The importance of I:R to Pdx: Grand Campaign

[Torugu]

Thats the real answer why Imperator:Rome is not included in the Grand Campaign. It's the fanbase.
It would be okay if they say so - they dont.

the problem: no attention brings no fan base

It's a bit more complicated then just "the fanbase is too small".

The current order of games works out very nicely:

1) Crusader Kings 3 is the newest game, and the one that will want to promote the most. Since it's the first game in the sequence it'll be just a normal game of CK3. It's nice and safe (no risk of broken/boring starting position) and they can show of the full suit of features of the expansion.*

2) Next you get EU4. EU4 follows up from CK quite nicely (no time gap) and a lot of the major EU4 powers already exist in CK3 (or can content can be easily rewritten to make them fit). And, if everything goes horribly wrong and you end up with EU4 start that simply doesn't you can just play in the two thirds of the EU4 map that's not in CK3. (In fact, they might want to do that anyways since that's the focus of the new expansion.)

3) Following up is HOI4. The time gap between EU4 and HOI4 is exactly one Vicky3 small, a lot of the CK3 and EU4 great powers are still around, and HOI4 is less reliant on content then most other PDS games anyways. (Just need some big power blocks that can have a world war). So HOI4 should be fine, no matter what happens in EU4.

4) Finally, Stellaris. Stellaris doesn't really follow up from the other games at all. So there is also nothing that can go wrong.


Now imagine if you included Imperator:

1) Imperator completely breaks the CK3 start. No Christianity, no Muslims, no pope, no France, no HRE, possibly no Vikings, quite likely none of the established powers, etc. Instead you would just end up with one large empire that would spend the first four to five hours of the stream gradually disintegrating. You would have an easier time listing the CK3 features that Imperator doesn't break. And remember CK3 is the game PDS wants to promote the most.

2) - 4) EU4 is just as broken as CK3. HOI4 could maybe work, but would be completely removed from reality. Stellaris still doesn't care.


So yeah, while audience size may have something to do with it, it's less "they don't want to market IR" and more "they don't want to ruin the marketing of all their other games for the sake of their least popular franchise".



*In case you haven't used a PDS converter before. converted games end up quite "content starved" because e.g. base EU4 has a lot of content for "France", but none for "Gaul"

 

[maxk94]

*In case you haven't used a PDS converter before. converted games end up quite "content starved" because e.g. base EU4 has a lot of content for "France", but none for "Gaul"

is there any PDS converter from EU4 to HOI4?

 

[IsaacCAT]

It's a bit more complicated then just "the fanbase is too small".

The current order of games works out very nicely:

1) Crusader Kings 3 is the newest game, and the one that will want to promote the most. Since it's the first game in the sequence it'll be just a normal game of CK3. It's nice and safe (no risk of broken/boring starting position) and they can show of the full suit of features of the expansion.*

2) Next you get EU4. EU4 follows up from CK quite nicely (no time gap) and a lot of the major EU4 powers already exist in CK3 (or can content can be easily rewritten to make them fit). And, if everything goes horribly wrong and you end up with EU4 start that simply doesn't you can just play in the two thirds of the EU4 map that's not in CK3. (In fact, they might want to do that anyways since that's the focus of the new expansion.)

3) Following up is HOI4. The time gap between EU4 and HOI4 is exactly one Vicky3 small, a lot of the CK3 and EU4 great powers are still around, and HOI4 is less reliant on content then most other PDS games anyways. (Just need some big power blocks that can have a world war). So HOI4 should be fine, no matter what happens in EU4.

4) Finally, Stellaris. Stellaris doesn't really follow up from the other games at all. So there is also nothing that can go wrong.


Now imagine if you included Imperator:

1) Imperator completely breaks the CK3 start. No Christianity, no Muslims, no pope, no France, no HRE, possibly no Vikings, quite likely none of the established powers, etc. Instead you would just end up with one large empire that would spend the first four to five hours of the stream gradually disintegrating. You would have an easier time listing the CK3 features that Imperator doesn't break. And remember CK3 is the game PDS wants to promote the most.

2) - 4) EU4 is just as broken as CK3. HOI4 could maybe work, but would be completely removed from reality. Stellaris still doesn't care.


So yeah, while audience size may have something to do with it, it's less "they don't want to market IR" and more "they don't want to ruin the marketing of all their other games for the sake of their least popular franchise".



*In case you haven't used a PDS converter before. converted games end up quite "content starved" because e.g. base EU4 has a lot of content for "France", but none for "Gaul"

This is the best answer to the OP. It really makes a lot of sense.

Do you think they are going to use a converted game in the Grand Campaign? If this is the case, this is it.

More reasons to demand an I:R extension for 900 years, where you can transform to a serfdom society of the middle ages.

 

[MachopPower69]

Sure, they're also interrupted between some of the other games, but there's a 900 year gap between the end of Imperator and the start of CK. A gap where an incredible amount of change happened in the world. Until the day we make a Migration Era game, it doesn't make sense to me to try and bridge that gap directly.

