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So basically then armoured carriers were a better choice when you feasibly could defend against the payload of multiple planes, and potentially the planes themselves ramming into you. After such a time where a single bomb or missile can sink or destroy pretty much anything though, armour seems like a bit of a waste of time (beyond a sensible amount)?

Exactly. These days there is a certain amount of armor, but blast effects are still going to (at the very least) cause a mission-kill. Unlike in OTL, where patching the flight deck was an easy (relatively) affair, if the catapults or arresting wires are knocked out, that flight deck is NMC, except for helos, and it doesn't matter if you sink the vessel.
 
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Exactly. These days there is a certain amount of armor, but blast effects are still going to (at the very least) cause a mission-kill. Unlike in OTL, where patching the flight deck was an easy (relatively) affair, if the catapults or arresting wires are knocked out, that flight deck is NMC, except for helos, and it doesn't matter if you sink the vessel.

"To fight and conquer is not supreme excellence, supreme excellence, is to defeat your enemy without fighting."

Or as I heard someone smarter than me put it: "War is not about killing the enemy, it's about getting the enemy to stop fighting."
 
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First off I must just thank @Wraith11B for taking the top of page, buys me some more time to finish the next chapter which is getting a bit involved.

Huh...don't hear that often, on HOI pages anyway.
It is the heavy burden I carry - if I don't go into exhaustive detail on these things who will?

Mm, tricky subject. Not even a portrait of Iberia would work given the factions involved. Maybe on one side they can have the carlist monarch, their boss, and on the other side the British Foreign Office, his boss.
The main Foreign Office building on King Charles Street is quite a handsome building so I would support this. Alas I fear it'll end up being something a tad more Spanish. El Escorial and Santiago Cathedral, that sort of thing. After a massive bun fights (paella fight?) over who's building goes on the highest denomination note.

Definitely the USS Franklin should have been scrapped rather than rebuilt, but (as I have found information about it) it was two bombs that were semi-armored piercing going through several decks etc, etc... but the reconstruction was certainly unjustified (given that she never resumed flight ops). Regardless, the kamikaze was a failure, as only one carrier was ever sunk by a plane-strike, most of the damage coming from the bombs or secondary effects of fire. Further, American carriers tended to keep the deck park while British carriers were more for striking aircraft into the hangar. This of course led to significant air wing sizes, but also that there were inevitably aircraft which were somewhere in the process of fueling and/or arming, creating the conditions needed for significant damage control problems.
The Royal Navy knew it would be operating in the Atlantic and North Sea, where a deck park is a recipe for getting planes lost. This, and the lack of planes @TheExecuter has mentioned, pushed them away from deck parks in OTL. By the time the British Pacific Fleet was put together they were using deck parks as the risk had gone and they had the planes to make it worthwhile.

In Butterfly, the memory of deck parks has been dredged up (the RN did experiment with it, everyone experimented with everything inter-war) and is there as an option if they get the numbers of aircraft to make it worthwhile.

Good to see that you take your own medicine! ;) But definitely eventually the UNREP
Agreed on both points. :D

True enough. Given the punishment that the American carriers sustained, was there really ever a question that armored flight decks were not the way to go?
I suppose there must have been some arguing at least in concept for absurdly cheap carriers which were essentially floating airstrips and nothing else, deployed in far greater numbers. Minimal crew, enough supplies to stock the planes but no really loss if sunk...indeed, as you could send a convoy of them out, didn't matter if a few were.
That argument was made and it gifted the US fleet the majestic USS Ranger. It was a sh...ocking carrier from which the US learnt that very cheap, limited capability carriers did make the maximum use of Treaty tonnage but were a terrible idea. The Royal Navy had some limited carriers already (HMS Argus) and had reached a similar conclusion.

I was told that the US Navy went for the unarmored design because they ran some wargames for the pacific which "proved" that whoever struck first would win. So they didn't bother with armor and used the saved space to maximize strike-craft storage capacity so they could throw as many planes at the enemy as possible. That's the benefit of going unarmored, more planes, not better fuel consumption. Short-leggedness is a unrelated British foible.
The RN and IJN also learnt that lesson in their inter-war wargames. All three powers drew different lessons however, as we shall see in the next chapter. (The IJN doctrine discussion may be saved for a later chapter, because it is its own special form of madness.)

