Teutonic order events

[MattyG]

I don't think that when looking at India the reference to the language groups is the best. Hindi is a language, not a culture. The people of Gujarat (a state as well as a language) may see themselves as both Indian and Gujarati, but their loyalties - if pressed - might be with Gujarat first, India second. Who knows.

I think that Quebec and Acidie ARE like Londonderry, but in a country where religion largely doesn't matter (ie EU2 in modern Canada has removed all of the modifiers for religion).

As you say, the wrong culture modifier hammers manpower and taxation. It shoud effect them, rather than hammer them.

Which brings me back to the original suggestion: give the culture, but with it comes a permanent RR in all those culture province of 1 or 2 to indicate that there is no perfect assimilation, as EU2 would have it.

Totally agree on the Brittany front. It's a tough one, because the great Johan designed it, but I think its the worst eventfile/set up in Europe: overpowered and clumsily designed. Burgundy is pretty bad too: too many cores and so few actual events for the nation in the centre of it all. I'm sure this posting will have me in trouble with the moderators ...

 

[Incompetent]

Incompetant

As far as a reaction event is concerned for the Whites, what this old Germanic military order needs is a little late renaissance revival!

I am thinking of something along the lines of the event for Byzantium (The Renaissance comes to Byzantium). Not as early as that one, but a similar feel. By the early 1700s the rest of western Europe has really and truly moved beyond the middle agaes and its simplistic brutalities, but the order under the whites has been lagging behind considerably, still thinking it needs to suppress the heathen hordes at the borders of Christendom. Well, even its members are starting to not be convinced of this, especially when they are laighed at by their cousins in central Germany who have had the ranaissance AND the reformation and are now reading th latest scientific texts and playing with telescopes. The White Order is outmoded and the leadrships knows it and needs to respond.

Option A would be to "Westernise! We can have our own Renaissance" and provide DP slides to innovative and serfdom and a bonus to Infra.

Option B could be even stronger, with cash reductions providing a Luxury manufatory and stronger bonuses and slides.

Option C, of course, is to bury the head in the sand, but gain Centralisation at the cost of RR, maybe a stab hit and certainly negatives to Innovative.

Matty

Looks good! But I suspect the Whites' renaissance would tend to be too little, too late: we don't want to turn this into too much of a gift for them, and the options need to be balanced. The DP changes and Infra bonus should be fairly modest on the default version, and the radical one should come with some significant downsides, particularly affecting the country's bloated military expenditure. With option C, maybe it shouldn't give them any RR or stab hits now, but it'll come back to haunt them later as they'll get a more severe version of 'the weakening of central authority'.

Something like this:

A: "Some changes are necessary" +1 Inno, +1000 Infra, -100 cash, -500 Land, -1 stab (change leads to minor instability)
B: "We need major reform, before it's too late" +2 Inno, -1 Serf, -1 Cent, +2500 Infra, -500 cash, -3000 Land, lose a CC, gain a luxury manu, -2 stab
C: "Who needs progress?" -1 Inno, +1 stab (preserves status quo, so no large effects)

 

[MattyG]

Looks good! But I suspect the Whites' renaissance would tend to be too little, too late: we don't want to turn this into too much of a gift for them, and the options need to be balanced. The DP changes and Infra bonus should be fairly modest on the default version, and the radical one should come with some significant downsides, particularly affecting the country's bloated military expenditure. With option C, maybe it shouldn't give them any RR or stab hits now, but it'll come back to haunt them later as they'll get a more severe version of 'the weakening of central authority'.

Something like this:

A: "Some changes are necessary" +1 Inno, +1000 Infra, -100 cash, -500 Land, -1 stab (change leads to minor instability)
B: "We need major reform, before it's too late" +2 Inno, -1 Serf, -1 Cent, +2500 Infra, -500 cash, -3000 Land, lose a CC, gain a luxury manu, -2 stab
C: "Who needs progress?" -1 Inno, +1 stab (preserves status quo, so no large effects)

Those look good, but I would include a -1 to Aris in choice B.

What did you have in mind for the connections with the latter event if option B is chosen? Maybe there is something you could sleep if A and B are chosen which triggers 20 years later?

