The Hanseatic League

[unmerged(8881)]

I love your work Mikl, this looks great!

One point: The deflationary events have a stability trigger, I'm worried someone could play by the rules and adjust their sliders judiciously only to have a "Petition for Redress" or some other random event take them out the trigger zone. Are these events designed to trigger over a period or in a very small window of time?

 

[unmerged(16159)]

I love your work Mikl, this looks great!

One point: The deflationary events have a stability trigger, I'm worried someone could play by the rules and adjust their sliders judiciously only to have a "Petition for Redress" or some other random event take them out the trigger zone. Are these events designed to trigger over a period or in a very small window of time?

At the moment I have them triggering at a point in time. But the issue you raise is pertinent, and I will revise that to have the Events trigger over a 5 year period. I also need to check typical Domestic Slider levels, to ensure the slider positions are hard, but achieveable.

 

[Incompetent]

Posted in another thread:

Hansa as they were, do not truly have the same "nation" status as say Burgundy was. it is not even apples to oranges, it is apples to wheelbarrows. The were not truly a state. They were even less a state than Livonian order. There was not one hanseanic culture. even in alternative history mode.

To give you an example of the scope of the mistake. Say 500 years from now someone decides to make a recomputation of today. based on what they understand. So they assign equal values to Liberia, City of New York and all of Chicago Bulls fans. Hansa to Burgundy is what Chicago Bulls (a sports team) fans is to The city of New York.

For example from here about Novgorod and pskov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League

(The reason the Russian cities like Novgorod, Pskov or Tver were listed here as Hanseatic is perhaps the strong presence of Hanseatic merchants in these cities. However, there is no way any German merchants or the Hanseatic League had anything to do with administering these Russian cities.)

So to cut story short.

I love your project. I really do. Hansa is scripted very well, along with TO and Burgundy that i played so far. Yet they were not a culture, or a true military power in the same sense TO were.

Just 2 extra cents

It depends what we mean by culture, which AFAIK is a very vague word in English. Do we mean language? Do we mean traditional costume? Do we mean worldview? Do we mean level of knowledge of the Classics?

I think we've agreed to go with the definition that makes sense game-wise: people are of the same culture if, by and large, they could be comfortably ruled by the same country, and within that country there wouldn't be much distinction between them. Culture in EUII isn't about the nuances of how people held their cutlery, it's about where a province is 'right culture' or 'wrong culture'.

Now onto the Hansa. The simple fact is, EUII is as incapable of modelling the historical Hanseatic League as it is the modern European Union. We have the following problems:

- We can't give the Hansa just control or influence over a city; we have to give them whole provinces under direct control if we want them to be player-controlled. And if we don't make them a country, they won't get any merchants!

- Any 'country' in EU2 needs an army, or it will be crushed.

- The Hansa will span several culture-zones and religions. The two standard options available to us are to say: "Tough, that means they get wrong-culture penalties and horrible stability" or "Great, we give them a ton of cultures so they can rule everywhere." But is either balanced?

There are two ways out of this. One is to pretty much ignore the Hansa, or model them as some feeble alliance (the vanilla approach). The other is to say, what if they got much more powerful than in real life? Aberration takes the latter course - the Hansa in Aberration are SUPPOSED to be ahistorically strong. So:

The merchants don't just have influence in the cities; they've completely taken over. The Hansa is essentially a federation of mercantile city-states.

Over time, the population gets used to the Hanseatic form of government, and the local elite would be horrified if their privileges were taken away from them and their city was swallowed up into some great land-based empire. The result is that the province becomes 'right-culture' for the League, and 'wrong-culture' for anyone else, because the locals wouldn't accept any government apart from membership of the League or full independence. Note that very few provinces will start Hanseatic - the culture will spread over time as the League becomes the 'natural' form of government in an area.

The Hansa have realised that armies and navies can be necessary to stay in business, just as Venice did historically. So the cities have banded together to get armed forces. You could say a standing army is not realistic for most countries, but there's not a lot we can do about that in EUII. Certainly, though, the Hansa will not have the same military bent as the TO, and this will be reflected in fewer generals and less war-friendly DP sliders.

 

[MattyG]

Incompetant,

Very well written.

I have a couple of points to add.

1. Alternative History or Fantasia?

In Aberration the original and incomming designers have striven for something akin to an alternative history of the world (eventually) that is somewhat coherent and believable. There will always be debate about every element as to whether it really was possible and makes sense. Ultimately its a game, and so if you need to think of the Hansa as more Fantasia than Alt History, I am fine with that. However ...