A Migration age game would be interesting, but having a thread theorising on how it would work could be interesting. The only nations that are there are the Persians, Chinese Empire, India and Rome. Maybe having a CK-style game where you can play as a tribe or province of Rome and an event would destabilise Rome making war more common? But that type of game would be hard to develop, to the point that companies like Bethesda or EA would need centuries to configure.

 

[Nostalgium]

A weak argument - no one can claim that no profound changes would take place between 1822 and 1936 and after 1949 until Stellaris. It's a matter of will.

I mean, I get it, but the growth of an Empire ascendent, subsequent collapse of the same; a restructuring of the ethnographic image of swathes of the world; the growth, schisms and new schools of a new religion; complete change in the nature of warfare; the rise and decline of another great Empire; the staggeringly vast majority of all religions of Europe, N. Africa and the Middle East going near to extinct in favour of new faiths, etc: I don't think you can will that into the 124 year gap between 1822 and 1936.

 

[EricMN93]

Never in the history of video games has there been someone who dares to represent the transformation from the end of the ancient age to the Middle Ages, there is a game called attila total war but everything was already very established.

What are the minimums that a game would need to represent this era:

1-Migration system.
2-Colonization system.
3-Population system
4- A study without fear of making big changes and transformations.
5-Interesting management of empires (internal political mechanics).
6-Interesting trading system.

I know a paradox game capable of doing what no one dared xdxd.

 

[blackbirdgriffi]

Never in the history of video games has there been someone who dares to represent the transformation from the end of the ancient age to the Middle Ages, there is a game called attila total war but everything was already very established.

What are the minimums that a game would need to represent this era:

1-Migration system.
2-Colonization system.
3-Population system
4- A study without fear of making big changes and transformations.
5-Interesting management of empires (internal political mechanics).
6-Interesting trading system.

I know a paradox game capable of doing what no one dared xdxd.

Check out WTWSMS (when the world stopped making sense) for CKII it's an amazing mod and it'll give you an idea on what is required to make a good game for that era. And that way you don't have to deal with attila total war.

 

[Yuanshu]

1-Migration system.
2-Colonization system.
3-Population system

Hey Imperator Rome already have this maybe in 3.0 we will have the rest? and finally we will be able to enter a new era and win a few more years of campaign. it would be interesting to see the emergence of the new world.

 

[EricMN93]

Check out WTWSMS (when the world stopped making sense) for CKII it's an amazing mod and it'll give you an idea on what is required to make a good game for that era. And that way you don't have to deal with attila total war.

I have not played the mod but looking at the wiki (the mod begins in the year 476) I think the same thing would happen as with the Attila, everything is too established, perhaps the issue of migrations is interesting but I doubt that it represents the transformation of the society that triggered the crisis of the third century, although I do not know, maybe I am wrong and it is an incredible representation.

I don't have the necessary ck2 DLC, so I won't be able to test it.

 

[EricMN93]

Hey Imperator Rome already have this maybe in 3.0 we will have the rest? and finally we will be able to enter a new era and win a few more years of campaign. it would be interesting to see the emergence of the new world.

I think there are several key elements that imperator needs to represent before it can encompass this era:

1-Internal management. Something similar to centralization and / or certain laws and mechanisms to differentiate an imperial civilization from a primitive feudal kingdom.

The idea would be that after a great crisis in a certain year (if certain conditions are met) the governors would stop trusting the central power and would try to create their own internal kingdoms.

2-Improvement in the economy that allows representing different types of trade as well as realistic routes.

Debts should be arranged so that in case of mismanagement or certain elements economic crises are created that force society to make changes.

3-Improvement of religion.

Each religion must have unique mechanics, events, and decisions. The creation of Christianity and its implementation should also be approached little by little

Game that could serve as inspiration to make these changes?
I sincerely believe that the best game to get ideas for this transition period is stellaris. Imperator's late game should be represented as a "crisis" that allows the game to adapt to the new era

 

[blackbirdgriffi]

I have not played the mod but looking at the wiki (the mod begins in the year 476) I think the same thing would happen as with the Attila, everything is too established, perhaps the issue of migrations is interesting but I doubt that it represents the transformation of the society that triggered the crisis of the third century, although I do not know, maybe I am wrong and it is an incredible representation.

I don't have the necessary ck2 DLC, so I won't be able to test it.

It covers those part pretty well, and saying that everything is quite established is quite very very far from what the mod does (the map radically changes just 50 years after game start) but indeed if you don't have the correct DLC it's not worth it as thoe would block most factions you'd find fun (the whole concept of central europe push west due to the huns and their tributaries/vassals) so yeah NVM

EDIT 1 : A good piece of advice for mods is ==> don't go for the wiki, go and check the forum's mod page, the wiki's are most of the time (though not always) out of date, while going and have a look-see at a changelog or a mod presentation page will often give you a better picture (and the forumites posts are usually a good idea on the state of the mod E.G : if there's a post "is the mod dead" hanging in there since 2018 it's usually bad sign )

 

[Wenla]

I don't think you can will that into the 124 year gap between 1822 and 1936.