 

[Incompetent]

There'll be one more course of action for the TO: they can cave in to the local nobility after Gerhard the Firm. The advantages are that this approach avoids the civil war, and the Russians are happy to live under such a feeble state, if they've already been somewhat assimilated. But overall it's a poor choice, and the White/Grey routes are much more interesting.

Associated events:

The aristocracy takes over (1671)
- change tech to Orthodox; massive increase in ARIST and decrease in CENT; smaller changes to other sliders; country becomes KUR

Bavarian influence in Baltland (1705, BAY)
- Try to take control of Baltland: KUR becomes a vassal and ally of BAY; +400 relations with KUR; -cash (bribes to key nobles); triggers next event
- We have better things to worry about: does nothing

Bavarian electors become Grand Masters (1705, KUR)
- KUR now has Bavarian monarchs (better than default 'Sejm'); a few DP changes; +stab; KUR cedes any HRE territory it has to BAY (it shouldn't have much of the HRE anyway!)
(There's no choice here, because your control over the nobles is extremely weak - if you didn't want this, you should have held onto power!)

The domestic reforms of Boguslaw Kepinski (1728)
- weaker version of the Grey event

Recession
- as before

Bavarian rule ends (fires only if KUR breaks its vassalage)
- KUR gets 'Sejm' back as monarch; DP changes reversed; small drop in relations; -stab

Once I've done these and other events outlined in this thread, along with monarchs, leaders and AI, and made sure it all works, hopefully the TO will be ready to pass to beta, after 1600 at least. I'll have a look at pre-1600, but I don't plan to give that period quite as many events as post-1600.

 

[MattyG]

While this all needs playtesting, the structure you have developed here looks really strong, which so many of the elements that players like to see and that enriches the game.

Well done.

MattyG

 

[Rythin]

Well, riight, but to betatest one must run his Aberration. And mine crashes everytime when loading. Everytime. I have 12Apr beta if that matters.

Any ideas?

 

[Incompetent]

@Rythin: There's now a fix for this - I'll make sure my updates for province.csv are beta-compatible.

On the subject of the TO, we need to think of a backstory to explain their ahistorical strength. I think the one I like most is the following one: Grand Duke Jagiello never converted to Christianity or allied with Poland. As a result, Lithuania got conquered by the Order, but many of its provinces are still Pagan. Without the help of the Lithuanians, Poland has also been fighting a losing battle against the Order, but they're firmly Christian.

 

[Incompetent]

Here are some leaders for the TO, post-1600:


historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31768 }
category = general
name = "von Feuchtwangen"
startdate = {
day = 6
month = october
year = 1612
}
deathdate = {
day = 17
month = july
year = 1641
}
rank = 0
movement = 5
fire = 3
shock = 5
siege = 0
remark = "Grand Master"
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31769 }
category = general
name = "Johann"
startdate = {
day = 8
month = june
year = 1633
}
deathdate = {
day = 5
month = april
year = 1648
}
rank = 2
movement = 3
fire = 3
shock = 2
siege = 0
}

## Grey leaders (post civil war)

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31770 }
category = general
name = "von Schafenberg"
startdate = {
day = 3
month = february
year = 1671
}
deathdate = {
day = 15
month = october
year = 1694
}
rank = 0
movement = 3
fire = 2
shock = 2
siege = 1
remark = "Grand Master"
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31771 }
category = general
name = "von Neckarbruecke"
startdate = {
day = 9
month = june
year = 1672
}
deathdate = {
day = 18
month = november
year = 1713
}
rank = 1
movement = 4
fire = 4
shock = 3
siege = 1
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31773 }
category = general
name = "Girenas"
startdate = {
day = 3
month = february
year = 1671
}
deathdate = {
day = 15
month = september
year = 1686
}
rank = 2
movement = 5
fire = 2
shock = 3
siege = 0
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31774 }
category = explorer
name = "Olaf Svensson"
startdate = {
day = 9
month = march
year = 1683
}
deathdate = {
day = 15
month = december
year = 1702
}
rank = 1
movement = 6
fire = 4
shock = 4
siege = 0
remark = "Admiral for the Whites"
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31775 }
category = general
name = "von Tiefen"
startdate = {
day = 18
month = april
year = 1732
}
deathdate = {
day = 13
month = november
year = 1759
}
rank = 1
movement = 4
fire = 3
shock = 2
siege = 1
remark = "Also for Whites"
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31776 }
category = conquistador
name = "Khorodovsky"
startdate = {
day = 17
month = april
year = 1715
}
deathdate = {
day = 27
month = january
year = 1721
}
rank = 3
movement = 3
fire = 2
shock = 2
siege = 0
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31776 }
category = explorer
name = "Ulrich"
startdate = {
day = 8
month = march
year = 1712
}
deathdate = {
day = 12
month = july
year = 1719
}
rank = 2
movement = 5
fire = 3
shock = 2
siege = 0
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31777 }
category = explorer
name = "Epstein"
startdate = {
day = 18
month = july
year = 1724
}
deathdate = {
day = 8
month = august
year = 1728
}
rank = 1
movement = 6
fire = 2
shock = 2
siege = 0
remark = "Admiral for Whites"
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31778 }
category = explorer
name = "Bikerts"
startdate = {
day = 9
month = august
year = 1747
}
deathdate = {
day = 20
month = november
year = 1758
}
rank = 1
movement = 5
fire = 3
shock = 3
siege = 0
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31779 }
category = general
name = "Dabrowski"
startdate = {
day = 17
month = october
year = 1782
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = june
year = 1790
}
rank = 2
movement = 2
fire = 3
shock = 2
siege = 2
remark = "Also for Whites"
}

