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Wrong. It is out of proportion. The turrets are too small for a ship of that size. It was the first British warship to be longer than Hood!

The turrets are too small? I'd bet the turrets are exactly the size they need to have to carry two 381mm guns. A smaller turret is actually preferable as it's harder to hit.

I suppose they decided she would be too heavy if they would have used trippel or quadruppel turrets instead.
 
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The turrets are too small? I'd bet the turrets are exactly the size they need to have to carry two 381mm guns. A smaller turret is actually preferable as it's harder to hit.

Although a too small turret can cause problems with rates of fire, like some WW2-vintage French 138mm turrets.
 
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Although a too small turret can cause problems with rates of fire, like some WW2-vintage French 138mm turrets.

Vanguard's turrets were the same size as all the other modernized twin 15" mounts in the RN, and she was 50' shorter than Hood anyway. Vanguard does have that GIANT "block" superstructure though ...

If my choice is between an ugly battleship today and a pretty one later (or never!), I'll take the former. ;)

"If it looks right, it is right" isn't always true--see HMS Hood ...
 
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Germany can beat France, it is only weaker diplomatically. With double population and triple industry any advantage France (alone) has is only temporary.

While Germany may yet be able to beat France, the new understanding between Italy and France changes things a great deal, particularly if the intent is to take a step to the east first.

Assuming that France cares about Poland, the new "alliance" would then actually surround Germany, and although the Italians were bested in Africa, their true incompetance has yet to be fully unveiled.

I think that Hitler would have serious reservations about his ability to be aggressive in this circumstance. As a result, Germany would not have the resources of western Europe at its disposal come time for conflict with the SU. also not mentioned here is that if Anschluss is not possible because of resistance from both France and Italy, presumably the Sudentland question never comes up either. If Germany also lacks those resources, it is a much less formidable foe...

If there is no German attack on the SU, it is possible that over time Stalin would be able to amass armed forces that could not be resisted by the rest of Europe...
 
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While Germany may yet be able to beat France, the new understanding between Italy and France changes things a great deal, particularly if the intent is to take a step to the east first.

Assuming that France cares about Poland, the new "alliance" would then actually surround Germany, and although the Italians were bested in Africa, their true incompetance has yet to be fully unveiled.

I think that Hitler would have serious reservations about his ability to be aggressive in this circumstance. As a result, Germany would not have the resources of western Europe at its disposal come time for conflict with the SU. also not mentioned here is that if Anschluss is not possible because of resistance from both France and Italy, presumably the Sudentland question never comes up either. If Germany also lacks those resources, it is a much less formidable foe...

If there is no German attack on the SU, it is possible that over time Stalin would be able to amass armed forces that could not be resisted by the rest of Europe...

But surely Hitler will try to do something. I mean, I can't imagine him sitting down and twiddling his thumbs forever.

You raise a very good point about the Soviet Union. With that country isolated from Germany by Poland (assuming Poland holds out for a few more years), Stalin will have plenty of time to reform and build up the Red Army. An unintended consequence of the Rhineland question might very well be a Red Europe.
 
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Do we get Asian matters in next chapters of the conference? This should be a lot more interesting for Great Britain as Japan has not been limited. Britain does need to preserve her crown jewel, India. And with the Dutch East Indies oil and America-controlled Philipines there's still a chance for Britain to find potential partners. Especially if Australia starts to cry it feels threatened by the Yaps.
 
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Your Europe seems to be reverting not so much to a pre-1914 situation as pre-1870 - no dominant power, no solid alliances, fears and ambitions in all directions and ideology taking a distinct back seat to pragmatism. As TheExecuter points out, it's difficult to see where a near-term breakdown is coming from - France, Germany and Italy are all weak in various ways and Britain has no continental ambitions. The wild card, of course, is Soviet Russia - the one thing the British, French, German and Italian governments all share is fear and hostility towards the Red Menace. (Which raises some interesting questions - if Germany intervened to support Finland, or Romania, or the Baltics against Soviet hostility, what would Britain do? Come to that, what would France do?)
 
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Which raises some interesting questions - if Germany intervened to support Finland, or Romania, or the Baltics against Soviet hostility, what would Britain do? Come to that, what would France do?

The real question is:

WWJD?
(what would Johan do)
 
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The real question is:

WWJD?
(what would Johan do)
True, very true. The ways of Paradox are not for mortals to comprehend. ;)
 
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Ask his fellow Swedes and we'd have a good idea. :rofl:
 
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My god, Reds under the beds anyone?!? :rolleyes: Think about it logically rather than ideologically...

