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I think you underestimate the value of its spreed, and its armor values ingame are better than its real armor values. Another benefit -- that it shares with the M10 -- over Sherman 76s is that it has a higher rate of fire.
i mean 4 armor might as well be paper. High speed is nice but something fires while moving speed is not as strong as everyone says it is. M18 has no vet at all ensurng it will almost never hit first shot and will most certainly die if hit by return fire due to no armor. 100 points for a unit that almost never hits the first shot, dies to anything MG fire is fair it doesnt get to hide like AT guns it doesnt get to take more then one hit like AT guns do. Open tops have higher ROFs but also take more damage from planes and artillery due to having no top armor... So again not an advantage just a trade off. Yes hellcat may have slightly more armor then it should have but also Axis has higher AP guns overall and i guess it has its armor for the same reasons the Storch has very good resilance.

Sigh...
Do you even look at the stats of the units you are throwing out? The Marder is only marginally more suited for this task than the PaK40 (slightly more resistant to suppression, same shitty penetration chance).

More importantly though, the Panzer III and Puma cannot even even realistically penetrate at max range (unless you consider 8% [Edit: wait, that's actually only 3%] a good chance), not to mention that they would have to drive through 200m of Hellcat fire before even getting off a shot.

That leaves a grand total of 4 out of 11 Axis divisions that can reliably deal with them in phase A: 16th, 716th, 12th, 21st (If we are generous, we can add the 3rd FS to the mix, so 5 I guess).
Everyone else has to rely on mistakes made by the 4th Armored player.

Again, the division is not overpowered or anything, but it is certainly one of the more potent ones in phase A on the Allies side.
M4 105 is not even a problem Axis also has 1200m support tanks like the Buete Crommwell 95 Wait till phase B 4th cant fight panthers very well.


Steel Division is literally rock papar scissors when it comes to divisions sometimes you will end up fighting a division that you can completely counter sometimes you will fight one that completely counters the division you selected.
 
M4 105 is not even a problem Axis also has 1200m support tanks like the Buete Crommwell 95 Wait till phase B 4th cant fight panthers very well.


Steel Division is literally rock papar scissors when it comes to divisions sometimes you will end up fighting a division that you can completely counter sometimes you will fight one that completely counters the division you selected.
I don't know what you are trying to tell me.
First of all, the Beute Cromwell has only 7 front armor, there are plenty of ways to deal with that, even M1 guns have a higher chance to penetrate that than PaK 40s have against the M4 (they don't have the range for that of course, but my point is that anything better than an M1 will do just fine). I don't know why you keep bringing that up.

And I don't disagree with the notion that some divisions are just terrible against certain other divisions, or that you have to wait until B to beat the 4th into submission, I just don't see how that contradicts my statement that this division is great in phase A...
 
Sigh...
Again, the division is not overpowered or anything, but it is certainly one of the more potent ones in phase A on the Allies side.
I don't play SD much anymore, and I definitely feel like I need to mess around with the 4AD more, but I really, really don't see how the division is supposed to be anywhere remotely near OP. I think the best way to summarize the major part of the 4AD (not the Hellcat) is that it tries to build a division out of the weaker aspects of the US roster. A deck that lives off of Rifles, M4/A1 variants, Greyhounds, etc is not one that will succeed in impressing via single unit capability. These units stand being rather garbage individually by being in decks that build a substantial presence around them. The 2ID makes Rifles work by giving you elite infantry capable of bringing the HE DPS needed at the ranges Rifles have any utility beyond meatshield while the 4AD uses the somewhat uninspiring LMG Rifles and one M4 105, both the 3AD and 2ID make the M4A1 worthwhile by making it a Phase A choice, which both offer a better risk/reward ratio given the reduced importance of a single lone tank being all you have (2ID have a few Shermans and 3AD have the excellent Stuarts) while the 4AD basically has all these useful Phase A tools after their usefulness has vastly dropped (Eugen clearly saw the Stuart would be lackluster in an armor deck in B which is why it's cheaper compared to the 101st's yet the M4A1s still aren't discounted) and relies in A on paper TDs (Hellcats are good due to price, but not particularly outstanding when backed by such a disappointing deck) and a single lone M4 (granted, elite and with cmder status, still miles from the 12th SS Firefly in one trick lethality*).

