Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

The Butterfly Effect: A British AAR

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Reader mode
I must confess my (limited) understanding of the Spanish Civil War held that the handful of Soviet officers were fairly useful, but almost always over-ruled by the far more numerous commissars/GRU/military intelligence types who did still believe that charging machine guns was a viable tactic. Certainly if they'd followed their own doctrine of the time they wouldn't be charging machine guns, the Soviet officer corps had learnt that lesson (and then Stalin killed most of them and so all new ideas were 'forgotten' as being unsound. Which went well.)

So on that basis I'd assumed that a Republican unit led by Soviet advisers (not Spanish communists or Soviet political officers) would be fairly competent.

But if I am wrong, and only the dregs of the Soviet officer corps were sent to Spain, I'll have large numbers of heroic Republican militia men getting slaughtered charging into the teeth of Vickers finest. Keep up this sterling work and the Monarchists will win easily! :D
 
  • 1
Reactions:
El Pip said:
I must confess my (limited) understanding of the Spanish Civil War held that the handful of Soviet officers were fairly useful, but almost always over-ruled by the far more numerous commissars/GRU/military intelligence types who did still believe that charging machine guns was a viable tactic. Certainly if they'd followed their own doctrine of the time they wouldn't be charging machine guns, the Soviet officer corps had learnt that lesson (and then Stalin killed most of them and so all new ideas were 'forgotten' as being unsound. Which went well.)

So on that basis I'd assumed that a Republican unit led by Soviet advisers (not Spanish communists or Soviet political officers) would be fairly competent.

But if I am wrong, and only the dregs of the Soviet officer corps were sent to Spain, I'll have large numbers of heroic Republican militia men getting slaughtered charging into the teeth of Vickers finest. Keep up this sterling work and the Monarchists will win easily! :D
Click to expand...

I guess what I'm saying is that you don't get one without the other and you also have to take into account the political pressure that was placed on frontline, elite units (the International brigades for instance) to be in action constantly, and to show the superiority of the modern [insert ideological position here] man.

Perhaps the smaller role of the Soviets in TTL means there are less commissars and more officers - overall a good thing - but the external pressures from Spanish superiors, Russian superiors and the civilian PSOE/PCE leadership would still be immense for the tanks to do SOMETHING! If it isn't charge across the bridge, then blow them up and head back towards Burgos but don't sit there doing nothing.

But what of my question about the width of the salient? Is an attack from the south, or the transfer of at least part of the Tank units south an option?

Sorry to harp on these points but obviously the destruction of the 1st Armoured Division is of critical concern to this die hard Republican... :)

Dury.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Well...
Having started reading this last month I
1) never would have thought I'd actually make it to the end of almost 200 pages
2) never would have thought that actually reaching the end of those 200 pages would leave me hungry for more, but the last couple of pages were being read with an 'I hope there's still a few more pages beyond this one' attitude... and then the inevitable, nay, the unthinkable occurred: I've actually reached the end! Curses!! After the comfortable situation I have been in (reading whenever I want) I am now in the situation where I have to wait for an update just like the rest of the plebs, a truly horrifying prospect! :eek:

Anyway, if the polls are still open for a next update: 3) Peruvian-Ecuadorian border clashes :D

Edit: well, forgot to explicitly mention Bravo and well done, old chap! When's the next update? ;)
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Duritz said:
...but the external pressures from Spanish superiors, Russian superiors and the civilian PSOE/PCE leadership would still be immense for the tanks to do SOMETHING! If it isn't charge across the bridge, then blow them up and head back towards Burgos but don't sit there doing nothing.
Click to expand...

You forget the default doctrine of every army on earth (including, if my personal memories of service with it serve, your own in Australia): "hurry up and wait".

A Failed Lurker
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Duritz - The width of the salient is fairly wide, not due to any efforts from the Monarchists but because the area is fairly sparsely populated with towns. At this stage I'm imaging front lines in this part of Spain consisting of garrisoned towns rather than actual continuous lines. Take out a string of towns up a road and you eliminate the only enemy troops for scores of miles in any direction.

Going south will be tricky for the Soviets. After a quick look at the map the nearest river crossing still in their hands is ~20ish miles away as the crow flies, so a minimum of a 40 mile round trip. The monarchist fortress at Siguenza is only ~30 miles away and you can bet the 1st Armoured have called for reinforcements (as have the Soviets no doubt).