2. History is Full of the Unbelievable

The notion that a set of cities with an early version of a free-trade agreement might coalesce into something closer to a formal state is not so far fetched. Compare that concept to the following: The Principality/Duchy of Muscovy, a two-bit, backward vassal of the Golden Horde gets written up in Aberration as eventually growing to become the largest nation on earth with hundreds of cores and multiple cultures. Sound like bollocks? It happened in the real world. (Yes, I know you know this). Next, this little guy from Corsica makes his way to France during the revolutions and eventually becomes a 6/6/6/2 leader with about 20 other leaders associated with him of high quality. Sound like overkill? Napoleon really existed. (I know you know this too, I'm not trying to be patronising).

The things in Aberration only seem outlandish because they didn't happen, but I think that the Hansa adopting state structures to solidify its security and wealth seem to me far more likely than Russia emerging or Napoleon and his generals coming along.

Still, thanks Tarakan for your thoughts and contributions and I hope you continue to play Aberration and find it a fun and balanced environment.

Regards,

MattyG

 

[unmerged(16159)]

It depends what we mean by culture, which AFAIK is a very vague word in English. Do we mean language? Do we mean traditional costume? Do we mean worldview? Do we mean level of knowledge of the Classics?

I think we've agreed to go with the definition that makes sense game-wise: people are of the same culture if, by and large, they could be comfortably ruled by the same country, and within that country there wouldn't be much distinction between them. Culture in EUII isn't about the nuances of how people held their cutlery, it's about where a province is 'right culture' or 'wrong culture'.

Now onto the Hansa. The simple fact is, EUII is as incapable of modelling the historical Hanseatic League as it is the modern European Union. We have the following problems:

- We can't give the Hansa just control or influence over a city; we have to give them whole provinces under direct control if we want them to be player-controlled. And if we don't make them a country, they won't get any merchants!

- Any 'country' in EU2 needs an army, or it will be crushed.

- The Hansa will span several culture-zones and religions. The two standard options available to us are to say: "Tough, that means they get wrong-culture penalties and horrible stability" or "Great, we give them a ton of cultures so they can rule everywhere." But is either balanced?

There are two ways out of this. One is to pretty much ignore the Hansa, or model them as some feeble alliance (the vanilla approach). The other is to say, what if they got much more powerful than in real life? Aberration takes the latter course - the Hansa in Aberration are SUPPOSED to be ahistorically strong. So:

The merchants don't just have influence in the cities; they've completely taken over. The Hansa is essentially a federation of mercantile city-states.

Over time, the population gets used to the Hanseatic form of government, and the local elite would be horrified if their privileges were taken away from them and their city was swallowed up into some great land-based empire. The result is that the province becomes 'right-culture' for the League, and 'wrong-culture' for anyone else, because the locals wouldn't accept any government apart from membership of the League or full independence. Note that very few provinces will start Hanseatic - the culture will spread over time as the League becomes the 'natural' form of government in an area.

The Hansa have realised that armies and navies can be necessary to stay in business, just as Venice did historically. So the cities have banded together to get armed forces. You could say a standing army is not realistic for most countries, but there's not a lot we can do about that in EUII. Certainly, though, the Hansa will not have the same military bent as the TO, and this will be reflected in fewer generals and less war-friendly DP sliders.

I fully agree with this. The trouble is to convert these assumptions into game play. Currently Hansa have 'german' culture, and when I play it I have realised that Hansa profits more as a non-military trading nation, by dumping everything non-'german', depsite it's hanseatic-ness, due to the 30% penalty for culture difference. Essentially one has to become a "Bavaria" with Hanseatic Events.

I my current rewrite, Hansa get this new culture 'hanseatic' and I have - perhaps wrongly - given them 'baltic' culture as well due to 'historical' reasons.

Suddenly as a player nation they become a "Teutonic Order" instead, capitalising on the large number of 'baltic' provinces (which are 3-4 days travel by horse from the Baltic Sea - but that's another issue...), and not on any trade route I can find in my history books.

So that's wrong too.

Perhaps Hansa should have three main options, which run through the event threads currently proposed, and are chosen reasonably early on.

Hanseatic
They only have this culture, and have a bigger opportunity to convert provinces to their own culture than any other nation, despite what has been written in other Threads about culture. Those provinces are characterised by geographic positions at trade route nodal points, or are significant coastal city-states. We should be reassessing the likely trade routes through Europe and Asian in light of our revised events.