Say what you will about the Hellcat, but it cannot save how poorly this deck plays at handling many different situations in the game. The rest of the deck is simply too poor for the division to stand on its own. I'd also point out that the 4AD pays for its Hellcat discount by completely sacrificing any semblance of eco in its ATGs similar to some Axis divisions that pay a premium on their ATGs for various reasons but still have the soft AT capability that US divisions drastically lack (SPW 234s, LG 40 and other things of said nature).

Perhaps this deck would have been better if it wasn't a US deck. For one, if you simply replaced the M8s with SPW 234s, Engineers with Pioneers, the useless 155mm with Panzerwerfer (or the laughably equally priced Calliope), the Phase C 76mm ATGs with 17 pnders, etc. then this deck would have been significantly more dangerous to play against.

*I do not believe the Firefly is OP, but drastically changes how you play in ways that an M4 never would. While both are of course hard to kill with Pak 38/6 pnder, the Firefly poses the most direct threat to vehicles while also having a readily available ATG counter in the Cromwell whereas the 4AD spreads this all around in a way that is poorly suited to attacking a centralized location or even directly countering this strategy. The 4AD (dimly) shines in being able to cover wide ground against Axis divisions with weak AT/generally poor/<1000m assets due to the impressive lane rotation time Hellcats have, but so much of this game requires actual commitment to areas which is where the 4AD fails spectacularly IMO.

I don't know what you are trying to tell me.
First of all, the Beute Cromwell has only 7 front armor, there are plenty of ways to deal with that, even M1 guns have a higher chance to penetrate that than PaK 40s have against the M4 (they don't have the range for that of course, but my point is that anything better than an M1 will do just fine). I don't know why you keep bringing that up.

And I don't disagree with the notion that some divisions are just terrible against certain other divisions, or that you have to wait until B to beat the 4th into submission, I just don't see how that contradicts my statement that this division is great in phase A...
I think his point is valid because the Stuh 42 exists and is obviously one of the top tier SP HE meme vehicles (along with the M4A3 and co) and is without contest, the best Phase A option of the category (the only other thing that can hold a candle to it is the significantly more situational AVRE).

I agree that this division has at least a good Phase A. Hellcats are unique and bring an interesting power to this deck that is helped by the other quick options you have (truck infantry, M8s, etc.) but these other things aren't really that good. Nor is said Phase A strong enough to justify how poor the rest of the Phases are.
 
If you are going to design a US armor deck without the Jumbo, and having the weaker m4a1(76)w how would you go about it?
 
Give me 1 card of Chuck Norris. That is all i need
Abram is basically Chuck Norris.

the 4 acc 75mm severely cripple what's suppose to be an Armored deck.

The guns on those sherman should really be up to m4a3 standard.
 
Gotta say I find it funny how the general consensus on the forums seems to be that 4AD isn't that good. Some even saying it's weak, lol. I have not lost a ranked game since I started playing it, although I have had 2 draws (out of at least 20 games; I can count the amount of games when I get home).

Abram is basically Chuck Norris.

the 4 acc 75mm severely cripple what's suppose to be an Armored deck.

The guns on those sherman should really be up to m4a3 standard.

The M4A1s in 4AD are not worth getting, unless you are playing a high resource game. You should rely almost entirely on Hellcats and Stuarts.
 
Why not mention the Panzershreck while you are at it? Slow FlaK 88s and 1000m AFVs are not reliable counters against a M4(105).

Of course... yeah... Two star FlaK 88 is not reliable counter... You should try something out. Move 16th Luftwaffe 88 on hunt, in direction of M4(105) check with one will shoot first. With 88 accuracy and veterancy mostly... 88 wins
 
Sigh...
Do you even look at the stats of the units you are throwing out? The Marder is only marginally more suited for this task than the PaK40 (slightly more resistant to suppression, same shitty penetration chance).