Where this a flat plain things would end badly for the Monarchist tankers, fortunately for them they are behind a river with very few crossings (probably less in 1937 than the modern maps show, but even I draw the line at going back to period Spanish maps to find out when certain bridges were built). They are going to be fine, any attack is only going to end with a great many dead lefties.

As part of my efforts to be fair I've tried to have the Republicans be at least occasionally be competent and avoid crippling themselves in stupid suicidal attacks. But if you keep this up I may be forced into a 'Charge of the International Brigades' just to keep you happy!

j'ordos - A commendably epic effort, you can congratulate yourself on having got through at least 180,000 words of update plus who knows how much else. Well done, and I'm glad you think it was worth it. :)

The next update will occur.. This week? I think I can see a free evening Thursday so I'm hoping to get one out then. But no promises I'm afraid.

sr999 - You may have failed at lurking, but you have succeed at commenting. Which is always a good thing for a writer to see. I must confess though my position is to assume Kurtie is already mad unless he can prove the contrary. Excellent point on Army doctrine though.


Following up on j'ordos' idea I think it is one again time for a poll on the next update. Once the second half of the tank update appears we will be leaving Spain temporarily, thus leaving the question of where. The options as I see them;

1) Peruvian-Ecuadorian border clashes
2) Japan's poking everybody with sticks
3) Franco-British industrial relations
4) Something else I've promised to do at some point but have since forgotten
5) The 'challenge the writer' option about something like tractors or beef production that will probably win.

Update options 2 and 3 are going to happen at some point for vital reasons of plot, so it's just a question of which of them I do first. However Latin American border clashes (and possibly more!) may or may not happen depending on the level of interest, so if it's not voted for it probably wont happen at all. And of course on past experience there will be an unusual suggestion that will end up winning! :D
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I shall vote for 2) and 5) combined, thusly; some ruddy fool has been spreading insane rumours that the Japanese are working on 'Wonder weapon' or 'Super science' airplanes. :eek: Its been foolishly put about, that the next generation of in-service Jap fighter will be able to fly twice as far, as fast, and out-turn the prototype Spitfire :eek: ...and be canon-armed and take off from an aircraft carrier to boot! Nonsense, of course, but it would certainly make one confident when poking people with sticks... :)

Keep up the jolly good work, El Pip, whichever course you steer us down next.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
El Pip;12147304[B said:
j'ordos[/B] - A commendably epic effort, you can congratulate yourself on having got through at least 180,000 words of update plus who knows how much else. Well done, and I'm glad you think it was worth it. :)

The next update will occur.. This week? I think I can see a free evening Thursday so I'm hoping to get one out then. But no promises I'm afraid.

1) Peruvian-Ecuadorian border clashes
2) Japan's poking everybody with sticks
3) Franco-British industrial relations
4) Something else I've promised to do at some point but have since forgotten
5) The 'challenge the writer' option about something like tractors or beef production that will probably win.

Update options 2 and 3 are going to happen at some point for vital reasons of plot, so it's just a question of which of them I do first. However Latin American border clashes (and possibly more!) may or may not happen depending on the level of interest, so if it's not voted for it probably wont happen at all. And of course on past experience there will be an unusual suggestion that will end up winning! :D
Click to expand...

You just write one when you can and want, I wouldn't want you to get the idea that there's a tremendous pressure on you here. at least, officially
Never thought I'd be in this position, but then I thought an AAR started in 2005 running for close to 200 pages would be closer to completion than this :D

Still one vote a day? We could combine 1) & 5)
Peruvian-Ecuadorian border conflict featuring Czech tanks, Italian and US biplanes, and IOOPC oil? Too easy maybe, so we'll add cocoa and bananas to stay in the agricultural branch :)
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Industrial relations between Dustbowlers and home-working knitting groups in San Diego?
 
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
3) I want to hear Eden shouting: "Will no one rid me of these turbulent Frenchies?" :D
 
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
j'ordos said:
Peruvian-Ecuadorian border conflict featuring Czech tanks, Italian and US biplanes, and IOOPC oil? Too easy maybe, so we'll add cocoa and bananas to stay in the agricultural branch :)
Click to expand...

