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Mission trees are not a mandatory feature of the game, as some people have already pointed out. What they do is expand the gameplay experience of EU4, which by this time, almost 9 years after it was released, is already difficult to achieve.
But then why keep doing it? At what point is the game "finished"? As you said it is a 9 year-old game after all.
It feels most of the content that is produced nowadays is pure fluff because the dev team is afraid to touch any of the more hardcoded features of the game like the mana system.
I understand this is likely a result of EU5 being in active development but then why waste time creating content that can be just as easily replicated by mods?
 
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I feel like a lot of unfounded criticism is coming from jaded long-timers, who are missing the original high when they just discovered the game, and no DLC after that is able to fill the void.
 
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I feel like a lot of unfounded criticism is coming from jaded long-timers, who are missing the original high when they just discovered the game, and no DLC after that is able to fill the void.
I think we should be more appropriate to discuss a game here (mechanics, development practices, etc.), but not motivations of participants. Whoever is playing this game and whatever do they feel doesn't make their points less or more valid.
 
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PD: In our CD Team there are no interns, the only historian here is me and I held a Ph.D. (so I know a couple of things about historical research and History), and we also have some programmers. So I suppose ignorance is bold.

Having a Ph.D. in history, are you aware that the text for the new Danzig Confederation was lifted entirely from Wikipedia? Doesn't seem like good historical research to me.

 
I feel like a lot of unfounded criticism is coming from jaded long-timers, who are missing the original high when they just discovered the game, and no DLC after that is able to fill the void.
Not the case at all. I was for excited every dlc except till Cradle of Civil and then again became hyped for Emperor after seeing Jakes goodbye post. Im gonna be honest I was hyped for Leviathan too but only for the mechanics it added and not the new tags and missions.
 
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Not the case at all. I was for excited every dlc except till Cradle of Civil and then again became hyped for Emperor after seeing Jakes goodbye post. Im gonna be honest I was hyped for Leviathan too but only for the mechanics it added and not the new tags and missions.
My enthusiasm was crushed by Golden Century after a few mild expansions, but I considered it as something similar to Sunset Invasion for CK2. I was hyped for Emperor and it's probably the version I played the most with. Then Leviathan's dev diaries kept coming and, as many, I sensed the catastrophe coming and was critical of the ideas put forward.

I keep following EUIV development, as my presence here shows, but I'm mostly uninterested by the next expansion, as I was by Origins, because the devs are pushing in a direction I don't like.
 
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If you and the other devs are unhappy with negative feedback, maybe you should consider your situation. You work for a company which relies on the "sunk cost fallacy" (aka spending good money after bad) to get it's customers to spend up to 1/3 of the game itself for DLC which heavily hints that it will fix issues that have been around since the game's release but never does. You work for a company which uses "sponsored" YouTubers to create heavily edited videos purporting to be live playthroughs (seriously, look at any YouTuber's vid and watch the dates closely) to sell the game. A company that leans hard on unpaid fans to provide tech support and additional content and tries to pass off unintuitive, arbitrary rules and needless complexity as depth and challenge.
There's no problem with the negative feedback, as long as it can be used to improve our work. Another different thing is the unfair feedback. For instance, you say that '[we] will fix issues that have been around since the game's release but never does', which is not true, as some other people in this thread have already pointed out. Right now we have internal 'debt' backlogs that we're reducing with each released update since last year, along with the new content.
Whoa. Then I'm sorry, my bad for not giving them a proper credit. (I actually suspect that most of those 3k bugs were found in pre-release iterations where it's mostly known where to look for bugs, but it's still a solid number). Perhaps they enjoy the game too much and don't pay attention when some things are off if they don't ruin gameplay completely :)
Son, you ARE the QA (spoken like the gears of war line) lol.

But no, even historically QA testing/ID of bugs wasn't the issue in EU 4. There were times where the line "we are the QA" could have been considered a lot more true than it is now. There was never a dearth of bugs identified. The issue in EU 4's patch history was always that long-confirmed bugs simply weren't fixed. You can't fix already ID'd bugs with more testers or more gameplay knowledge. You need someone who can actually program the game to go in and fix the enormous quantity of problems already identified, and to allocate resources so that someone is able to do it.