More importantly though, the Panzer III and Puma cannot even even realistically penetrate at max range (unless you consider 8% [Edit: wait, that's actually only 3%] a good chance), not to mention that they would have to drive through 200m of Hellcat fire before even getting off a shot.

That leaves a grand total of 4 out of 11 Axis divisions that can reliably deal with them in phase A: 16th, 716th, 12th, 21st (If we are generous, we can add the 3rd FS to the mix, so 5 I guess).
Everyone else has to rely on mistakes made by the 4th Armored player.

Again, the division is not overpowered or anything, but it is certainly one of the more potent ones in phase A on the Allies side.

Ohh... Now i understand.
You see, in this game you have no hard counter against some units in some divisions in some phases. But you can kill or rout them in many possible ways

And add some divisions please... 17th have Stug IIIF/8, 91st HS129 B3... It gives us at least 7 divisions.
How many allied divisions can reliably deal with Koenigstiger?
 
Of course... yeah... Two star FlaK 88 is not reliable counter... You should try something out. Move 16th Luftwaffe 88 on hunt, in direction of M4(105) check with one will shoot first. With 88 accuracy and veterancy mostly... 88 wins

I have and it works very well against average players. I'm saying it's not a reliable counter because it will not work against players with some skill.
 
I think his point is valid because the Stuh 42 exists and is obviously one of the top tier SP HE meme vehicles (along with the M4A3 and co) and is without contest, the best Phase A option of the category (the only other thing that can hold a candle to it is the significantly more situational AVRE).
I wouldn't know if his point is valid, because I don't see it to begin with. He also never brought up the StuH 42, despite being the obvious comparison to draw for whatever point he was trying to make.
I agree that this division has at least a good Phase A. Hellcats are unique and bring an interesting power to this deck that is helped by the other quick options you have (truck infantry, M8s, etc.) but these other things aren't really that good. Nor is said Phase A strong enough to justify how poor the rest of the Phases are.
I guess that's the part where we disagree. I think B and C are, while not spectacular, good enough to at least hold out long enough to win from the advantage you build up in A. It is weird however that an armored deck has an absolutely pathetic tank section past phase A, though...

Ohh... Now i understand.
You see, in this game you have no hard counter against some units in some divisions in some phases. But you can kill or rout them in many possible ways

And add some divisions please... 17th have Stug IIIF/8, 91st HS129 B3... It gives us at least 7 divisions.
I did completely forget about the 91st, you are right about that. I would disagree about the 17th though, because while its StuG is amazing, you cannot get it into range without getting popped by a Hellcat.

How many allied divisions can reliably deal with Koenigstiger?
None, which is why it's a good unit, despite its high price.
 
Using infantry decks as a justification to nerf an already weak phase b/c armored deck is stupid all but one German armored divisions can counter 4th in phase B and all can counter it in phase C armored decks go after armored decks. Infantry go forest and towns and if 4th goes into a town or forest they will lose to infantry deck so while yes 4th could take out any infantry deck in a field, the maps are not grassy flatlands from total war theres infantry heavy maps there armor heavy maps play the game accordingly to the deck your facing and map your on then you will realise 4th is just a decent division nothing major worth of note once the novelty of having the fastest vehicle in the game and the only ground attack plane that uses .50 cals wears off.

4th could use a buff actually like M4/M4A1s guns need to be brought up to M4A3 75 stats there as no differance in ammo or gun between those 3 tanks the fact that the M4/M4A1 has less AP and ACC is stupid and needs to be fixed there is no historic or authentic reason to have such a desrepency in an already weaker armored tank.
 
4th AD strength is mostly because it avoids the common Armored deck weakness of having little infantry to pepper around the map and can easily get rid of AT guns for the Hellcat to be able to rush around everywhere with impunity with the B26 CAS.