Seconded - I want internationally supplied petroleum based regional warfare triggered by fruit tariffs. Its why we love you Pip. :D
 
  • 1
Reactions:
El Pip said:
Duritz - The width of the salient is fairly wide, not due to any efforts from the Monarchists but because the area is fairly sparsely populated with towns. At this stage I'm imaging front lines in this part of Spain consisting of garrisoned towns rather than actual continuous lines. Take out a string of towns up a road and you eliminate the only enemy troops for scores of miles in any direction.

Going south will be tricky for the Soviets. After a quick look at the map the nearest river crossing still in their hands is ~20ish miles away as the crow flies, so a minimum of a 40 mile round trip. The monarchist fortress at Siguenza is only ~30 miles away and you can bet the 1st Armoured have called for reinforcements (as have the Soviets no doubt).

Where this a flat plain things would end badly for the Monarchist tankers, fortunately for them they are behind a river with very few crossings (probably less in 1937 than the modern maps show, but even I draw the line at going back to period Spanish maps to find out when certain bridges were built). They are going to be fine, any attack is only going to end with a great many dead lefties.

As part of my efforts to be fair I've tried to have the Republicans be at least occasionally be competent and avoid crippling themselves in stupid suicidal attacks. But if you keep this up I may be forced into a 'Charge of the International Brigades' just to keep you happy!
Click to expand...

Thank you for your explanation. Having studied Google maps extensively I can accept your arguments (but obviously I'll deny saying that if anyone asks). Very sporting of you to suggest Republicans get things right occasionally... especially given the modern US example!;)

Following up on j'ordos' idea I think it is one again time for a poll on the next update. Once the second half of the tank update appears we will be leaving Spain temporarily, thus leaving the question of where. The options as I see them;

1) Peruvian-Ecuadorian border clashes
2) Japan's poking everybody with sticks
3) Franco-British industrial relations
4) Something else I've promised to do at some point but have since forgotten
5) The 'challenge the writer' option about something like tractors or beef production that will probably win.

Update options 2 and 3 are going to happen at some point for vital reasons of plot, so it's just a question of which of them I do first. However Latin American border clashes (and possibly more!) may or may not happen depending on the level of interest, so if it's not voted for it probably wont happen at all. And of course on past experience there will be an unusual suggestion that will end up winning! :D
Click to expand...

I shall throw my support behind option 3... what a burden for it to carry... :p

Dury.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
5) gets my vote, and I challenge Pip to write on the military value of windmills.

The military applications of the windmill are oft ignored, which is a shame. Because how else do we grind wheat to make flour with which to bake bread? Guns and butter are useless if you have no bread to go with them. And how else do you maintain a water canal to slow the advance of invading enemies if you cannot use electric or diesel fueled pumps? That's when you build a windmill! Who knows? One day windmills may power the top secret {CLASSIFIED} machine located in {CLASSIFIED} the {CLASSIFIED} use to decipher {CLASSIFIED} {CLASSIFIED}! Windmill technology needs to be taken into account.
While I have no doubt that the Dutch are in possession of the most advanced windmills used in an infrastructural role, let's not also forget the Spanish sucesses in their military applications. In particular, how in La Mancha the windmills provide an insurmountable boon to the defenders, as opposing forces constantly seek to conquer them and keep being repulsed by them. Truly the windmill is the fortress of the 20th century!

And hereby also propose all landforts in HoI be changed into windmills. Furthermore, every windmill in a province provides free energy resources to the controller, increased manpower production modifier, free supplies, and grants that province the 'river' terrain modifier on top of their normal defence modifier.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
So the current standings

1) Peruvian-Ecuadorian border clashes - 3 Votes + Agricultural and oil based japery
2) Japan's poking everybody with sticks - 2 Votes + irrational fear of the Zero
3) Franco-British industrial relations - 4 Votes
4) Something else I've promised to do at some point but have since forgotten - No Votes or Nominations - Eliminated
5) The 'challenge the writer' option about something like tractors or beef production that will probably win. - Windmills - 2 Votes, San Diego Dustbowlers vs Home Knitting - 1 Vote

So it looks like Franco-British relations in the lead, followed closely by South American warfare fuelled by the agro-oil complex with Japan poking things with sticks tied in third with windmills. The outside choice of dustbowlers vs knitting is probably going to get eliminated as it would be horrifically dull. I think I could do it, but it would be boring.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Reader mode
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back