Prior to 2020, that was happening a lot less than it is now, and the backlog was pretty immense. Tinto more or less had to not only try to keep up with issues introduced by new stuff, but also fix remaining issue from new stuff from the past 6+ years. I know this, because bugs I'd known about for longer that which always annoyed me went away. Which means they reached that far back, but also addressed other known issues introduced in that 2016-2020 window too.

It's a massive improvement and while I have my criticisms of some design choices (nobody will get a game 100% to preference that still sells) and UI elements (somewhat more low-hanging fruit), IMO Tinto should be commended for both overall direction choice and making up for lost time wrt cleaning up the game. Previous devs have talked about catching up on tech debt, but in the past two years we've actually *observed* it happening.

To me, a meme Gotland tree is a small tradeoff for that, assuming we don't go into HOI territory.
Thanks for the kind comments giving credit to our bug-fixing work, it's really appreciated. As said by my colleague, we already fix hundreds of issues before each release, but those aren't commented out of the team, for obvious reasons. And even if we do our best for catching all the issues before a release, there will always be issues slipping into them, as it's nearly impossible to deliver a bug-free version.
And yet you're (team, not necessarily you individually) still releasing patches with blatant, easily corrected, bugs in newly added content such as the +100% instead of 1% in the horde ideas so something is clearly broken. Either QA is not being organized properly to ensure all new content is properly reviewed along with more general gameplay testing or said reviews are incompetent or the issues they raise aren't being addressed in a timely manner. Whichever area is the problem is irrelevant to the consumers, all we see is one broken release after another...
And, again, it's not fair saying things like 'one broken release after another'; 1.32 and 1.33 updates have been much more stable than the disaster 1.31 was, and we're aiming for an even smoother 1.34 release, and we're making preparations with that objective in mind.
It would get really interesting if AI was smart enough to actually follow these mission trees without external help. If results for the world's picture were horrible enough, developers would consider making missions more balanced :)
There will be some words about this in tomorrow's DD. ;)
Having a Ph.D. in history, are you aware that the text for the new Danzig Confederation was lifted entirely from Wikipedia? Doesn't seem like good historical research to me.

First and foremost, I consider Wikipedia as a really interesting source, as depending on the article, it will have references and links to other sources, so it can be checked the actual accuracy of what is told on it.

That said, this may be an overlook on our behalf, as paraphrasing is something that can be taken into consideration, but copy-pasting not; sometimes we are a bit pressed by time constraints to finish some of the content to be tested, etc., and we forget to double-check properly what we've written.
 
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Playing as OPM Gotland or an OPM with no missions is not even the same game anymore. Free money, free allies, changing governments for free, personal unions for free, multiple permanent modifiers, unlocking mechanics...

Missions are becoming so important that its less about choosing a nation and playing with unified game rules and more about reading nations mission trees in advance on EU 4 wiki and maneuvering trough them.

Like, I'm all for missions, but I thought it was wildly too much when you could just get claims for free as Russia. Now having a good (new and stuffed) mission tree for a country is more important than anything else.
While you have reason in what you say about the game being more and more about mission trees - and easy to develop way to deliver new DLCs - lets state here you are not forced to follow the paths they present, so in the end you continue to be free to forge your own path, independently of what the mission trees offer.

This being said, vanilla EU4 gameplay has always been a walk in the park to manage one's own possessions - thus deviating the player's attention to singlely paint the map. which is its real final objective, which, as far as I am concerned, it is a pitty. Fortunately a moddable pitty...
 