That jives with everything that I've heard/read. Basically, the aviators recognized that the carriers were going to be found, it was just a matter of time. The carrier needed to win the ISR (intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) phase, to launch out the pulse of an Alpha strike, which had the added benefit of clearing the decks of aircraft which would prove (as it was OTL) to remove the major source of weapons and fuel which could harm the carrier.

Regardless, I highly recommend Innovations in Carrier Aviation for those looking to get an in-depth look at how information exchange both within a branch and between allies went forward.
An excellent recommendation, thank you for that.

Broadly I agree with the first part, reality appears to have been a bit less clear cut but that is always the case. ;)

So basically then armoured carriers were a better choice when you feasibly could defend against the payload of multiple planes, and potentially the planes themselves ramming into you. After such a time where a single bomb or missile can sink or destroy pretty much anything though, armour seems like a bit of a waste of time (beyond a sensible amount)?
Exactly. These days there is a certain amount of armor, but blast effects are still going to (at the very least) cause a mission-kill. Unlike in OTL, where patching the flight deck was an easy (relatively) affair, if the catapults or arresting wires are knocked out, that flight deck is NMC, except for helos, and it doesn't matter if you sink the vessel.
You probably could design a blast-resistant catapult / arresting wire system. Put in several of them, on a hydraulic ram system that pulls them down under armour plate when the aircraft a launched, something like that. Tricky to do and would have operational impacts, but I'd say possible.

It's not been done because there has been a major doctrine shift towards active defences over passive, the idea that using xxx tonnage of weight for a close range SAM system, chaff launchers, ECM and a CIWS gets better results than amour. Apart from better effectiveness all of those can also be relatively easily upgraded when the threat gets worse, whereas armour changes require essentially rebuilding the ship. It's the better solution, as long as you do spend the money on the active defences and don't just pocket the savings from not building the passive ones into the hull...

"To fight and conquer is not supreme excellence, supreme excellence, is to defeat your enemy without fighting."

Or as I heard someone smarter than me put it: "War is not about killing the enemy, it's about getting the enemy to stop fighting."

"A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness."
Z3wSg01.gif
 
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The main Foreign Office building on King Charles Street is quite a handsome building

It's one of those beautiful places ruined by the people within them.

the idea that using xxx tonnage of weight for a close range SAM system, chaff launchers, ECM and a CIWS gets better results than amour.

Probably better at protecting the crew too.
 
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It's one of those beautiful places ruined by the people within them.

now call me old fashioned, but I for one, take a gorgeous building ruined by people inside, rather than a hideous building. after all, Aesthetics is everything.

The RN and IJN also learnt that lesson in their inter-war wargames. All three powers drew different lessons however, as we shall see in the next chapter. (The IJN doctrine discussion may be saved for a later chapter, because it is its own special form of madness.)

TBH Ship designing at the Interwar era was quite maddening. as were certain doctrines on land war as well.
 
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now call me old fashioned, but I for one, take a gorgeous building ruined by people inside, rather than a hideous building. after all, Aesthetics is everything.

Honesty is good too. And functionality. That building is a bastard to heat since it's full of massive halls and huge holes cut through the middle.

TBH Ship designing at the Interwar era was quite maddening. as were certain doctrines on land war as well.

The RN has an actual naval shooting war with a 'modern' navy in ttl though, in which they used all classes including battleships and carriers to great effect. I suspect they'll draw the conclusion that carriers are very useful, especially in the vast pacific, and that battleships are 'clearly' still vital as battle winners and fleet pinners.
 
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First off I must just thank @Wraith11B for taking the top of page, buys me some more time to finish the next chapter which is getting a bit involved.

Always here for you, sir.

The Royal Navy knew it would be operating in the Atlantic and North Sea, where a deck park is a recipe for getting planes lost. This, and the lack of planes @TheExecuter has mentioned, pushed them away from deck parks in OTL. By the time the British Pacific Fleet was put together they were using deck parks as the risk had gone and they had the planes to make it worthwhile.

In Butterfly, the memory of deck parks has been dredged up (the RN did experiment with it, everyone experimented with everything inter-war) and is there as an option if they get the numbers of aircraft to make it worthwhile.

Fair, and something that I doubt most people consider. With much of the North Sea within range of land-based air, clearing a deck load of aircraft is probably a time-intensive evolution, which leaves significant forces on the deck, which if you get caught with the proverbial pants down is a recipe for disaster. Not to mention that no one wants their aircraft sliding around and breaking stuff.