## White leaders

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31780 }
category = general
name = "W. von Feuchtwangen"
startdate = {
day = 3
month = february
year = 1671
}
deathdate = {
day = 23
month = may
year = 1689
}
rank = 0
movement = 5
fire = 5
shock = 6
siege = 1
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31781 }
category = general
name = "von Altenburg"
startdate = {
day = 3
month = february
year = 1671
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1687
}
rank = 1
movement = 4
fire = 6
shock = 3
siege = 0
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31782 }
category = general
name = "von Meissen"
startdate = {
day = 3
month = february
year = 1671
}
deathdate = {
day = 14
month = july
year = 1695
}
rank = 1
movement = 2
fire = 4
shock = 2
siege = 2
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31783 }
category = admiral
name = "Olaf Svensson"
startdate = {
day = 9
month = march
year = 1683
}
deathdate = {
day = 15
month = december
year = 1702
}
rank = 1
movement = 5
fire = 6
shock = 6
siege = 0
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31784 }
category = general
name = "P. von Feuchtwangen"
startdate = {
day = 12
month = october
year = 1687
}
deathdate = {
day = 17
month = february
year = 1705
}
rank = 0
movement = 4
fire = 4
shock = 4
siege = 0
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31785 }
category = general
name = "H. von Feuchtwangen"
startdate = {
day = 17
month = february
year = 1705
}
deathdate = {
day = 14
month = january
year = 1724
}
rank = 0
movement = 5
fire = 4
shock = 5
siege = 0
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31786 }
category = general
name = "Aalberg"
startdate = {
day = 22
month = march
year = 1723
}
deathdate = {
day = 5
month = may
year = 1737
}
rank = 0
movement = 4
fire = 2
shock = 2
siege = 2
dormant = yes
remark = "This guy will be useful in Finland"
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31787 }
category = general
name = "von Sternberg"
startdate = {
day = 17
month = november
year = 1719
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1728
}
rank = 1
movement = 3
fire = 3
shock = 2
siege = 1
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31788 }
category = admiral
name = "Epstein"
startdate = {
day = 18
month = july
year = 1724
}
deathdate = {
day = 8
month = july
year = 1731
}
rank = 2
movement = 5
fire = 3
shock = 3
siege = 0
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31789 }
category = general
name = "K. von Feuchtwangen"
startdate = {
day = 15
month = june
year = 1726
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1743
}
rank = 0
movement = 5
fire = 3
shock = 5
siege = 0
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31790 }
category = general
name = "von Russdorf"
startdate = {
day = 15
month = june
year = 1740
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1757
}
rank = 2
movement = 4
fire = 3
shock = 3
siege = 1
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31791 }
category = general
name = "Ch. von Feuchtwangen"
startdate = {
day = 15
month = june
year = 1743
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1758
}
rank = 0
movement = 3
fire = 4
shock = 4
siege = 1
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31792 }
category = general
name = "F. von Feuchtwangen"
startdate = {
day = 15
month = june
year = 1757
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1769
}
rank = 0
movement = 2
fire = 3
shock = 4
siege = 0
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31793 }
category = general
name = "von Dessau"
startdate = {
day = 15
month = june
year = 1755
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1772
}
rank = 0
movement = 4
fire = 6
shock = 6
siege = 1
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31794 }
category = general
name = "Hamersheim"
startdate = {
day = 15
month = june
year = 1770
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1779
}
rank = 1
movement = 4
fire = 5
shock = 3
siege = 0
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31795 }
category = general
name = "W. von Feuchtwangen"
startdate = {
day = 15
month = june
year = 1790
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1799
}
rank = 0
movement = 2
fire = 1
shock = 1
siege = 0
dormant = yes
remark = "Liability"
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31796 }
category = general
name = "M. von Feuchtwangen"
startdate = {
day = 15
month = june
year = 1799
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1820
}
rank = 0
movement = 3
fire = 2
shock = 3
siege = 2
dormant = yes
}

