if both are good.
tradingpost = 10

# The amount of provinces we try to colonize at the same time
expansion = 15 # heavy coloniser

# Bonus for areas to establish colonies adjacent to previous ones.
neighbour = 0

# Bonus/Penalty for establish colonies adjacent to other countries.
enemies = 0

# 100 = max trader rate, lesser means slower focus on sending a trader.
traders = 100

# 100 = Total monopolist, will refuse trade as much as possible.
monopoly = 0 # I hate excessive AI embargoes

# 100 = Total warmonger, 0 = absolute pacifist
war = 0
ferocity = no

#if possible we WILL go counter reform
counterreform = no

#Which countries to conquer if possible. (to guide nation historically)
combat = { KUR POL POD LIT} # Focus on rebel nations before doing anything else

#How important is it to gather troops close to base
base = 0.1
#How important is it to be as close to target position when gathering troops.
front = 5.0


#Evaluation factors for conquer plans
conquer =
{
# multiply enemy province value
enemy = 3.5
# multiplying supply factor
supply = 0.1
# factor for distance to not owner provinces
distance = 30.0 # to defend far-flung colonies
# factor for owned provines
owner = 10.0
# Multiplier for provinces not in supply.
notsupply = 4.5
# Multiplying the base constant for conquer.
base = 15.0
}

# Modifiers for garrison plans
garrison =
{
fortress = 1.0
strategic = 3.0
size = 1.0
supply = 2.0
war = 5.0
}
 
Incompetant,

The White's and the Grey's ais are broadly similar, which is no surprise. But they do differ strongly in one area, where you have made them less like White and Grey than Black and White.

I honestly think that a war score of zero is too low for vurtually any country, espcially war that is a military order, albeit one that has chosen an new path to take.

Likewise, I think 95 is over the top. I play Aberrated on coward and still most nations are at war much more than historical. Brittany has a war score of 50 and they often can't deal with all their combat.

The problem with the war scores is there seems from observation is that the ai doesn't appear to take into account the countries real position of economic circumstance when DoWing. This will never change in EU2, but for a hyper aggressive nation it can really mean the deathknell. Despite all the land combat benefits it has (DP sliders and leadership) I always see the Order either expand too swftly to be believable or collapse because it has yet again DoWed someone when barely recovered from a war.

If chosing the Whites means that you essentially retain the Tuetonic Order's status quo, then the war rating shouldn't change that much. The current ai has it set at 65, probably still a touch high.

For the Greys, they remain a military order, and should have at least a war score of, say 10, unless you see them as being - for the period - compromising pacifists.

Still, this is all good work you're doing.
 
Monarchs and Events

The main comment about the monarch listings is that you have upped the quality from the original quite significantly. I see a lot of 8s and 9s in there for both branches. I would tone them down a little, anless you are going to balance that with some difficult events.

There are a few bad ones, especially prior to the civil war. That's good, every country needs a few bad leaders. I think it is critical, though, that their quality is expressed in vents as well. There has to be some reason everyone thought they were so bad. They had to have messed up grandly at one or more points. You will always see good events during the reigns of quality monarchs, so there need to be balancing detrimental events for the poor quality leaders. It's also good for the role playing.

On the question of German culture, I certainly don't currently like the way they get it: essentially getting German culture for declaring war on them, which is just plain weird. But I'd like you to consider how difficult cultural diversity really is. I find it very hard to imagine any of these societies/political elites really making room for more than one culture and not having the other(s) feel aggreived and marginalised, which the RR bonus represents. Oh, sure, the Ottomans managed to rule many cultures for a couple of centuries, but that doesn't mean that their cultures flourished within the polical elites and administration of the empire. Empires like theirs may have succeeded in maintaining stability for a long time through military superiority and general economic prosperity, but the can of worms opens up sooner or later (ie the national stability drops to a point where the wrong-culture RR modifiers start to make a difference.)

Lastly, any great action inevitably receievs a reaction. In whichever choice is made, there should be a cultural backlash at some point in the future: a resurgence of Grey thinking. This does come in 1793, but that's quite late. Keep that event, but maybe consider somthing similar in about the 1720s, perhaps based on the idea that remaining Grey will be invited back into the order once more, bringing some subtle shifts toward Inno and a temporary RR reduction.

The Greys need similar events. Wherein members of the order realise that power is slipping from them or when they see that they are surrounded by more effective military powers. Triggers could be based on neighbouring countries owning certain provinces indicative of great size (like the Finns cowning Warsaw ... he he ). This would reinvigorate the military direction of the Grays, or give th topion for it.