That argument was made and it gifted the US fleet the majestic USS Ranger. It was a sh...ocking carrier from which the US learnt that very cheap, limited capability carriers did make the maximum use of Treaty tonnage but were a terrible idea. The Royal Navy had some limited carriers already (HMS Argus) and had reached a similar conclusion.

The RN and IJN also learnt that lesson in their inter-war wargames. All three powers drew different lessons however, as we shall see in the next chapter. (The IJN doctrine discussion may be saved for a later chapter, because it is its own special form of madness.)

Wouldn't the Wasp be a better candidate for "trying to cheap out to fill tonnage"? The USN at least recognized that Ranger wasn't going to be facing down the IJN, even when there was a premium on flattops.

An excellent recommendation, thank you for that.

Always keeping an eye out for readings that make my writings better!

You probably could design a blast-resistant catapult / arresting wire system. Put in several of them, on a hydraulic ram system that pulls them down under armour plate when the aircraft a launched, something like that. Tricky to do and would have operational impacts, but I'd say possible.

I'd hate to be the engineer trying to work out a catapult that has enough oomph to throw a loaded C2 Greyhound or E2D Hawkeye into the air while at the same time being able to be retractable... :eek:

It's not been done because there has been a major doctrine shift towards active defences over passive, the idea that using xxx tonnage of weight for a close range SAM system, chaff launchers, ECM and a CIWS gets better results than amour. Apart from better effectiveness all of those can also be relatively easily upgraded when the threat gets worse, whereas armour changes require essentially rebuilding the ship. It's the better solution, as long as you do spend the money on the active defences and don't just pocket the savings from not building the passive ones into the hull...

*cough*The current Queen Elizabeths, you mean?*cough* The other bit is that trying to hide on the ocean is difficult, but I'd imagine that it's more about pushing the bubble out as far as possible. Doesn't matter if the carrier has enough countermeasures if its escorts and air wing mean you can't get within weapons range.

"A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness."
Z3wSg01.gif

mgZIxZZ.png
 
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I'd hate to be the engineer trying to work out a catapult that has enough oomph to throw a loaded C2 Greyhound or E2D Hawkeye into the air while at the same time being able to be retractable... :eek:

Brunel could do it. But then again, it would involve Brunel with ship design and that is a very dangerous thing to do for both the ship and whoever is funding it.

*cough*The current Queen Elizabeths, you mean?*cough*

We do not speak of it. Because we shall never stop if we do. No reactor, no planes, no warheads, cancelled, uncancelled sister ship, no crew provision, no armour or weapons, billions of pounds overbudget...

I'm dreading the day it had to sail next to the Amercian carrier fleet.

The other bit is that trying to hide on the ocean is difficult, but I'd imagine that it's more about pushing the bubble out as far as possible. Doesn't matter if the carrier has enough countermeasures if its escorts and air wing mean you can't get within weapons range.

This is true and a problem NATO has had for decades now. Frankly, the only countries with decent navies are in NATO, and the only countries who have blue water fleets are never going to fight each other on the high seas. So navies sort of exist to power project trade and disputed waters (business as usual) and for transporting the actual armed forces around.

...

I fear this is going to turn into a Falklands war debate.
 
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The RN could do UNREP, just fairly slowly as they did it stern to bow normally not side to side. Not researched enough to find out why they did that, but it's something they can do if they see the need, they just don't see the need.

Well - 'twould appear that the stern to bow method was favoured as (it was thought) it was easier to do an emergency breakaway and minimised the OOW manoeuvres required for abreast replenishment. But I think your last point is the strongest - why, with a well developed network of bases around the world, was RAS anything other than something for in extremis situations only. It was the BPF experience where the RN saw the capacity of the USN, coupled with the lack of resupply facilities, that gave it an insight for the future.

And as for QNLZ - I have to confess that while BAe and the MOD have handed the RN a complete mess, the RN is doing its damnedest to make it work. Give them some decent manpower (so that their precious FF/DD escorts are not tied up to free up crews), iron out the snags (please God avoid the T45 nightmare), get the F35 on a proper footing, make Crowsnest work, sort the Tide Class out (fitting given my point on replen above) and please, please, stop the T45 P&P issues and the UK can do TG ops. Our sailors and the nation deserve it. Rant over.
 
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Brunel could do it. But then again, it would involve Brunel with ship design and that is a very dangerous thing to do for both the ship and whoever is funding it.

I assume that you mean Isambard Kingdom Brunel? Just reading a bit of the Wiki on that guy... he probably could!