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31797 }
category = conquistador
name = "von Munchausen"
startdate = {
day = 15
month = june
year = 1803
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1812
}
rank = 0
movement = 4
fire = 2
shock = 3
siege = 0
dormant = yes
}

 

[Rythin]

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 31797 }
category = conquistador
name = "von Munchausen"
startdate = {
day = 15
month = june
year = 1803
}
deathdate = {
day = 7
month = april
year = 1812
}
rank = 0
movement = 4
fire = 2
shock = 3
siege = 0
dormant = yes
}

He should have like 6 movement, he flied at the cannon ball, no?

 

[Sekenr]

I have a small comment on the evenе when the pope starts a crusade into Rus. I think this event should check if Teutonic Order is allied with Finland or Ukraine and dissolve this alliance if necessary. Or maybe leave the alliance and stay neutral if they have bad relations with Pope and good with Finland/Ukraine.

It just looks strange when Teutonic Order honors the alliance and helps Finland against Scots and other crusaders.

 

[Incompetent]

I have a small comment on the even? when the pope starts a crusade into Rus. I think this event should check if Teutonic Order is allied with Finland or Ukraine and dissolve this alliance if necessary. Or maybe leave the alliance and stay neutral if they have bad relations with Pope and good with Finland/Ukraine.

It just looks strange when Teutonic Order honors the alliance and helps Finland against Scots and other crusaders.

Yes, assuming I can get that to work.

Here's another idea for events, if the Cossacks become the Kings of Pillage:

Order and Chaos (LAT)
- requires the Cossacks to have conquered a fair amount and to have taken the 'Cossack Horde' route, for the TO and Ukraine to have bad relations, and for the TO to be stable and at peace
"Although the Order had long been troubled by periodic Cossack raids, in the past the Knights had usually had more important matters to attend to. However, in later years the Cossack pillaging became completely intolerable, and the Grand Master resolved to confront the wild horsemen once and for all and scatter them to the winds."
- Crush the Cossacks!: Adds a load of cores on Ukrainian provinces; +OFF; -stab; very long-lived CB on Ukraine; worsen relations with UKR; little or no BB, as few countries would mourn the passing of the Cossack Horde ; minor province RR and tax value damage in outlying provinces
- No, we are too weak. Bribe the cossacks instead: big -cash, some of which goes to Ukraine; some +relations with Ukraine. Stops 'Cossack Raids'

Cossack Guerillas (LAT; one for each relevant province)
- triggers whenever the Order takes a Cossack-dominated province
"When the forces of the Teutonic Order started to push back the Cossack tribes, the Cossacks operated a scorched-earth policy. Much of the population, both Cossacks and their captives, would move south; crops and buildings would be burnt down; and a few Cossacks would remain to constantly harass and ambush the Teutonic armies. It was clear that the Cossacks would stop at nothing to destroy the Order's grip on the Cossacks' lost territory."
- massive tax, population and manpower damage to the province; big province RR

Cossack Raids (LAT)
- happens every so often if Ukraine is in 'crazy Horde' mode
"The lands of the Order were often subjected to low-level raids by the Cossacks, and these did relatively little damage. But occasionally the Cossack tribes would work together to mount much larger and extensive operations, which posed a much more serious threat to the Order."
- Argh!: rebels appear in southern provinces, national RR for a short time

The 'confront them' approach is mainly for the megalomaniacal TO player who's pissed off at Ukrainian expansion - invading psycho Ukraine is NOT a sound economic strategy!