Matty
 
Thanks for your input, MattyG; you make some very good points. I'll try to explain my reasoning.

AI: 0 aggression doesn't mean complete pacifism. The AI will still declare war if it sees easy prey, it just won't jump into so many wars for the sake of it. Also the Grey Order might still be military, but they see their role primarily as protecting the people already under their control, rather than trying to conquer more. 95 is perhaps a little high, but it needs to be higher than the starting AI for two reasons: firstly, the AI tends to get less aggressive as the game goes on, and I've found quite high settings are needed to stoke up the aggression in the second half of the game. Second, the Whites do not represent business as usual; the era they want to go back to is mostly pre-1419, and even by the time of the Russian crusade the idea of further crusading is controversial. By 1671 the TO is basically a settled power and somewhat similar to the countries around it.

Monarchs: The monarchs are very good, but that is intentional - I want the Order to recover from the civil war and become stronger than it was before. I'm especially concerned that the AI recovers properly, as the civil war events are going to be pretty harsh, especially if Poland breaks free (I'm thinking of putting -tax value into some of them to reflect the damage caused). The monarchs could be toned down a little, but overall I want them to be of a fairly high standard compared to the TO's major rivals. The DIP scores also need to take into account the effects of the Aristocracy slider.

The bad monarchs are often reflected in the events, but after the civil war, they're not really hated; they're just not very good at their job. Nothing spectacular, just a steady stream of small mistakes or missed opportunities. An event for every monarch detailing his exact strengths and weaknesses seems a bit excessive. I think that for most monarchs, the player suffers enough from the very real effects of having bad DIP, ADM or MIL scores to come to their own conclusions.

Culture: This is a difficult question, and one that needs to be looked at over the whole mod. The only reason the Order can get any access at all to German culture is that their leadership is mostly German, not because they have a right to rule Germany. I was trying to make suggestions that would be in line with how cultures are given out elsewhere in Abe, but if that is up for a radical rethink then there's nothing more I can say specifically about the TO. Your description of the OE though isn't entirely fair, as non-Turks had many roles in government - in fact for a period the real 'power behind the throne' was an Albanian 'chief advisor' to the Sultan. The problems of cultural diversity are by no means insurmountable, and what you often find is that over time and with sensible rule, people may keep their own language and customs, but get used to the institutions of government as the natural way of doing things. A dramatic example of this is the loyalty the modern Indian state inspires in its extremely diverse populace.

Reaction: If the Whites lose the civil war and go off to live in Germany, their support base crumbles, as they weren't that popular among the non-Germans to start with. Christian himself is a bit of an idealist, but overall the Greys aren't peace-obsessed hippies, they just have the economy as primary focus (as most players would, even the more aggressive ones). Their army will be average rather than feeble. So I don't think there'd be much of a backlash, unless the order does badly.
The Whites, on the other hand, probably do deserve more of a reaction against them, but not so much as to cripple them; any suggestions for events? The Greys who took up arms against the Order won't be readmitted, as they are seen as traitors and many will have been executed or fled, so they're not much of a factor (they might encourage the Hansa or Bavaria to oppose the TO, but that's about it). The Holy Inquisition is meant to root out a lot of the Whites' opponents in the country as a whole, but it should still leave a bitter taste. I'm reluctant to give them permanent RR, though, as there are problems with its implementation in EU2. Also, dropping cultures from the Whites is a no-no: for the Whites to have the manpower they desperately need, it is ESSENTIAL that they have lots of right-culture provinces.

If the Order does very badly, it's a different story. Perhaps having an Order which survives the civil war but then becomes very weak should precipitate the emergence of Baltland, with a slightly different event depending on whether the Whites or Greys are in charge. Emerging in this way, Baltland would have Baltic culture only and a set of cores to match, and would probably only ever be a medium power, like Poland or Russia.
 
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Incompetant

Some good reasoning. I would still challenge you (and many others) on the cultural issue. I think you actually chose an excellent example to back up my position. The Indian state may well be unified in many regards, but lets think about what the wrong-culture modifier is. Yes, there's a bonus to revolt risk, and revolts are not uncommon in the history of India. In fact, it is a nation with a long history of sectarian violence. Second, the RR modifier effect economic production in the province, represented as reduced tax income for the owner. I think that this could be argued as being the case in a somewhat shambolic country like India, where tax evasion is the norm, not the exception. When people feel that their culture is not reflected fully in the government and its aparatus, they are less likely to give unquestioning support to it and more likely to resist it, even if in small and seemingly -insignificant ways. Even in the country I live in, modern, concilatory, decentralised, relaxed and polite Canada, the RR modifiers are there for the province of Quebec and the First Nations people, albeit hidden behind an almost permanent Stability of +3, thanks to being wealthy and accomodating and supporting cultural diversity.