German
If Hansa lose their baltic provinces and Anglia and Firenze etc.., they can choose to add 'german' culture, and eventually lose 'hanseatic' cultue as the traders run off to Brittany or Genoa, and the government forces everyone to eat wurst and fatty cheese. 'Hanseatic' culture would eventually disappear from the game. This is a variation on a good series of events already in the Hansa file.

Baltic
As above, but triggered by significant losses to the more germanic provinces, and perhaps some TO events.

?

 

[unmerged(30761)]

I seriously doubt that germans of any kind would long tolerate a baltic cultured state just to the north, north west and north east of them, i mean they spent all of 1200 - 1250 driving off and enslaving balts and slavs from prussia and north germany. Having them spring back to life in pretty much the same places is not something that would be too welcome. Hanseatic culture could be viewed as baltic-german, which together with high-german and low-german form germany proper. As it stands hansa were merchants in germany, maybe this should be the solution. Grant them a variation on german culture. from this point it would be easy enough to script or work out conversion for both german cultures and for the baltic cultures. Since they would not be too alien to both of these And the conversion should not be easy. It probably should be an event that asks hansa to invest in building better relations with occupied locals. The ammount of money so invested should probably check if any of the neigbours of the territory being converted are in the league already or maybe should check on the date. or i mean not check but say have different sets of scripts that activate and die off at certain dates and the later scripts have same functionaluity but carry a higher pricetag.

Which would i guess encourage hansa's early warlike status to grab for land, yet same scripts could strip london, flandern and such if hansa gets x ammount of say baltic territories. thus realigning them to be more nation nation and not trading conglomerate

 

[unmerged(30761)]

What European Tribes Think About One Another

What European Tribes Think About One Another

http://www.exile.ru/151/materials/europeans-chart.html

This is completely off topic i have a feeling you still might like it

 

[unmerged(16159)]

I seriously doubt that germans of any kind would long tolerate a baltic cultured state just to the north, north west and north east of them, i mean they spent all of 1200 - 1250 driving off and enslaving balts and slavs from prussia and north germany.

But this is what we want, isn't it? At the moment TO and Hansa co-exist peacefully because neither of them share cores on any province. And I am not suggesting that Hansa have 'german' and 'baltic' culture at the same time, but either / or.

Having them spring back to life in pretty much the same places is not something that would be too welcome. Hanseatic culture could be viewed as baltic-german, which together with high-german and low-german form germany proper.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here.

As it stands hansa were merchants in germany, maybe this should be the solution. Grant them a variation on german culture. from this point it would be easy enough to script or work out conversion for both german cultures and for the baltic cultures.

Hansa were merchants from germany AND the baltic sea. They had an influence that stretched from the Mediterranean to the Volga. 'hanseatic' culture is intended to be a city-state culture, rather than a variation of any particular culture.

Since they would not be too alien to both of these And the conversion should not be easy. It probably should be an event that asks hansa to invest in building better relations with occupied locals. The ammount of money so invested should probably check if any of the neigbours of the territory being converted are in the league already or maybe should check on the date. or i mean not check but say have different sets of scripts that activate and die off at certain dates and the later scripts have same functionaluity but carry a higher pricetag.

Which would i guess encourage hansa's early warlike status to grab for land, yet same scripts could strip london, flandern and such if hansa gets x ammount of say baltic territories. thus realigning them to be more nation nation and not trading conglomerate

This is good an worth some time investigating, and certainly takes the theme from the existing Hansa event file. I feel that the Military option should only be ONE of the options open to the Hanseatic player, and that the Free Trader should be another. Others have suggested a Religious thread appear, and a Federated Parliament.

I is possible that the one nation contain too many ideas, and that some of this, and your ideas Tarakan, could be worked into other, more blander files.

 

[Incompetent]

Hanseatic
They only have this culture, and have a bigger opportunity to convert provinces to their own culture than any other nation, despite what has been written in other Threads about culture. Those provinces are characterised by geographic positions at trade route nodal points, or are significant coastal city-states. We should be reassessing the likely trade routes through Europe and Asian in light of our revised events.

German
If Hansa lose their baltic provinces and Anglia and Firenze etc.., they can choose to add 'german' culture, and eventually lose 'hanseatic' cultue as the traders run off to Brittany or Genoa, and the government forces everyone to eat wurst and fatty cheese. 'Hanseatic' culture would eventually disappear from the game. This is a variation on a good series of events already in the Hansa file.