 

[unmerged(16159)]

culture

Incompetent,

Just a quick comment regarding baltic culture, arising out of the work on Hansa. I am rewriting my ideas abandoning baltic culture (and dutch and german of course) for the Hanseatic State, but does any other nation get baltic cuture? Do the TO share cores with any other nation? Or are events the only things propelling TO to expand beyond their borders, and like-wise induce other nations to want baltic provinces?

Taa

 

[Incompetent]

Incompetent,

Just a quick comment regarding baltic culture, arising out of the work on Hansa. I am rewriting my ideas abandoning baltic culture (and dutch and german of course) for the Hanseatic State, but does any other nation get baltic cuture? Do the TO share cores with any other nation? Or are events the only things propelling TO to expand beyond their borders, and like-wise induce other nations to want baltic provinces?

Taa

At the moment, the TO starts with cores on several minors, basically successor states to Poland and Lithuania, and some of these have Baltic culture. In terms of majors, the TO, Hansa and Kalmar (and maybe Finland as well, can't remember) all have cores on Estland, and the TO can later get major core overlaps in Russia (with Finland and Ukraine), a couple of poor Baltic provinces (with Ukraine), and a couple of Polish provinces (with Hungary). My White events will obviously give them more core overlaps.

But as far as Baltic culture is concerned, AFAIK no other major gets it; it's effectively the defining culture of the TO, like Magyar is for Hungary. One option is that we break up Baltic culture into 'Baltic German' and 'Lithuanian'. Baltic German would then become the TO's defining culture, though it would also spread to some other German provinces in the Baltic region, like Danzig. Lithuanian, on the other hand, could be somewhat up for grabs. But who would actually deserve Lithuanian culture?

 

[MattyG]

At the moment, the TO starts with cores on several minors, basically successor states to Poland and Lithuania, and some of these have Baltic culture. In terms of majors, the TO, Hansa and Kalmar (and maybe Finland as well, can't remember) all have cores on Estland, and the TO can later get major core overlaps in Russia (with Finland and Ukraine), a couple of poor Baltic provinces (with Ukraine), and a couple of Polish provinces (with Hungary). My White events will obviously give them more core overlaps.

But as far as Baltic culture is concerned, AFAIK no other major gets it; it's effectively the defining culture of the TO, like Magyar is for Hungary. One option is that we break up Baltic culture into 'Baltic German' and 'Lithuanian'. Baltic German would then become the TO's defining culture, though it would also spread to some other German provinces in the Baltic region, like Danzig. Lithuanian, on the other hand, could be somewhat up for grabs. But who would actually deserve Lithuanian culture?

How about the Lithuanians?

 

[unmerged(16159)]

But as far as Baltic culture is concerned, AFAIK no other major gets it; it's effectively the defining culture of the TO, like Magyar is for Hungary. One option is that we break up Baltic culture into 'Baltic German' and 'Lithuanian'. Baltic German would then become the TO's defining culture, though it would also spread to some other German provinces in the Baltic region, like Danzig. Lithuanian, on the other hand, could be somewhat up for grabs. But who would actually deserve Lithuanian culture?

I guess I am just wondering what Baltic culture IS. I don't want this thread to be derailed by culture issues, but it's hard to think of inland provinces being defined by a sea that hardly anyone would have visited. I know I am being too literal here.

I don't think anyone should have a monpoly over a culture, or that a nation should only have a single culture. Over 400 years of history, these things should mutate and change. German and swiss one moment, then 100 years later german, then 100 years after that german and italian. I wanted Hansa to be just as flexible, but have been (correctly) argued out of this.

I think TO should have two cultures, baltic and german. Or baltic and ugric Or baltic and lithuanian. Then it loses lithuanian and gains hanseatic. Then loses hanseatic and gains german.

And that secondary culture, (german, lithuanian, martian... whatever) is also owned by Poland. Or Ukraine. Or Finland.

And that there are a series of overlapping cultures stretching from Eire to China.

Whew. Thanks for that. I feel much better now it's out.

 

[Incompetent]

Interesting ideas, but I'm not sure I agree.