All of those being cheap helps too.
 
I think my only real problem with 4AD is that it absolutely leaves 2e in the dust in terms of the tempo you can get in phase A. It does fade down the stretch. May have too wide a toolbox for phase A.
 
If you are going to design a US armor deck without the Jumbo, and having the weaker m4a1(76)w how would you go about it?
Well, that is a fair question.

I think I would start by saying 4 Acc M4s are a seriously problematic aspect of US armor. While Shermans are threatening in A, their utterly, laughably, incredibly crap accuracy simply makes them a bad joke with low vet and in later Phases (2ID's M4A1s are basically wastes of points 90% of the time). A large part of the US's problems come down to how poor its AT is, and this is one of the larger aspects of that problem. A combination of generally inaccurate tools (that the 3AD shakes off unlike literally every other US div) and no easy front attack AP (is there even anything over 13 AP @ 1200m?) means you have to play ambush with things that suck at ambushing most of the time.

However, considering that, I would design it like this:
Make its staple be that 5 stack Sherman meme squad people always joke about. Granted, this is a highly dangerous thing to do because the capability of AT is drastically different in the low and high end. However, if we want to make a viably scary US armored division without resorting to things like good ATGs or high end mediums like the 3AD, then something else that can be dangerous needs to be considered. A single 5 card pack of extremely discounted Shermans in B would do a lot to make an armored division feel armored by levying those superior numbers to make up for the fact that none of them are going to actually hit anything with their first shots. I'm not sure just how drastically cheaper they should be, but something that makes them much more expendable (80 pts maybe?). If you really want to get fancy, make them Veteran too.
As for the rest of the tank tab, I would give a few cards of elite and veteran Stuarts (no cmders) in A, then the vet M4A1 76mms in B (FYI I think the M4A1 76mm should be 165). For C, give another two (three, four? IDK, the Axis armor divisions have obscene numbers of heavy tanks so it's kind of hard to give a parity) packs of the M4A1 spam except with one step higher vet and some three per pack M4A1 76mms at Elite. I have no clue why Eugen made all the 4AD's 76mm commanders as my knowledge of WWII TOE is limited, but the three per pack in C should not be commander to nerf the div's eco. The C game could also be augmented by a few 5 card M4A1 packs at even further discount (70 pt?) with the same B vet to satisfy the madmen that play TD. Throw in some normal M4A1 commands like the 2ID and 3AD have and that's the tank tab sorted.

Recon should be bog standard 25 pt Recon teams plus Phase A M3 Scouts with more being availible in later Phases as with M8s (preferably with vet because god are the rookies awful). This bit is fairly simple.

Infantry will be similar to the 12th SS in that you get trucks and HTs. I think an interesting flavor for the division might be to give the US some Panzergrens of its own, essentially LMG Rifles with a bazooka, call it Arm. Rifles + or something idk, putting them in B and C at like 4/6 availibility veteran in M3A1s. Phase A infantry should be Arm. Rifles leader (vet, jeep), Rifles (green, truck), and Arm. Rifles (green, M3 HT) with more availibility laden packs for alter phases (no vet increases) with some Engineers thrown in during B too (green, truck). This way you get a pretty bog standard infantry tab with no field punch in A, but still with AT options and trucks similar to the 12th. Then later into the game you get vet LMG equipped infantry but with bazooka tax so they have poorer cost effectiveness than the 3/4AD's. The only stars here would be the commanders and the Panzergren clones.

Support will be interesting. I think the usual 1/2/3 truck cargo works for this build. There should be M20 commands (availible in A) and some vet M8 Scotts in A to mix things up a bit (no 105mm Shermans). Add the throwaway flame squad no one uses and that's about it. Maybe if there is a support tab worthy Sherman variant that isn't a 105 that the US could use, throw that in for B and C as well for kicks.

Anti-tank should be the obligatory bazooka team (in A obviously, vet not required), M1 57mm (in jeeps please, HTs are trash for ATGs), plus some more veteran M1s in B and a single elite M5 76mm in C. Add a single pack of Veteran Wolverines in B (2 cards) with only one pack.