We do not speak of it
. Because we shall never stop if we do. No reactor, no planes, no warheads, cancelled, uncancelled sister ship, no crew provision, no armour or weapons, billions of pounds overbudget...

I'm dreading the day it had to sail next to the American carrier fleet.

They need to get France, Brazil, Australia and Japan on board with procuring their own examples (figure two each for them all) for those nations' F35s. That would have driven the cost down substantially...

This is true and a problem NATO has had for decades now. Frankly, the only countries with decent navies are in NATO, and the only countries who have blue water fleets are never going to fight each other on the high seas. So navies sort of exist to power project trade and disputed waters (business as usual) and for transporting the actual armed forces around.

I guess the ROKN and JMSDF don't count? :D China and Russia have fleets that are powerful enough to give me pause, though the Chinese are obviously the greater threat. The main issue is that the wide availability of anti-ship missiles (relatively cheap and plentiful) versus the limited magazine of an at-sea naval force... *waves hand* small combatants are almost always the way to go for small forces.

I fear this is going to turn into a Falklands war debate.

Meh. Probably.
 
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I assume that you mean Isambard Kingdom Brunel? Just reading a bit of the Wiki on that guy... he probably could!

Of course he could. The man was the wonka of engineering. Almost everything he did was brilliant. I mean, even the ships were brilliant, they were just bloody massive and so far ahead of their time that he bankrupted several companies. I've heard it said that the SS Great Britian arriving in New York was like a space ship landing at Heathrow today. Made of iron, propelled by screws, massive and fast.

Man was a genius. And mad. And short, so he wore a massive hat and verbally evicerated anyone who told him no.

They need to get France, Brazil, Australia and Japan on board with procuring their own examples (figure two each for them all) for those nations' F35s. That would have driven the cost down substantially...

Wait, is or was that on the cards at some point? What the fuck does France need an aircraft carrier for? Or Brazil for that matter...

I guess the ROKN and JMSDF don't count? :D

Not really. Not unless we count Finland, Indonesia etc for having large navies too. Not that we're a naval threat either, but that's kinda how it goes. Unless you go overkill with your boats now, which no one can really afford to do (but the us and china are giving it a good try), it's not that hard to sink them or fend them off with various other things, most of which are way cheaper or more versatile.

China and Russia have fleets that are powerful enough to give me pause,

But the most useful and dangerous ships in the modern world are carriers and subs, one of which realises on having a good airforce to back up the navy and the other requiring really good tech. And nukes. If you have nuclear submarines, you've kinda become untouchable until we figure out a way of disabling them really effectively and quickly. The Chinese building up their fleet is worrying, because they might genuinely use it. I doubt the Russians are ever going to use their fleet offensively, unless for some reason they'd decide to invade Finland or something.

The main issue is that the wide availability of anti-ship missiles (relatively cheap and plentiful) versus the limited magazine of an at-sea naval force... *waves hand* small combatants are almost always the way to go for small forces.

As we saw with...Err...Argentina.

That's not to say naval warfare is dead. A lot of countries are investing a lot into it. It's just...we really aren't anymore. Which is odd, in a way, but also sort of makes sense. What's the point in having an armed forces of you don't want to use it anyway and can't really afford the expenses? Had a similar question asked to me in the Netherlands, who basically have the same problem we do.
 
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Of course he could. The man was the wonka of engineering. Almost everything he did was brilliant. I mean, even the ships were brilliant, they were just bloody massive and so far ahead of their time that he bankrupted several companies. I've heard it said that the SS Great Britian arriving in New York was like a space ship landing at Heathrow today. Made of iron, propelled by screws, massive and fast.

Man was a genius. And mad. And short, so he wore a massive hat and verbally evicerated anyone who told him no.

Sounds like a character straight out of Ayn Rand.

Wait, is or was that on the cards at some point? What the fuck does France need an aircraft carrier for? Or Brazil for that matter...

Pride... and power projection. They try to remain relevant. Brazil is trying to divest its' carrier (an old French one) But France and the UK were definitely supposed to be working together on the Queen Elizabeth, before the French (as ever) pulled out of the program. Brazil wants to be a regional power player, as part of the BRICS, they could rate.

Not really. Not unless we count Finland, Indonesia etc for having large navies too. Not that we're a naval threat either, but that's kinda how it goes. Unless you go overkill with your boats now, which no one can really afford to do (but the us and china are giving it a good try), it's not that hard to sink them or fend them off with various other things, most of which are way cheaper or more versatile.