I don't think anyone should have a monpoly over a culture, or that a nation should only have a single culture. Over 400 years of history, these things should mutate and change. German and swiss one moment, then 100 years later german, then 100 years after that german and italian. I wanted Hansa to be just as flexible, but have been (correctly) argued out of this.

Why should all nations be multicultural? Arguably, a nation is just the opposite - calling it a 'nation' means it has a single unifying culture, and it's only supranational 'empires' which are multicultural. Yes, national culture changes, but often that's a matter of the cultural changes among its people. It doesn't imply any geographical drift in the area considered the homeland of the country. Eg 'France' refers to roughly the same area throughout the EU2 period - it never drifts so far east that erstwhile 'Germans' become the definition of Frenchness! Where culture do drift, I think a better way of representing it is to change province culture, rather than state culture.

I think TO should have two cultures, baltic and german. Or baltic and ugric Or baltic and lithuanian. Then it loses lithuanian and gains hanseatic. Then loses hanseatic and gains german.

That's one way for the TO to evolve. But I don't want them to become Imperial Prussia. If anything the TO gets less German and more Baltic/Polish as the game progress.

BTW, the words 'Balt' and 'Baltic' seem to be well-established in both historical and modern usage to refer to the people living in that part of Europe, who were neither Scandinavian, Finnic, Germanic nor Slavic. In Aberration, however, they have become somewhat Germanised under Teutonic influence, hence 'balto-german' or whatever.

And that secondary culture, (german, lithuanian, martian... whatever) is also owned by Poland. Or Ukraine. Or Finland.

Ah, but why would Germans be keen on Polish rule? Or Lithuanians happily ruled by Cossacks? I'm not saying these cultures should necessarily be unavailable, but these countries would have to work on incorporating these people before they got the culture. There were big differences between mainstream German and Polish culture, and even more so between the anarchic Cossacks and the settled Lithuanians.

And that there are a series of overlapping cultures stretching from Eire to China.

By that argument, we'd need to give Burgundy German culture, Cordoba Occitan culture, Kalmar Finnish culture etc right off the bat, and I don't think that's a good idea at all. However, we could well have overlapping cores stretching all the way to China, with some cultural drift in the borderlands, and in some cases the ability to earn new cultures (emphasis on 'earn'); so if you look at the 'potential cultural footprint' of each country, indeed they will overlap all over the place.

I think for the default mod, we'll stick to roughly the interpretation of culture I spelt out in the Culture thread, ie you can get multiple cultures, but you have to earn them. Your view of countries having very broad culture zones would make a good 'generous cultures' option, though, so we can certainly make it available to players.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Interesting ideas, but I'm not sure I agree.
Why should all nations be multicultural? Arguably, a nation is just the opposite - calling it a 'nation' means it has a single unifying culture, and it's only supranational 'empires' which are multicultural.

I agree, that evry small nations are monocultural. But what defines nations in the 15th centrury is not culture, but allegiances and alliances. We can't assign a 20th centruy sense of nationhood to them. "National" culture in EU2 terms mean - I assume - "cultures to which Our King looks kindly upon, and unto which generously submit to our benevolent power." Mostly this is a single culture, and for 95% of states and circumstances I would agree with you. But....

Yes, national culture changes, but often that's a matter of the cultural changes among its people. It doesn't imply any geographical drift in the area considered the homeland of the country. Eg 'France' refers to roughly the same area throughout the EU2 period - it never drifts so far east that erstwhile 'Germans' become the definition of Frenchness! Where culture do drift, I think a better way of representing it is to change province culture, rather than state culture.

Yep. I am trying to get us to look at exactly that cultural change among a people, rather than the geographic changes. I agree that changing province culture is also a very good option.

That's one way for the TO to evolve. But I don't want them to become Imperial Prussia. If anything the TO gets less German and more Baltic/Polish as the game progress.

BTW, the words 'Balt' and 'Baltic' seem to be well-established in both historical and modern usage to refer to the people living in that part of Europe, who were neither Scandinavian, Finnic, Germanic nor Slavic. In Aberration, however, they have become somewhat Germanised under Teutonic influence, hence 'balto-german' or whatever.

Yep, sorry, I am not intending to suggest that TO run two cultures as a permanent thing, but I do like the idea of dividing the balticsea-germanic kind of 'baltic' culture from the not-balticsea-germanic 'baltic' culture, particularly at the start. Then if TO own these provinces for a 100 years or so, perhaps the definition of 'baltic' changes to what we understand it today, and the whole nation unifies under the one banner. Just a thought.