Baltic
As above, but triggered by significant losses to the more germanic provinces, and perhaps some TO events.

I'm still not convinced of this whole Baltic route:

1. In terms of storyline: Going for dominance of the Baltic makes sense in the 15th century, but by the time the Atlantic trade gets going, and at any rate naval technology gets better, land-based trade routes just aren't as valuable any more.

2. In terms of gameplay: However much I might want to give to the TO, the Baltic coast just isn't that rich. Unless you're going to shower the Hansa with refineries, it's not going to earn much for them in-game either.

So the Baltic route is a fairly unrewarding option. This would be OK if it was also the easy option. But:

3. To take over the Baltic coast, the Hansa have to take down the Holy Avalanche, on its own turf, in the snow. This is something like Britain deciding to wrest the Ukraine off Russia. They could pull it off during the TO's civil war, but that only comes in the 1670s.

4. The TO are currently the Hansa's most convenient allies; the Hansa are going to have to find new ones. Kalmar? Too much bad blood there. Finland? Maybe, but they're hardly going to make up for the Hansa's military weakness.

5. If the Hansa succeed, their territory will be a strip of flat, open land which is 12+ provinces long and only 1 province thick, controlled by a country that is a world-beater at planting its merchants everywhere, but is relatively weak militarily. What's more, the line of yellow paint may be all that's stopping some countries from reaching the sea, building up a navy and colonising. I'll let you figure out what might happen in multiplayer.


Don't get me wrong, I think you've got a lot of good ideas. I just can't see this one working out. The Hansa did fine as Baltic traders when they were just a bunch of merchants, but now they're trying to acquire territory at the expense of local powers, they have to take a different approach.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

What I am suggesting to bring into play is a variation of german culture. In real life there are 2 main branches of german culture/language
high and low german, since this is an alternative timeline scenario we could hipothesize that instead of driving off and enslaving baltic and slavic people in 1200-1250 germans simply absorbed them more peacefully. this would make a nice story for creation of more german cultures based on baltic roots. Hanseatic would be those parts of baltic sea where germans merged with balts. Now this would make absorbtion of german and baltic people easier while not giving the cultures outright to the hansa.

Another thing would be TO. They are pretty much in the same plate. TO is where the conquest of Balts and Slavs stopped prety much. So Hansa and TO could have even closer culture relationship say Hanseatic league could have balto-german culture and TO could have germano-baltic culture. Both would eye germans, balts and each other very very closely. And germans woudl also never keep completely ivil with these 2.

 

[Incompetent]

Another thing would be TO. They are pretty much in the same plate. TO is where the conquest of Balts and Slavs stopped prety much. So Hansa and TO could have even closer culture relationship say Hanseatic league could have balto-german culture and TO could have germano-baltic culture. Both would eye germans, balts and each other very very closely. And germans woudl also never keep completely ivil with these 2.

This is an interesting idea (though my storyline for the TO assumes they've had a violent past - a peaceful TO would be a very different game). I could split the current 'baltic' culture into 'balto-german' and 'lithuanian'. The TO would then have an option of spreading their culture into a limited part of Germany proper, or maybe some of Germany could start that way - I don't want to give the TO german culture, as it's too powerful. There are also certain (bad!) scenarios in which the TO could lose either balto-german or lithuanian culture - in fact they probably shouldn't start with lithuanian, though this won't matter too much as many of the Liths will be pagan anyway.

For the Hansa, though, it would only make sense if they took a Baltic route. The Hansa is a naturally cosmopolitan power, so giving them a primary culture which is clearly tied to one ethnic group and then having them assimilate places to that group is going to look strange. The idea of 'hanseatic' culture is that it's a whole collection of different people who share the Hanseatic ideals and support the League above any other country.

 

[MattyG]

Perhaps Hansa should have three main options, which run through the event threads currently proposed, and are chosen reasonably early on.

Hanseatic
They only have this culture, and have a bigger opportunity to convert provinces to their own culture than any other nation, despite what has been written in other Threads about culture. Those provinces are characterised by geographic positions at trade route nodal points, or are significant coastal city-states. We should be reassessing the likely trade routes through Europe and Asian in light of our revised events.

?

mikl,

I think this is the way to go.

The Hansa need to be seen as an exception, or as exceptional. Not only are they the least nation-state of all the nations, their 'culture' needs to be seen as the least cultural of the cultures.