I mentioned the ROKN and JMSDFs because they are (aside from Australia) the only non-NATO nations that operate Aegis-equipped surface combatants. Both also operate "Amphibious Landing Ship, Helicopter" and "Helicopter Destroyers," respectively, which are basically light aircraft carriers. Japan has already begun refitting the two most recent fleet additions to operate their F35Bs. Heck, even Spain, Italy and Australia operate aircraft carriers. The Thais have a tiny one, but that's not supporting anything beyond helicopters.

I don't tend to count navies that don't have large surface combatants (anything over a frigate), hence Finland (eight fast attack craft) doesn't "rate" but Indonesia's does (seven frigates).

But the most useful and dangerous ships in the modern world are carriers and subs, one of which realises on having a good airforce to back up the navy and the other requiring really good tech. And nukes. If you have nuclear submarines, you've kinda become untouchable until we figure out a way of disabling them really effectively and quickly. The Chinese building up their fleet is worrying, because they might genuinely use it. I doubt the Russians are ever going to use their fleet offensively, unless for some reason they'd decide to invade Finland or something.

For sure. But the Russians also were showing off their naval capability during their portion of the intervention in Syria by launching cruise missiles from the Caspian Sea (because, why not?).

As we saw with...Err...Argentina.

That's not to say naval warfare is dead. A lot of countries are investing a lot into it. It's just...we really aren't anymore. Which is odd, in a way, but also sort of makes sense. What's the point in having an armed forces of you don't want to use it anyway and can't really afford the expenses? Had a similar question asked to me in the Netherlands, who basically have the same problem we do.

And as we hear about in the Persian Gulf and Red Sea (Houthis). Regardless, I can't wait to read @El Pip 's latest iteration...
 
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Sounds like a character straight out of Ayn Rand.

Meh. I guess about as destructive economically to other people. And he has a university named after him, which you could compare to Objectivism's bizarre presence at various US colleges.

Pride... and power projection. They try to remain relevant. Brazil is trying to divest its' carrier (an old French one) But France and the UK were definitely supposed to be working together on the Queen Elizabeth, before the French (as ever) pulled out of the program. Brazil wants to be a regional power player, as part of the BRICS, they could rate.

I love how the french and british keep trying to make stuff together and keep falling out all the way along the line.

And as we hear about in the Persian Gulf and Red Sea (Houthis). Regardless, I can't wait to read @El Pip 's latest iteration...

For sure. Must be some pretty big naval battles coming up if everyone paid attention to the Italian war and learnt the right lessons. And some spectacular disasters coming for every wrong lesson learnt.

If the Japs don't bomb pearl harbour and the US stays rotting in itself, does their armed forces and navy stay poor? I suppose it would but that's a spectacular butterfly right there for R&D and world security/economy.
 
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I love how the french and british keep trying to make stuff together and keep falling out all the way along the line.

It's honestly most of Europe... I think the best weapon system developed by a joint European conglomerate was the Eurofighter Typhoon, which took the title from the Panavia Tornado. I don't know why NATO can't get their collective stuff together, aside from the 5.56mm round... oh well.

If the Japs don't bomb pearl harbour and the US stays rotting in itself, does their armed forces and navy stay poor? I suppose it would but that's a spectacular butterfly right there for R&D and world security/economy.

I'd imagine that given the shift in Butterfly, that there would be a lot more fertile ground for an isolationist party to come to power. Less chance for an embargo riling up Japan. And less chance for the uboat menace to cause America to come out of said isolation...
 
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I'd imagine that given the shift in Butterfly, that there would be a lot more fertile ground for an isolationist party to come to power. Less chance for an embargo riling up Japan. And less chance for the uboat menace to cause America to come out of said isolation...

Greater chance for the corporate fascists to gain more power though? The US army I imagine is pretty poor...but the navy, while tradition bound, is large and well funded...and the air force is also well funded.
 
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It's honestly most of Europe... I think the best weapon system developed by a joint European conglomerate was the Eurofighter Typhoon, which took the title from the Panavia Tornado. I don't know why NATO can't get their collective stuff together, aside from the 5.56mm round... oh well.

part of the reason is regional politics, part is economic, part is costs. part is desire to not get pulled further into the Nato experience and be forced to fight in middle east by US and Israel's command. Part is ever since Warsaw pact and USSR failed, that there has not been an enemy for NATO to fight. Part reason is France not wanting to play 2nd fiddle to US of A.

or as some would say, TLDR its many reasons.
 