Ah, but why would Germans be keen on Polish rule? Or Lithuanians happily ruled by Cossacks? I'm not saying these cultures should necessarily be unavailable, but these countries would have to work on incorporating these people before they got the culture. There were big differences between mainstream German and Polish culture, and even more so between the anarchic Cossacks and the settled Lithuanians.

Agreed, but I don't see this agrument as a reason against nations sharing cultures, provided they have earnt them. Not a god-given right, but through long-term ownership or strong benevolent leadership, or even clever marriage.

By that argument, we'd need to give Burgundy German culture, Cordoba Occitan culture, Kalmar Finnish culture etc right off the bat, and I don't think that's a good idea at all. However, we could well have overlapping cores stretching all the way to China, with some cultural drift in the borderlands, and in some cases the ability to earn new cultures (emphasis on 'earn'); so if you look at the 'potential cultural footprint' of each country, indeed they will overlap all over the place.

Well currently Burgundy has french and dutch, which has sound historical reasons. If the ReAberrated Burgundy settled on the Rhine, they, yes, they should have french and german culture. And Cordoba having Occitan culture makes as much sense as Brittany having gaelic, anglo, and french.

Your view of countries having very broad culture zones would make a good 'generous cultures' option, though, so we can certainly make it available to players.

And as I agreed earlier, it's something which would need to be earnt. Cultures should flux and wane, and be seen as a living thing. Good coding can achieve this and have it make historical sense. I love the way the TO history is heading, but I'd hate to see it boxed into a single culture.

 

[Incompetent]

I think we agree on most of the principles, it's just a matter of extent. I wouldn't want Burgundy having French and German, for example, because that's a huge culture zone, most of which has no allegiance to Burgundy. Hence the suggestion of 'Burgundian' culture for a Rhineland Burgundy.

And as I agreed earlier, it's something which would need to be earnt. Cultures should flux and wane, and be seen as a living thing. Good coding can achieve this and have it make historical sense. I love the way the TO history is heading, but I'd hate to see it boxed into a single culture.

Actually, the way things are going, the TO could reach four cultures: balto-german, lithuanian, polish and russian. I'll have to look at the circumstances under which the TO deserves Polish and Russian culture, though.

 

[yourworstnightm]

TO getting 4 cultures is maybe too much, what if they start with balto-german and "lithuanian", but can earn either polish or russian or none of them depending on their actions.

 

[Incompetent]

TO getting 4 cultures is maybe too much, what if they start with balto-german and "lithuanian", but can earn either polish or russian or none of them depending on their actions.

What matters from a balance POV is not how many cultures they get, but the extent of those cultures. I haven't split baltic up yet, but if I do it'll roughly be the TO and Prussia's provinces from vanilla which turn balto-german, together with maybe Hinterpommern. So the cultures will look roughly like this:

Balto-german: 7 (ish) provinces

Lithuanian: 7 provinces

Polish: 6 provinces

Russian: 13 provinces

In terms of no. of provinces, the first three together are roughly in line with Italian. All four put together are similar to German. But bearing in mind that these provinces are generally much poorer than those in Italy or Germany, it's not that much of a boon. I need to give the TO a reasonable culture zone, because it's a army-oriented power, and what those need more than anything is manpower, which is negligible for wrong-culture provinces.

It will be pretty hard to get Russian culture permanently, especially in MP. First of all, you have to whoop both Ukraine and Finland to 'win' the Russian crusade. Secondly, you can either let the aristocracy take over (which is a BAD move), or you can choose the Whites and somehow manage to cling onto Russia (if you choose Whites in MP, your neighbours will NOT be pleased!). Both courses of action probably involve dropping a tech group.

I might make it so that the Whites can't get Polish culture back. (The Greys, OTOH, draw much of their support in the civil war from the Poles.) In that case, the only way you can have 4 cultures in the last 150 years of the game is to let the local aristocracy take over, otherwise known as Poland syndrome. This is definitely not a recommended course of action. The TO may get to 4 cultures between about 1550 and 1650, but then the Order's overstretch is meant to be a key feature of the 17th century - the more cultures you have, the more unpleasant that period will be.