Truth be told, Hansa is not a culture in the strictest EU2 sense of the term (should such a definition be ever agreed upon!) For the Hansa, their self-named culture group is actually an AGREEMENT or set of PRINCIPLES under which these divserse peoples agree to live and work together. Think of it as the worlds first real stab at multicuturalism. A kind of Indonesia, wherein the cultural differences of each group must come second to the welbeing and prosperity of the whole.

In this concept, the Hansa could have the unusual quality of converting province culture. This would not represent real cultural conversion, but the acceptance by that province to adhere to the principals of the Hansa covenant. This would require two additional areas of event scripting.

1. Provinces lost need a replacement culture.

If a Hansa province is lost to another country, it's 'true' culture (re-)emerges. Released from the Hansa, it would become once again German or Baltic or Anglian. (This would not hold true for Hansa colonies or two or three core Hansa provinces.)

2. Age of Revolutions

Starting in the 1740s, there would need to be an event cycle that increased revoltrisk within the Hansa provinces in Europe and their push to join in with European nationalism.

MattyG

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Yep. Mixing with german and baltic culture is just too sticky and too deterministic. But I DO think that an alternative path needs to available to a player who has lost everything, other than taking their ball and going home. I think there has to be the Military/German-Baltic option open, when all else has failed. Refer my previous reply on this thread. I don't mean that Hansa suddenly try to take on the Teuts, but if all they have left is Mecklenberg, Danzig and Novgorod, well its gotta be an option. (Currently the Teuts have a monopoly on baltic culture, however poor it is and this is something which needs examining.)

Truth be told, Hansa is not a culture in the strictest EU2 sense of the term (should such a definition be ever agreed upon!) For the Hansa, their self-named culture group is actually an AGREEMENT or set of PRINCIPLES under which these divserse peoples agree to live and work together. Think of it as the worlds first real stab at multicuturalism. A kind of Indonesia, wherein the cultural differences of each group must come second to the welbeing and prosperity of the whole.

Not sure I agree totally. I don't think a concept keeps a nation together. I prefer to see the 'hanseatic' culture as the first urban city-dwellers, traders, and proto-capitalists. They have less and less in common with the rural peasants and the landowning elite with each passing century. Maybe. Maybe this is what drives the culture-change within the game, the slow awakening of this middle class, desiring self-determination and cafe latte. So when an event fires with the option of giving - say - Anglia 'hanseatic' culture, then it's a reflection of the demographic change within the city, rather than anything principled or altruistic.

In this concept, the Hansa could have the unusual quality of converting province culture. This would not represent real cultural conversion, but the acceptance by that province to adhere to the principals of the Hansa covenant. This would require two additional areas of event scripting.

1. Provinces lost need a replacement culture.

If a Hansa province is lost to another country, it's 'true' culture (re-)emerges. Released from the Hansa, it would become once again German or Baltic or Anglian. (This would not hold true for Hansa colonies or two or three core Hansa provinces.)

Got this, writing it as we speak. As Hansa grow, they gain cores. In the Anlgia example above, after 40 years of ownership and sufficient city size (v.important), 2 generations of people have grown up used to a trading community running them rather than a Prince, their way of thinking slowly changes, and their commitment to Tax and Production becomes 30% more ummm errr ..... committed.

Then suddenly the evil Bretons take out the city, and after another 40 years (20 years?) the population rediscover their anglo roots, and start drinking tea instead of coffee.

2. Age of Revolutions

Starting in the 1740s, there would need to be an event cycle that increased revoltrisk within the Hansa provinces in Europe and their push to join in with European nationalism.

MattyG

Perhaps there is a softer version too, in which the hanseatic 'ideal' becomes compromised, and Hansa goes nationalistic as it stands, becomes introverted to it's germanic borders, and the entire definition of ;hanseatic' culture changes. Catalunya, Firenze, Anglia, Nizhgorod, etc all lose their 'hanseatic' culture, and replace it with 'iberian' 'italian' 'anglo' and 'russian' respectively. As examples. Maybe.

Anyway lov youse all. This is great debate.

 

[MattyG]

Not sure I agree totally. I don't think a concept keeps a nation together. I prefer to see the 'hanseatic' culture as the first urban city-dwellers, traders, and proto-capitalists.

And this is not also a concept?

So when an event fires with the option of giving - say - Anglia 'hanseatic' culture, then it's a reflection of the demographic change within the city, rather than anything principled or altruistic.

I wasn't suggesting principled or altruistic, but the very opposite: they are in it for the money and security that comes from being united and having an army and navy to back it all up.