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It's honestly most of Europe... I think the best weapon system developed by a joint European conglomerate was the Eurofighter Typhoon,

Wasn't it supposed to be called the 2000 but was waaay behind schedule? I'm pretty sure they started developing it to fight the Soviet union and ended being fully availible after the war in iraq started.

Amercia being isolationist does help japan with oil, and japan has thus even fewer reasons to turn south to the pacific and fight a nation currently fueling it and the resurgent british empire that just sent it's entire fleet to their backyard.

But japan does still need to expand. Maybe they'll try and rebuild the old british alliance or at least friendliness, and then go after russia instead? Given how its looking like germany is going to launch a do or die invasion of russia itself with little other option, everyone else might have to pile on too.
 
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It's one of those beautiful places ruined by the people within them.
There must have been a point when the Foreign Office weren't terrible, without having put much thought into it I am going to blame Viscount Grey as the man that started the rot, with perhaps Campbell-Bannerman as the real root cause.

There is definitely an interesting timeline in which someone competent is Britain's pre-WW1 Foreign Minister instead of Grey. Not just a chance to fix the Foreign Office and avoid the Great War (or at least avoid Britain getting dragged in) but it's early enough that Imperial Federation is just about plausible if pushed competently. Alas not.

now call me old fashioned, but I for one, take a gorgeous building ruined by people inside, rather than a hideous building. after all, Aesthetics is everything.
Also it should be easier to sack everyone inside than rebuild the hideous building.
DYAEiOu.gif


TBH Ship designing at the Interwar era was quite maddening. as were certain doctrines on land war as well.
Absolutely true.

The RN has an actual naval shooting war with a 'modern' navy in ttl though, in which they used all classes including battleships and carriers to great effect. I suspect they'll draw the conclusion that carriers are very useful, especially in the vast pacific, and that battleships are 'clearly' still vital as battle winners and fleet pinners.
Post Abyssinian Review was way back in Chapter LXIV. Broad conclusion was as you say, battleships are the main battle wining ships but aircraft are needed to support that. FAA is still "Find, Fix and Strike" with the emphasis on the first two.

Fair, and something that I doubt most people consider. With much of the North Sea within range of land-based air, clearing a deck load of aircraft is probably a time-intensive evolution, which leaves significant forces on the deck, which if you get caught with the proverbial pants down is a recipe for disaster. Not to mention that no one wants their aircraft sliding around and breaking stuff.
Or aircraft being pushed off the deck completely in rough weather. The RN may have focused on the North Sea and Atlantic in that regard, but the Pacific has it's rough moments.

The Japanese had an incident in 1935 where the 4th Fleet on wargames got caught in storm that became a Typhoon. That was one of the factors that put them off deck parks, anything that had been on deck would have been lost. Though admittedly they weren't keen even before.

Wouldn't the Wasp be a better candidate for "trying to cheap out to fill tonnage"? The USN at least recognized that Ranger wasn't going to be facing down the IJN, even when there was a premium on flattops.
Original plan was for a class of five Rangers to get the most carriers out of the US' treaty tonnage, luckily Congress gutted the plan and only one got built. (Not something the armed forces are often grateful for ;) )

War games revealed it was too much of a compromise so the USN went for the OTL plan, where as you say Wasp was a 'what we can fit in' carrier tacked on the end.

I'd hate to be the engineer trying to work out a catapult that has enough oomph to throw a loaded C2 Greyhound or E2D Hawkeye into the air while at the same time being able to be retractable... :eek:
As I tell the minions almost everything is possible, it's just some things are difficult, slow, expensive and probably not a good idea. But if the client asks then our first answer should always be "If you pay for it, then yes we can do it". Seeing the cost estimate tends to put them off, but then you can talk them round to something sane. :)

Glad you got the DS9 reference and excellent picture. :D

Brunel could do it. But then again, it would involve Brunel with ship design and that is a very dangerous thing to do for both the ship and whoever is funding it.
Ship would be absolutely fine. But I agree the owners and funders would be in all sorts of trouble.

Well - 'twould appear that the stern to bow method was favoured as (it was thought) it was easier to do an emergency breakaway and minimised the OOW manoeuvres required for abreast replenishment.
Most interesting, thank you for that. Presumably then something that actually regularly practising RAS would demonstrate as being a bit dodgy?