Anti-Air is a pretty standard fair, it doesn't really matter what you do. Might as well blatantly rob the 4AD's for all I care. You're going to have HTs, and that's about it.

To balance the fact that cheap Shermans are going to kind of mug light divisions without Stugs, the division should have no really notable arty in B, but still have the 3AD's M21s and infantry mortars in A. That way you get a division with really weak artillery in the mid-game but strong tank potential. Once C rolls around, they can have some 203mm OPs and Priests.

For air, give the deck P-51s like the 3AD but with vet ramp (2x rookie, 2x vet, 2x elite for A/B/C). Add some Thunderbolt bombers (the 165 pt ones) at veteran with some of the heavy 230 pt ones in C and the obligatory recon plane no ones uses and you have yourself a functional air tab. No rockets because idgaf.

Income will look somewhat like 75/140/125.
Slots would be:
Recon: 5
Infantry: 7
Tank: 7
Support: 4
Anti-Tank: 4
Anti-Air: 4
Artillery: 4
Air: 4
This essentially creates an Allied division specifically designed to be strong in B and have that lack of escalation that allows Axis armor decks to leverage them in C. Of note is the fact that there is no medium tank option in A. I thought about what makes amores decks so unfun to play against as infantry divisions and I concluded that it was HTs, mediums in A, meme SP HE bunkers, and arty a la Panzerwerfer. I took the effort to remove/gimp these aspects of this deck in an attempt to make it infantry div friendly. It's by no means clearly balanced, but can be tweaked to make this an interesting division, because this style isn't in the game yet. Bonus points is it gives Axis players a happy Sherman swarm div to farm, with limited arty making it a lot funner to play against AI using it.
It is something you have to play smart in A with as, while you don't have terrible income, you aren't wowing anyone with that unit comp or pt allotment either. This makes you have to play defensively against infantry divisions with no real way to dance with them besides Scotts and M21s, neither of which are that strong given price and what else you can get (cough, Stuff 42, cough). This division then gets its hey day in B with a larger income allowing you to start pushing out the assets necessary to bring out your Shermans and other gear. However your arty game does not get better until C, and even then, it's nothing special, which means infantry divisions can hold you down with some success (hopefully). Then in C, you ramp down and have to play second fiddle to divisions with stronger AT, but are still not helpless given you have a few good AT options (though inferior to the 3AD's).
There isn't a single thing over 9 AV to be seen, and nothing over 13 AP (except bazooka), but what the division lacks in the raw punch, it makes up for in tactical options with full squads of discount tanks.

Again, this division has no 1200m HE spacers, no heavy tanks, no mediums in A, no rocket arty, no Phase B arty in a Phase B income path, limited HTs, no 17 lber, no AT rockets, no Hellcat, etc.​
 
I wouldn't know if his point is valid, because I don't see it to begin with. He also never brought up the StuH 42, despite being the obvious comparison to draw for whatever point he was trying to make.

I guess that's the part where we disagree. I think B and C are, while not spectacular, good enough to at least hold out long enough to win from the advantage you build up in A. It is weird however that an armored deck has an absolutely pathetic tank section past phase A, though...
He's saying the M4 105 isn't some unique wonder unit. 1200m SP HE has always been an issue, but the M4 105 hardly brings anything new to the table. If it was a M4A3, then sure, it would be some power creep to see it in A, but the M4 isn't as resilient.

For instance, how do you gain a Phase A advantage on Caumont L'Eventé as the 4AD against the 12th SS? Firefly basically hard counter Hellcats and you have one of the worst A ATG line ups as well as only one actual tank. I think you can get good ground covered against the 716th or 352nd, but I fail to see how this manages to work against other armor decks.

Perhaps I don't get this division. It feels like it has a conflict in personality with its key star being the Hellcat but not much else to engage tanks at max range and difficulty countering Stugs or anything else a closer range.
 
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