1.32 and 1.33 updates have been much more stable than the disaster 1.31 was
Yet they introduced a few issues which were not present in previous versions.
  • In 1.33 AI's behavior at wars became more passive, in particular it's now especially reluctant to make naval invasions (even when AI country declares war on island country, it's really afraid to invade it despite war score is ticking down). More examples on forum and in bug reports.
  • In 1.32 there was a controversial change that made AI remove forts too aggressively. In 1.33 it was reconsidered, and now AI is eagerly building forts everywhere, even in poorest arctic OPMs where it makes little sense and takes out the only available building slot. See discussion here.
That's not to say that making bugs is a kind of crime - of course not, it's not possible to move forward without making mistakes. However, 1.33 was specifically announced as a bug fix release, yet it managed to introduce regressions, and they were not fixed in follow-up 1.33.x patches. Next 1.34 release is adding more stuff so it has all rights to have some bugs - but players have no option to stay at 1.33 in case of 1.34 has issues, because "stable" 1.33 has important issues of its own.

and we're aiming for an even smoother 1.34 release, and we're making preparations with that objective in mind.
I wish you good luck, but it's unreasonable to expect release that adds new content and makes significant changes to the game to be smoother than release which was specifically planned as a bug-fix release. As I said, it's not possible to move forward without bugs, but it would also be great to make proper "stops" to stabilize things sometimes.

And even if we do our best for catching all the issues before a release, there will always be issues slipping into them, as it's nearly impossible to deliver a bug-free version.
I don't think anyone here is asking for bug-free version. But IMO if released versions are so full of easily noticeable issues that you can play a bingo, then something is wrong in testing process.

For example, there is a bug that I guess everyone playing EU4 for some time knows about. When you open "Protect Trade" mission of fleet and select trade node, there is a tooltip that pretends to be estimating profit of this action. However, it subtracts money from trade value and therefore is blatantly lying for any trade node where you don't collect. This bug exists for many years, it was definitely be present in 1,29 and probably existed since the beginning of game.
 
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And even if we do our best for catching all the issues before a release, there will always be issues slipping into them, as it's nearly impossible to deliver a bug-free version.
It seems a bit of a strawman to suggest anyone's demanding a 100% bugfree release.
There have been many releases where the community found game-breaking bugs, exploits and imbalances within hours of release, and let's not pretend like there's no ground between that and 'bug-free'..
 
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And, again, it's not fair saying things like 'one broken release after another'; 1.32 and 1.33 updates have been much more stable than the disaster 1.31 was, and we're aiming for an even smoother 1.34 release, and we're making preparations with that objective in mind.

Broken is broken. As was pointed out already by Annulen, those releases, while yes, much better than the steaming pile that was 1.31, still had significant issues that were readily apparent to the players within an hour or two of playing. Sure, that's better than the not more than 5-10 minutes of Leviathan but still far from what would be considered top quality.


I don't think anyone here is asking for bug-free version. But IMO if released versions are so full of easily noticeable issues that you can play a bingo, then something is wrong in testing process.

Exactly. And let's be clear here, I'm not talking about design decisions that players may or may not agree with or non-extreme balance issues but actual bugs where things clearly are not working as intended (or advertised). Also please note this isn't solely directed at Tinto as I've been here on the Paradox forums saying the same thing across different games for years because it has been an ongoing issue across multiple games.
 
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I bought and played EU3 a little while back to just try it. One thing people that still pay EU3 point out that is wrong with EU4 is the focus on non-Europe. EU3 still seems to hit the core region better. I was kind of turned off with EU3 not having the Iberian Wedding or Austria PU missions (although I think Austria's PU option for Bohemia should be harder to get or time stamped for 1500s).

I think EU4 is nearly perfect on European politics and situation. I don't like the Colonization aspect of the game which should be more of a focus since it was a big part of the era.

I have proposed my ideas on how to fix that but it is very mixed on here. For example, I don't like Portugal as a country. It just doesn't handle well with AI. I want Portugal to be a little more historic and go East instead of Caribbean all of the time.

I don't feel like Colonization is meaningful nor do I see fun wars and opportunities in Colonization like you have gotten in other video game series like Empire Total War, Civilization series (scenarios about it), Colonization, etc.
 
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I bought and played EU3 a little while back to just try it. One thing people that still pay EU3 point out that is wrong with EU4 is the focus on non-Europe. EU3 still seems to hit the core region better. I was kind of turned off with EU3 not having the Iberian Wedding or Austria PU missions (although I think Austria's PU option for Bohemia should be harder to get or time stamped for 1500s).