But I think your last point is the strongest - why, with a well developed network of bases around the world, was RAS anything other than something for in extremis situations only. It was the BPF experience where the RN saw the capacity of the USN, coupled with the lack of resupply facilities, that gave it an insight for the future.
I'm unsure on that one. Pacific operations were always a red herring for the RN and they knew it. Gulf of Thailand / South China Sea absolutely, maybe even the East China Sea for the push onto Japan. But deep Pacific Operations were a different matter entirely.

That said RAS is always useful and it's a useful tool to add flexibility so it's probably coming regardless.

At this point I am not commenting on the QE-class and modern NATO as both make me slightly depressed.

I love how the french and british keep trying to make stuff together and keep falling out all the way along the line.
It's honestly most of Europe... I think the best weapon system developed by a joint European conglomerate was the Eurofighter Typhoon, which took the title from the Panavia Tornado. I don't know why NATO can't get their collective stuff together, aside from the 5.56mm round... oh well.
You will notice the common factor in Typhoon and Tornado - No involvement from the French. This is not a coincidence. It's also unfortunate as the French are the only people in Europe apart from the British to take defence seriously and not see it as an industrial subsidy programme (Yes Germany I am looking at you).

If the Japs don't bomb pearl harbour and the US stays rotting in itself, does their armed forces and navy stay poor? I suppose it would but that's a spectacular butterfly right there for R&D and world security/economy.
Things will happen in the US beyond just festering internally and I don't think it's a massive spoiler to say there will be no OTL Pearl Harbour attack.

I'd imagine that given the shift in Butterfly, that there would be a lot more fertile ground for an isolationist party to come to power. Less chance for an embargo riling up Japan. And less chance for the uboat menace to cause America to come out of said isolation...
Oil embargo is a funny one, I sort of belief the theory that it was an accident. The theory that FDR didn't intend a full oil embargo, because everyone warned him it would provoke Japan into war, but when the bureaucracy of the State Department semi-accidentally issued a complete embargo he was too proud to back down.

On the isolationists, it does depend how well Landon's moral neutrality goes. If it goes badly the blowback (to use the approved US term) could be unpleasant.

Greater chance for the corporate fascists to gain more power though? The US army I imagine is pretty poor...but the navy, while tradition bound, is large and well funded...and the air force is also well funded.
The Army is in a poor state, but nothing noticeably worse than OTL. The Navy remains large but only moderately well funded, more on that later. The Army Air Corps has avoided the OTL Air Mail scandal, which is partly good (more pilots alive, less distractions and disruption, etc) but mostly bad as many of the deep problems around training, navigation, radios, etc have not been revealed and sorted.

US corporates are badly split, the lure of money (or at least the promise of money) has many of them backing the Republicans in Spain over the side they probably identify more with, but even there I think the Monarchist branding has put them off. Overall though with Landon in power they've got a more pro-business figure so corporate fascism looks less attractive, and it was a fringe movement to start with.

Amercia being isolationist does help japan with oil, and japan has thus even fewer reasons to turn south to the pacific and fight a nation currently fueling it and the resurgent british empire that just sent it's entire fleet to their backyard.
Landon would object to being called an isolationist and he has issued the hostage of fortune of 'moral neutrality'. If anything that is going to apply extra political pressure on him if Japan starts getting really nasty like in OTL, nothing serious but enough to be a bit awkward.

But as previously discussed, if Alf fixes the economy he can get away with almost anything, while if the US remains in depression he is doomed in the next election regardless.

But japan does still need to expand. Maybe they'll try and rebuild the old british alliance or at least friendliness, and then go after russia instead? Given how its looking like germany is going to launch a do or die invasion of russia itself with little other option, everyone else might have to pile on too.
All of this will be discussed when we get to the Japan election update.
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There must have been a point when the Foreign Office weren't terrible,

Presumably at some time there must have been a somewhat competent machine there given the amount of crazy awesome shit the british got away with in the early 19th century. If we set the required task to be 'make britian as strong as possible whilst also look acceptable to forgieners' then it becomes a bit trickier to pick a time before which everything was golden, and more picking various decades and ministers that at least met this goal most of the time.

There is definitely an interesting timeline in which someone competent is Britain's pre-WW1 Foreign Minister instead of Grey. Not just a chance to fix the Foreign Office and avoid the Great War (or at least avoid Britain getting dragged in) but it's early enough that Imperial Federation is just about plausible if pushed competently. Alas not.