The abysmal failure of Hitler's gung ho politics are going to encourage Stalin to act the same way? I think not my friends... Stalin was an opportunist but also far too paranoid to be adventurous. No World crisis, no grand plans from this guy.

However do stay tuned for the next round of purges... including that old guy who looked at him funny. ;)

Having said that, the pre ordained events inherent in HOI2 mean the SU will act, unless Pip does some modding.
 
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The abysmal failure of Hitler's gung ho politics are going to encourage Stalin to act the same way? I think not my friends... Stalin was an opportunist but also far too paranoid to be adventurous. No World crisis, no grand plans from this guy.

However do stay tuned for the next round of purges... including that old guy who looked at him funny. ;)

Having said that, the pre ordained events inherent in HOI2 mean the SU will act, unless Pip does some modding.

I would personally like to see Britain deal with a Europe united under Communism. It certainly would be an interesting scenario.
 
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One of the big "What Ifs"

...of 20th Century history, is indeed what might have happened if the Nazis had not risen to power, or if Hitler had not been a megalomaniac, determined to run around 'tagging' every country he could reach. :wacko:

I must say, that from my own readings on this, I believe Duritz has nailed it - no grand Soviet empire marching West. No indeed. Stalin was paranoid and militaristic, but he was utterly devoted to staying within his own borders. In the SU in the 30's, one sure way of gaining an official train ticket to Siberia was to suggest that Communism must be exported around the world. If you were lucky, you'd get your seat upgraded all the way to an ice-pick in the skull, for making such suggestions! :eek:

Historically, it seems likely that the Winter War would happen, although you never know. If it does, then expect the same disastrous state of the SU forces to be revealed, and an even greater retrenchment of Communists behind their barricades...
 
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I think you're misunderstanding me - I wasn't trying to argue that a weak Germany would result in Stalin going on a conquest spree in Eastern Europe, but rather that the fear of Communism & the Soviet Union would be very powerful influence on European diplomacy, just as it was in real life. Historically a whole bunch of people who should have known better decided (at least initially) that the Nazis were a lesser evil than the Soviets, and there was a strand of diplomatic thought (particularly in Britain) going back to Versailles that crippling Germany was undesirable because it would leave no counterbalance to the power of Russia.

So if Hitler starts jumping up and down shouting "The Bolsheviks are coming!" (and, politically, what else can he do at this point?), a lot of people will be tempted to believe him. Of course, any sign of Western support for the Anti-Comintern is likely to make Stalin even more paranoid and thus even more determined to secure the Soviet Union's defences. And if Stalin follows his historical path of "securing his defences" (with land taken from his neighbours), the "Red Menace" theory will get a major boost.

In the short term this may lead to Britain/France/Poland supporting Hitler over the Sudetenland, not because they want to buy off future aggression, but because they fear another foreign policy disaster could lead to the complete collapse of the Nazi regime - and a possible Communist revolution.

In the long term, it depends on if/how El Pip edits the events - but if there's no breakdown in the West, sooner or later Britain and France are going to have to decide their policy towards a German-Soviet showdown that they don't much want Hitler to win - and they really don't want Germany to lose.
 
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Apologies for the delay, life has been somewhat hectic. Though on the brightside I've got a few days off coming so should be able to crack on with the next update.

Now to the most pleasing mountain of replies. First off it appears my attempt at having something go wrong for Britain didn't really work. All I can say is Chamberlain and Eden are most miffed at being sidelined in Europe, so they at least think it didn't go well. Even if nobody else does.

Carlstadt Boy - I can assure you it won't be the G-3; that design would have been a match for anything up to an Iowa which is a little overkill for hunting a German cruiser. A dedicated 'cruiser killer' type design is the way forward and not just for Britain....

trekaddict - As long as France has a demilitarised Rhineland they have Germany by the throat, certain sacrifices can be made as long as they retain that position. If nothing else every extra ship Germany builds means dozens (hundreds?) less tanks and aircraft on the Rhine border, a not unimportant consideration when you are as industrially backward as France.

Carlstadt Boy/trekaddict - A cunning solution to the Rhineland problem. Fortunately the European powder keg hasn't yet blown so I've got time to mod it in.

DonnieBaseball - A decent enough analysis, but for the 'Continentalits' in the cabinet being frozen out of the big decisions is unbearable. Worse the UK is now completely out of friends and favours and still has the negotiations over Spain to get through, having a few cards to play in that hand would be helpful.

On the BC, I'd say Vanguard is somewhat overkill for taking down Scharnhorst, the new vessel doesn't need to be that good. Ideally you'd 'grow' a CA rather than 'shrink' a BB (engineering wise growing is far easier than shrinking). Problem is that even a County on massive steroids isn't quite good enough. A tough problem for the DNC.