I think EU4 is nearly perfect on European politics and situation. I don't like the Colonization aspect of the game which should be more of a focus since it was a big part of the era.

I have proposed my ideas on how to fix that but it is very mixed on here. For example, I don't like Portugal as a country. It just doesn't handle well with AI. I want Portugal to be a little more historic and go East instead of Caribbean all of the time.

I don't feel like Colonization is meaningful nor do I see fun wars and opportunities in Colonization like you have gotten in other video game series like Empire Total War, Civilization series (scenarios about it), Colonization, etc.
imo the problem with going east is AI is too incompetent to handle artificially strengthened states in SE Asia, they only really expand in those regions through trade companies
 
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@Volbound As long as there are in-game reasons for Portugal to go East, I’m all for it. Portugal proximity to Africa, even the willingness of early rulers to go there comes to mind. Railroad is less interesting, though.

I also don’t like colonization very much. I usually steal colonies very late in my runs. But this is my personal experience. I don’t think it means colonization is bad in itself.
 
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imo the problem with going east is AI is too incompetent to handle artificially strengthened states in SE Asia, they only really expand in those regions through trade companies

Possibly but there are a lot of open areas for Portugal including Indonesia and Africa.

People complained about historical colonization because it wasn't random enough but Portugal does the same shit every game now, they just go to Caribbean and typically settle Hispaniola and the rest then onto Florida and Louisiana. None of that makes sense for Portugal.
 
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they just go to Caribbean and typically settle Hispaniola and the rest then onto Florida and Louisiana. None of that makes sense for Portugal.
From view point of game mechanics it makes perfect sense because they can pull trade from Caribbean and Florida to Sevilla, and Louisiana can be pulled into Caribbean. However, they could very well go to Ivory Coast, Cape, and later Indonesia, and pull trade from there.
 
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@Volbound As long as there are in-game reasons for Portugal to go East, I’m all for it. Portugal proximity to Africa, even the willingness of early rulers to go there comes to mind. Railroad is less interesting, though.
It's not really railroading, Portugal had begun maritime explorations a couple of decades before the start of EU4's timeline.

Exploration along the African coast was the easiest and most logical path to take at the time and thus the Portuguese had begun establishing Feitorias along the african coast way before the Americas were discovered by Europeans. Heck, they had reached as far as Mogadishu and beyond before setting up their first Brazilian settlement.

In-game reasons to go east initially would be: "its just easier", "its more profitable at the moment", "we're basically the only ones really doing it" which should be better modelled in-game but unfortunately aren't.

One other thing the game doesn't represent (anymore) is population size. With what could the portuguese hope to settle the americas? Their population at the time was miniscule and vast patch of land they were granted by Tordesillas was mostly lightly inhabited forest/jungle. The Castillians on the other hand found multiple densely populated, organised/stratified societies which they quickly took over and adapted towards the extraction of gold and silver, thus they had no need for eastern exploration because they had all the money they would ever need right there. Because of this, the potential economic benefits of being the first to find a maritime path to India and establish bases there far outweighed that of settling the americas ASAP in the situation Portugal found itself in.

Why would you as Portugal send tens of thousands to colonize the americas when the same people could be sent to secure the trade routes to Asia? This also contributed towards the policiy of mass importation of african slaves to Brazil once enslavement of local natives to extract wood and work the sugar plantations became unviable. And even for that to happen they first needed to have established bases in Africa. In other words, one could not have happened without the other.
 
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@Volbound As long as there are in-game reasons for Portugal to go East, I’m all for it. Portugal proximity to Africa, even the willingness of early rulers to go there comes to mind. Railroad is less interesting, though.

I also don’t like colonization very much. I usually steal colonies very late in my runs. But this is my personal experience. I don’t think it means colonization is bad in itself.
Why would there ever not be reasons for Portugal to go east? Who says to themselves "Wow we can just go to India directly to get the goods for cheaper lets just sit here and do nothing" nobody does outside of China.
 
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