We talked about this in the timelapse WW1 AAR right? It was pretty clear that 'pre-war' actually means 'before 20th century' for the most part. There's a reason alt historians gravitate to the 1880s and 90s. Alliances between different countries etc are always debatable but it is very clear the british could have done better with their own empire here, but for India probably had to start even earlier when they actually legally took over responsibility for it in the 1850s.

Any empire or federation concept has to eventually contend with how GB keeps India under heel and what happens when they inevitably have to give at least parts of it more control.

Also it should be easier to sack everyone inside than rebuild the hideous building.
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...well a socialist uprising would handle that but barring that, it's much easier to knock down a lovely old building, repalce with physical filth, eventually recognise mistake and replace it with something nice than it is to sack a department full of civil servants.

Or aircraft being pushed off the deck completely in rough weather. The RN may have focused on the North Sea and Atlantic in that regard, but the Pacific has it's rough moments.

Since the RN has a global mission and actually means it, they have to design everything for the worst sea anyway.

This brings up the point however that larger carriers could have more catapults and openings for planes to deploy quickly, yet also larger designs don't handle well in the north sea and more openings means more risk of damage from attack.

As I tell the minions almost everything is possible, it's just some things are difficult, slow, expensive and probably not a good idea. But if the client asks then our first answer should always be "If you pay for it, then yes we can do it". Seeing the cost estimate tends to put them off, but then you can talk them round to something sane. :)

Sure, like the old joke of the engineer telling musicians he can turn their amps up to 12 if they pay him. But yeah, you can do almost anything if the money and commitment is there, and funnily enough, once commited governments don't tend to back down until its waaay too late.

Ship would be absolutely fine. But I agree the owners and funders would be in all sorts of trouble.

The ship would be solid sure, I think the SS GB took over a hundred years to die despite being used as a coal barge for most of its life. But they run the risk of being far too advanced for the present day and thus requiring the RN retool in a move more compliated and expensive than the army changing its ammunition. Not that this empire wouldn't do it, and that it would probably be a good idea in the long run (see his ideas on rail gauge) but still...daunting.

I'm unsure on that one. Pacific operations were always a red herring for the RN and they knew it. Gulf of Thailand / South China Sea absolutely, maybe even the East China Sea for the push onto Japan. But deep Pacific Operations were a different matter entirely.

Not when they have an Australian navy they know the composition of and have trained to do it for them. Only time the pacific reallt becomes a mess for the RN is if the amercians for some reason decide to raise a stink there.

That said RAS is always useful and it's a useful tool to add flexibility so it's probably coming regardless.

At this point I am not commenting on the QE-class and modern NATO as both make me slightly depressed.

It arguably served it's purpose and now runs on momentum or inertia (whichever you prefer). Why europe sinks money into it i have no idea, given most of them have decided to split with Amercia in all other respects.

You will notice the common factor in Typhoon and Tornado

Good designs irrelevant to the age in which they were brought out in?

No involvement from the French.

That too. Airbus is sh-

It's also unfortunate as the French are the only people in Europe apart from the British to take defence seriously and not see it as an industrial subsidy programme (Yes Germany I am looking at you).

Well this is true in that they maintain nuclear subs. Generally speaking though, both with french and uk armed forces, i wish they were either dropped entirely or focused on far more. This half-arsed stuff is a waste of time money and lives. Germany may have the right of it by just using it as another way to fund industry. Not like we don't have a big arms industry already after all

Oil embargo is a funny one, I sort of belief the theory that it was an accident. The theory that FDR didn't intend a full oil embargo, because everyone warned him it would provoke Japan into war, but when the bureaucracy of the State Department semi-accidentally issued a complete embargo he was too proud to back down.

Since it seems he really did want war and was going to get it no matter what, that sounds more like the State Department covering its ass when they realised what he was trying to do.

On the isolationists, it does depend how well Landon's moral neutrality goes. If it goes badly the blowback (to use the approved US term) could be unpleasant.

But as previously discussed, if Alf fixes the economy he can get away with almost anything, while if the US remains in depression he is doomed in the next election regardless.

Sure. Though at this stage, especially given the idiotic credit thing with the communists, I doubt the economy will be fixed in four years. The spanish civil war will, if not push the idea of moral neutrality out of Congress, push Landon out of office.
 
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After some time out of the forum, I come back to find two Pip's new chapters but no tank porn. Disgusting.
 
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