Perhaps there is a softer version too, in which the hanseatic 'ideal' becomes compromised, and Hansa goes nationalistic as it stands, becomes introverted to it's germanic borders, and the entire definition of ;hanseatic' culture changes. Catalunya, Firenze, Anglia, Nizhgorod, etc all lose their 'hanseatic' culture, and replace it with 'iberian' 'italian' 'anglo' and 'russian' respectively. As examples. Maybe.

Anyway lov youse all. This is great debate.

Sound more and more in this final paragraph like to you are coming across to my suggested concept after all!

 

[unmerged(16159)]

And this is not also a concept?

I wasn't suggesting principled or altruistic, but the very opposite: they are in it for the money and security that comes from being united and having an army and navy to back it all up.

Sound more and more in this final paragraph like to you are coming across to my suggested concept after all!

1. Concept to us, to them just a new way of thinking. Please see my new Reply on the Culture thread.

2. Ummm, yes, then we agree.

3. Your suggested concept? Which one is that? Hansa as a concept has had about 4-5 variations, including the original. Which one is yours?

Mine is the one we end up with, and I get to claim it's the one I first thought of...

 

[MattyG]

Mikl,

Yes, your ideas (see my thread) are excellent and we will adopt them.

Matty

 

[Incompetent]

@ mikl, on the subject of the theocratic revolter:

Have you heard of the Münster Rebellion? There might be some parallels with your Calvinist story.

Also, the hyper-Calvinist state doesn't need to occupy the area of the historical United Provinces - in fact, it might be better if it didn't cover the whole Dutch area, as this would interfere with the whole Bavarian colonisation angle (the option taken by a peaceful Bavaria), as well as the possibility of a (relatively peaceful) Burgundian assimilation of some of the southern Netherlands. Perhaps Holland, Geldre and an area extending southeast towards Hessen would be a good place to have it?

 

[unmerged(16159)]

@ mikl, on the subject of the theocratic revolter:

Have you heard of the Münster Rebellion? There might be some parallels with your Calvinist story.

Also, the hyper-Calvinist state doesn't need to occupy the area of the historical United Provinces - in fact, it might be better if it didn't cover the whole Dutch area, as this would interfere with the whole Bavarian colonisation angle (the option taken by a peaceful Bavaria), as well as the possibility of a (relatively peaceful) Burgundian assimilation of some of the southern Netherlands. Perhaps Holland, Geldre and an area extending southeast towards Hessen would be a good place to have it?

Sure. I had in mind that they would exist so the Hanseatic province of Flanders would have someone to rebel to, for religious reasons. Could it be Flanders/Zeeland/Brabant/Artois? Thus with some french culture provs, it might pick up on a Hugenot rebellion event. Maybe.

 

[Incompetent]

Sure. I had in mind that they would exist so the Hanseatic province of Flanders would have someone to rebel to, for religious reasons. Could it be Flanders/Zeeland/Brabant/Artois? Thus with some french culture provs, it might pick up on a Hugenot rebellion event. Maybe.

Possibly. At the moment that part of the world is Catholic, and in fact it's currently Bavaria's greatest stronghold outside of Bavaria proper. Flanders is one of the most highly sought-after provinces in Europe, with Burgundy and Bavaria eyeing it up from the start, so I don't think you need to worry about the Hansa finding it too easy to hold onto! Is it unreasonable that Flanders could defect to Catholic Bavaria or Burgundy for religious reasons?

Unless things are changing dramatically in France, the Huguenots will be predominately in Occitania, which is nowhere near Artois. But yes, I suppose there could be a few Huguenots up north... Still, if you're talking about an ultra-religious state, even minor differences in belief between the Huguenots and the Dutch/German Calvinists could have made them hate each other.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Possibly. At the moment that part of the world is Catholic, and in fact it's currently Bavaria's greatest stronghold outside of Bavaria proper. Flanders is one of the most highly sought-after provinces in Europe, with Burgundy and Bavaria eyeing it up from the start, so I don't think you need to worry about the Hansa finding it too easy to hold onto! Is it unreasonable that Flanders could defect to Catholic Bavaria or Burgundy for religious reasons?

Unless things are changing dramatically in France, the Huguenots will be predominately in Occitania, which is nowhere near Artois. But yes, I suppose there could be a few Huguenots up north... Still, if you're talking about an ultra-religious state, even minor differences in belief between the Huguenots and the Dutch/German Calvinists could have made them hate each other.

I'll look at all of this. Happy to keep UP devout Calvinists, a firey but short lived nation.