MadVlad - Indeed, tk is an utter heathen about Vanguard's design. No appreciation of brutalist architecture at all. ;)

Game effects, basically I received a load of trade offers from various South American minors and accepted quite a few so tried to work them in. Also at some point I have planned a trade update, as I see it Empire Free Trade will have kick up a few oddities. For instance beef - the Anglo-Argentian trade agreement was mainly about keeping Argentinan beef exports going in return for various concessions to Britain. How does that work in Empire Free Trade? With Australia and South Africa keen on their own beef exports how does the mix of tarrifs and so on work.

However while there would be interesting Imperial dynamics and arguments, I'm not sure it will make a good update. In any case it would be something Britain would need to work on, even if I just reduce it to a quick paragraph. ;)

truth is life - I concur, Vanguard was a good ship and surely that's the main point. If a ship is pretty that is a bonus, but it is not the object of the exercise.

trekaddict - You remain a heathen and that's an end of it. :p :D

Duritz - On a practical level the larger powers can just say 'Shut up' and stop the debate. However it will stir up a lot of memories that were finally starting to scab over and generally raise the tension across Europe. Which is probably not what France wanted but is handy from a writing view point.

On the Pacific Mandates I wonder - How important where they? If they were a big enough deal to actually make the agenda it could work out for the best; a large Australian(British)-Japanese row would probably help the Empire wake up to the Japanese threat, particularly if the Japanese delegation said something really stupid, which they occasionally did.

Arilou - Germany isn't materially weaker, sure her reputation is in the gutter but economically she still outperforms France and the New Entente combined. And being hemmed in is good, until the caged beast lashes out in desperation and breaks free.

The real problem for Britain is a generation of diplomats used to European entanglements and used to being a leading light. Only the really old hands can remember 'Splendid Isolation' and quite a few probably remember it as being not all that Splendid towards the end.

Bafflegab - Poland is part of the New Entente with France and the Czechs. Game effect is all three are allied together, ensuring Germany gets a two fronted war if she moves east.

Barring big changes there will certainly be no Munich Agreement this timeline.

Carlstadt Boy - That sums it up and also why the Rhineland matters. With so much heavy industry concentrated there, and so much of that crucial to wartime industry, denying the area to from Germany at the start of a conflict gives France a chance to fight on something like equal terms. Or so they think.

TheExecuter - I'd say a continent spanning war is more likely, the number of disputes and alliance threatens to drag nations to war over issues they've never heard of.

For instance - Hungary, backed by Italy and Austria, goes after Transylvania (now a live problem after Versailles is dragged up again) and tries to bully Romania into giving up. Romania refuses, Hungary starts border antics that turn into shooting exchanges which become outright war. Romania calls in the Little Entente (Yugoslavia and the Czechs) who are also worried about Hungarian ambitions and they declare war on Hungary. Italy jumps in to try and seize the Dalmatian coast from Yugoslavia and drags along Austria from the Triple Pact. The Czechs, worried about the expanding war, call in the New Entente of France and Poland who join the war. Meanwhile Bulgaria sees a chance to kick Romania while she's surrounded and also declares to get back her lost territory. With Europe aflame and France distracted Germany decides to exploit the confusion and reclaim any Germanic looking territory nearby, which prompts further declarations of war as they are resisted.

Not saying that's going to happen, but it's not an unlikely permutation given the countless territorial problems festering in Europe.


---
Right getting late and I have an early start, I promise to reply to the rest of your much appreciated comments tomorrow.
 
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El Pip - Pacific Manadates are unlikely to be an issue. Just threw 'em in for form's sake...

Lyons wouldn't bother turning up. It just wasn't his thing. He was most often portrayed as a Koala due to his laid back and friendly demeanour. A reasuring face to get Australia through the Depression.

Hughes is still in parliament and thinks he's a mover and shaker but in reality he has minimal influence and little real power. Lyons wouldn't send him.

Menzies would want to go but as Attorney General has little reason to be sent. He'd also block Hughes from going.

Senator George Pearce, Minister for External Affairs, and Senator Thomas Brennan, Minister without Portfolio, are the most likely to be sent, perhaps as a double team to make up for our lack of real influence.

Neither is a showman and would most likely only speak up if something they are interested in is mentioned. Neither would raise their own issues or attempt to shape an agenda.

Brennan was a minor minister who's area of responsibility was trade. Snooping out trade opportunities would be his brief.

Pearce was a close confidant of Billy Hughes and would be a compromise solution acceptable to all. He would protect Hughes' legacy but doesn't have the ability to consider improving it. As a former Defense Minister (for Labor during the Great War and the UAP after) he would be most interested in the European discussions.