Accordingly, I think that most nations in this era should have only one cultural group, maybe two for certain very specific small nations, like Lorraine - maybe. I think a better way to represent otherness being partly accepted by the central cultural group, would be to grant the nation a permanent -1 to RR in those alternative-culture provinces, to illustrate partial accommodation within the empire, rather than total acceptance.

Matty
 
Incompetant

As far as a reaction event is concerned for the Whites, what this old Germanic military order needs is a little late renaissance revival!

I am thinking of something along the lines of the event for Byzantium (The Renaissance comes to Byzantium). Not as early as that one, but a similar feel. By the early 1700s the rest of western Europe has really and truly moved beyond the middle agaes and its simplistic brutalities, but the order under the whites has been lagging behind considerably, still thinking it needs to suppress the heathen hordes at the borders of Christendom. Well, even its members are starting to not be convinced of this, especially when they are laighed at by their cousins in central Germany who have had the ranaissance AND the reformation and are now reading th latest scientific texts and playing with telescopes. The White Order is outmoded and the leadrships knows it and needs to respond.

Option A would be to "Westernise! We can have our own Renaissance" and provide DP slides to innovative and serfdom and a bonus to Infra.

Option B could be even stronger, with cash reductions providing a Luxury manufatory and stronger bonuses and slides.

Option C, of course, is to bury the head in the sand, but gain Centralisation at the cost of RR, maybe a stab hit and certainly negatives to Innovative.

Matty
 
MattyG said:
Incompetant

Some good reasoning. I would still challenge you (and many others) on the cultural issue. I think you actually chose an excellent example to back up my position. The Indian state may well be unified in many regards, but lets think about what the wrong-culture modifier is. Yes, there's a bonus to revolt risk, and revolts are not uncommon in the history of India. In fact, it is a nation with a long history of sectarian violence. Second, the RR modifier effect economic production in the province, represented as reduced tax income for the owner. I think that this could be argued as being the case in a somewhat shambolic country like India, where tax evasion is the norm, not the exception. When people feel that their culture is not reflected fully in the government and its aparatus, they are less likely to give unquestioning support to it and more likely to resist it, even if in small and seemingly -insignificant ways. Even in the country I live in, modern, concilatory, decentralised, relaxed and polite Canada, the RR modifiers are there for the province of Quebec and the First Nations people, albeit hidden behind an almost permanent Stability of +3, thanks to being wealthy and accomodating and supporting cultural diversity.

Accordingly, I think that most nations in this era should have only one cultural group, maybe two for certain very specific small nations, like Lorraine - maybe. I think a better way to represent otherness being partly accepted by the central cultural group, would be to grant the nation a permanent -1 to RR in those alternative-culture provinces, to illustrate partial accommodation within the empire, rather than total acceptance.

Matty

I see what you're saying, but I don't think it would be sensible to simulate modern-day India, say, as having Hindi culture only. It's not as if, for example, Gujarati speakers feel less Indian than Hindi speakers. The problems the Indian government has in managing things are common to all poor countries, and in fact India does rather well compared to many countries, even those with one very dominant ethnic group (eg the predominately Arab countries). It's also difficult to run a country of such enormous population and geographic extent, which is not the same as diversity.

I was trying to say that all ethnic minorities integrate successfully, merely that some do: for example, ask Quebecois and Acadians what they think about being part of Canada, and they'll give very different answers on average. If we look at the wrong-culture penalties in EU2, they represent a real lack of cooperation, not just slight disagreements - from a modern point-of-view we're talking Londonderry rather than Edinburgh. The RR is pretty minor (and IMO should be increased) but there's a huge 30% tax penalty, and you can basically ignore wrong-culture provinces for manpower purposes. Restricting countries to a single culture will just give a huge advantage to countries that happen to have a big culture as primary, like French, as these will be the only countries that could ever field large armies. In fact, you could say the very existence of a unified French culture is thanks to the action of the French state - without its centralising influence, the southern half of France would probably feel more affinity with people in Spain or Italy than it does with the Picards or the Parisians.

What I do think should be avoided is giving countries too large a 'culture zone': Brittany's culture zone encompasses the whole of the British Isles and France, for example, which is absurd. In some cases I think we're just going to have to introduce new cultures which expand as the authority of the state grows, eg Burgundy could have 'burgundian' as its only major culture, potentially ranging over the Rhineland and Northeastern France, but never reaching the Languedoc or Bavaria no matter how much Burgundy conquers.