But...

Doesn't VIC cover (about) this time cap?

 

[EricMN93]

It covers those part pretty well, and saying that everything is quite established is quite very very far from what the mod does (the map radically changes just 50 years after game start) but indeed if you don't have the correct DLC it's not worth it as thoe would block most factions you'd find fun (the whole concept of central europe push west due to the huns and their tributaries/vassals) so yeah NVM

EDIT 1 : A good piece of advice for mods is ==> don't go for the wiki, go and check the forum's mod page, the wiki's are most of the time (though not always) out of date, while going and have a look-see at a changelog or a mod presentation page will often give you a better picture (and the forumites posts are usually a good idea on the state of the mod E.G : if there's a post "is the mod dead" hanging in there since 2018 it's usually bad sign )

Thanks for the information, maybe that mod can provide ideas to improve Imperator.

Attached here an idea that I had a long time ago, the religion part received a lot of criticism for being something with many historical licenses.

Still maybe my suggestion can provide some idea

1st century AD

I hope you are all enjoying a happy holiday season *To make this publication I have taken very good ideas from other people There are many people who have expressed their opinion of new dates, an idea that I would love to see, although I am...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Nostalgium]

But...

Doesn't VIC cover (about) this time cap?

Sure, but Vic is old, so I get that not being in. My post was made in reply to the implication that you could just as easily cover the changes between 27BC and 867AD as 1822-1936, which is just absolutely not the case. I don't deny that that century was one of the most singularly critical centuries in human history, but relatively speaking, a lot less changed in those 100 years. The UK started and ended the century as a dominant Empire, Spain's decline continued, but they weren't entirely supplanted by migrating Germans, the major religions still existed more or less in the same state as they had at the century's start, etc. It a much smaller gap to skip and a 1936 start with that setup will be more recognizeable than a CK3 start that just skips 900 years, and probably more interesting to observe.

 

[Decius]

Of course there is a chance that I:R gets abandoned, but otherwise I see some late discussions on this forum as usual business of every paradox game. After a major update the devs need some time until they can show something new.
We were for a long time happy with the DDs about 2.0 and the HOI IV forum raged the whole time, because they got nothing. Now the HOI IV forum shines with the new DDs coming and the rage is now here in the I:R forums. So I guess it's the natural circle of life

 

[Torugu]

coming and the rage is now here in the I:R forums. So I guess it's the natural circle of life

To be fair, it's less "rage" and more "understandable fear born out of the knowledge that given IR's player numbers it is far from guaranteed to see the same 8+ years of support as other PDS games".

Put differently: HOI4 was saying "stop being so slow, you lazy devs", IR is saying "we love you, please don't leave us".

 

[EricMN93]

To be fair, it's less "rage" and more "understandable fear born out of the knowledge that given IR's player numbers it is far from guaranteed to see the same 8+ years of support as other PDS games".

Put differently: HOI4 was saying "stop being so slow, you lazy devs", IR is saying "we love you, please don't leave us".

I have never played March of the eagles or sengoku but I would like to know the opinion of a veteran if you think this could happen in Imperator.

 

[Jiben]

Warning: Rant

Not just this but i feel like people kinda overreact over no imperator news/events.

I think it's unlikely they gave up on the game. They just had a huge update followed by vacations.

Give them some time to work out what they wanna do next before they start doing dev diaries or talking about the future.

Would be fun if i:r streams or something started soon but people seem to take every sign that the game is dead just because we havent gotten dd's in a few weeks.

 

[Nostalgium]

Warning: Rant

That is hands down the smallest, most modest post I have seen prefaced by a rant warning on this forum.

 

[Poliut]

Ah yes, the rhetoric mastermind who starts every counter-argument with "weak argument", to make sure that his opponent knows that he is wrong. Genius move right there.

Between the end of Imperator and the start of CK3:

• Two gigantic faiths (see Christianity and Islam) have taken place of the old faiths.
• Western Roman Empire has fallen apart and crumbled.
• All of Europe has culturally shifted, after the significant migrations that has happened.
• The Pope has popped up as a religious leader in Rome, for large swathes of Europe.
• HRE through Charlemagne has come into existence.

And these are just off the top of my head. It simply doesn't make sense to jump 900 years into the future, and pretend everything would be the same.

Trust me, if it was something we were working on, I wouldn't talk about it here.

And if we really wanted to have fun with this, there could be the N+1 divergences of alt-history where things like Christianity and Islam never take off (which basically happens if you allow current-release IR to continue into CK's timeframe). As an aside to point 5, CK2 allows Charlemagne to be some footnote to history and the HRE is founded by someone else (though then it leads to the question of how the Karlings - and others! - can come to be in this IR GC timeline...).

The religious aspects, admittedly enough, were things I wondered about regarding the IR-CK save converter, since neither game's timeframes need to address it. And I'm sure the AI will have a fun time with events regarding their respective rises to prominence.

As for the realms... Grand Campaign alt-history can present to you... the Antigonids vs. the Soviets in 1938.