A quiet conference for the Australians... for once! ;)

merrick - My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I agree with your assessment of Hitler's propaganda plans but not the outcome. Don't forget Poland is sitting in the middle and still doing its job of keeping the two parties apart. As long as the New Entente lasts I can't see them coming to blows... and if Poland disappears then the UK will have already picked a side.

Luckily, it's up to Pippy to get all this worked out and we can just sit back and attack him when he gets it wrong! :)

Cheers,
Dury.
 
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If we are going to be realistic we also have to remember that historically the german response to WWII wasn't particularly enthusiastic at the beginning... And that was after more or less four years of unbroken foreign policy successes. I suspect Hitler would face far more internal opposition (especially from the military) ATL where he has been humbled. (Which is not to say that they would succeed, mind)
 
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TheExecuter - I'd say a continent spanning war is more likely, the number of disputes and alliance threatens to drag nations to war over issues they've never heard of.

For instance - Hungary, backed by Italy and Austria, goes after Transylvania (now a live problem after Versailles is dragged up again) and tries to bully Romania into giving up. Romania refuses, Hungary starts border antics that turn into shooting exchanges which become outright war. Romania calls in the Little Entente (Yugoslavia and the Czechs) who are also worried about Hungarian ambitions and they declare war on Hungary. Italy jumps in to try and seize the Dalmatian coast from Yugoslavia and drags along Austria from the Triple Pact. The Czechs, worried about the expanding war, call in the New Entente of France and Poland who join the war. Meanwhile Bulgaria sees a chance to kick Romania while she's surrounded and also declares to get back her lost territory. With Europe aflame and France distracted Germany decides to exploit the confusion and reclaim any Germanic looking territory nearby, which prompts further declarations of war as they are resisted.

Which is all the more reason Britain should keep a good distance and wait for the fire to burn out (eventually) before stepping in. I think British involvement in this scenario would just be unnecessary bloodshed for them over other peoples' problems.
 
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Davout - The fly in the ointment is Spain, Britain is committed to the affair and feels she has to see it through. Partly pride, partly fears about an unfriendly Spain seizing all those British assets and partly worries about what will happen over Gibraltar if things go wrong.

On the Naval side there's no real threat, war with France is still considered unlikely, however there is annoyance at needing to build more tonnage in Europe to face off against an expanded German navy. Those ships could have been sent East or not built and the money used to lower taxes prior to the next election. ;)

Thanks on noticing the double act as well, glad the effort wasn't wasted. :)

Sir Humphrey - Wise words Sir H. As always you are the voice of sanity and reason.
ja.gif


Nathan Madien - Modern thinking says Balance of Power is perhaps over-rated. However Britain has the last of the old Victorians as PM so I doubt it's completely out of fashion. Unfortunately.

RAFspeak - The problem is, what does Britain gain from continuing the Entente Cordial? To be brutal France was not there when Britain was looking for support and is currently backing a bunch of communist in Spain against a proper, respectable government in waiting (from Britain's perspective at least ;) ).

To continue the relationship risks being dragged into a new war with Germany or a conflict in Eastern/Central Europe over a territory most Britons couldn't pronounce let alone find on a map.

The potential price is high and the benefits non-existent, sentimentality or not I think it's dying and may not recover.

Atlantic Friend - That was my reading of him, a man of entirely contradictory convictions, some more deeply held than others, but capable of passionately arguing for any of them. Till push came to shove when he could switch across with barely a stumble.

Van der Gent - That is a decidedly controversial view. I advise you to compare and contrast HMS Rodney with HMS Hood. If you still believe there is no aesthetic difference I would recommend consulting an optician.

Atlantic Friend - She did have a slight hint of.. steam-punk(?).. about her, certainly the 15" guns and all those rad-domes and attentas didn't really seem right, a very visible clash of technologies.

DonnieBaseball - To be fair the actual saying was "If it is right, it looks right" which is subtly different and, of course, was only supposed to apply to things actually facing fluids. Hence why the hull on it's own (with no superstructure) unquestionably looks good, particularly that rakeish flared bow.

Arrgh time short again. I really must stop doing this at the end of an evening, but sadly it's the only time slot I have free. Such is life.
 
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To continue the relationship risks being dragged into a new war with Germany or a conflict in Eastern/Central Europe over a territory most Britons couldn't pronounce let alone find on a map.

Completely untrue. An overwhelming number of Britons know full well that Central Europe is 'somewhere over there'.

As for France, I wouldn't discount them quite yet. Wouldn't necessarily back their play either, but at some point the Germans or the Soviets will cross the line, and then for better or for worse Britain and France will need to work together, no matter what happened in Spain or Abyssinia.
 
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