The "Mono Stacking" Problem

[Kitschy]

You mean the stuff like Calamity's SPI? Those are for flavour purposes, not for actual good units.
The game is primarily saturated with thematic stuff for roleplay, this is a recurring thing in AoW 4.

None of these units are actually worth using outside of maybe the T4 ones in very specific scenarios.
But so far we've even found both of those (so Calamity and Prosperity's T4 units) underwhelming.

No not even about those I was talking more about Golden Horde that thing summons T1 army in a T4 tome, Raise Undead Army again predominantly T1 skellies in T5 tome, Awaken the Forest mostly T3s but it still has T2 and T1 there.

In addition about thematic stuff, like imo it should still be reasonably useful and not a space waster. Why are we talking about balance and then all of a sudden argument comes up "oh no those are just thematic stuff and shouldn't be improved", things that need improvement should be improved regardless if they are thematic or not.

This was only for T1 units and primarily constrained to Tome of the Horde (with a side of Mighty Meek).
At the end of the day this did nothing impactful though, unless the unit was too powerful baseline.

A good example here is the Phantasm Warrior before it got changed. It was dominating battles.
And precisely that is the risk you run by re-introducing such benefits with simply a tome or skill investment.

Imagine Battle Seeker Training with Skeletons + Astral Wisps + Mystic Summoning. It'd be a nightmare.
Even units like Honor Blade would be problematic, as they are T1s but actually jk they're almost T2s.

The balance of such things is too delicate and not worth the effort unless you launch a new game imo.

See we basically don't have a disagreement. You think it did nothing impactful and I just want it back 'cause imo it was impactful enough.

My understanding your concern boils down to game having specific low tier units (handful at best) that already have solid foundation and therefore you are reluctant to buff all the other units because of those few. My position nerf the outliers (if the need arises that is) and buff everything else so all of them are relatively good enough. Besides you can clearly see the problem too when you bring up Honor Blade as an example of good T1 unit, yeap I agree and would point out that other T1s should be able to be like it.

Yes balance is delicate, but first of all we already had the thing I am advocating for and balance was ok (I would even say better for low tiers in general) and second the few units that will become OP can get adjusted so no point in going "analysis paralysis" 'cause some things could go wrong when those issues could be fine-tuned.

Why are we derailing a discussion that's about a global problem into this obsession for T1/T2 units?
While it might be a legitimate concern, it isn't related to the issues of mono stacking a unit class.

Reintroducing such things doesn't solve any of the problems that the game is facing as a whole.
At best you make low tiers more powerful but still not optimal. At worst you create a low tier meta.
Remember trait rank stacking and Guild rushing? Yeah. Let's not go back to that gameplay, please.

My suggestions are to aimed at fixing mono stacking across all tiers, with a side benefit of buffing lower tier units.
I'm trying to improve the game from T1 throughout T5 and have outlined previously how this would be beneficial.
The goal is to expand viable strategies, enforce diverse unit compositions and reward clever gameplay choices.

That's why the discussion revolves around global changes rather than micro adjustments per unit tier or type.
The only concession I'll make is that I am targeting Mythic as a class (side-effect), but I see no other option.

It is a bit of derailment, but at the same time it is related because caps will be a serious shakeup for the whole system. The system that low tiers are a part of, so it is better to discuss it now than after the fact.

And I am absolutely for your suggestion of fixing mono stacking, but do not forget that cultural roster is predominantly low tier units plus we still have low tiers in high tier tomes. So they are inherently a substantial part of the system you are trying to fix.
Like for example how Mighty Meek will be integrated in your system? (my understanding it would need to be reworked somehow)

PS
You were kinda doing yourself a disservice with "isn't designed for"/"always has been" (altho there is a funny meme joke there so props for that) part when the same arguments are used against the thing you are suggesting in this thread.
You said it yourself (in this thread btw) "When the baseline gameplay experience suffers, there should be enough reason to investigate and search for a solution to the issue." and with that statement I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Codyksp]

In addition about thematic stuff, like imo it should still be reasonably useful and not a space waster. Why are we talking about balance and then all of a sudden argument comes up "oh no those are just thematic stuff and shouldn't be improved", things that need improvement should be improved regardless if they are thematic or not.

Well. The only way I've been able to improve those is by making them summon T3 or higher units.
Those are all relics from when the game launched, they no longer match the current design.

See we basically don't have a disagreement. You think it did nothing impactful and I just want it back 'cause imo it was impactful enough.

I just think that in a game like this one, with the way all the systems work, you cannot make low tier units be strong late game.

There has to be a reason to build up your cities, get more resources, research new tomes, etc.
Otherwise we might as well just pick a strong T1/T2 culture and build no other units all game long.
We'd ignore everything and just pump research to collect all kinds of buffs for low tier units.

And I am absolutely for your suggestion of fixing mono stacking, but do not forget that cultural roster is predominantly low tier units plus we still have low tiers in high tier tomes. So they are inherently a substantial part of the system you are trying to fix.

They will, at least as a side-effect, get more power than the higher tier units will gain after a cap is applied.

Like for example how Mighty Meek will be integrated in your system? (my understanding it would need to be reworked somehow)

Honestly that entire tome needs to be revisited and I think Mighty Meek might go the way of the Dodo in the next DLC.

You said it yourself (in this thread btw) "When the baseline gameplay experience suffers, there should be enough reason to investigate and search for a solution to the issue." and with that statement I wholeheartedly agree.

The thing is that for me personally, my experience is not suffering because low tier units are invalidated later in the game.
Many other people also accept the vertical scaling, which has existed since the first game. It was never really different.

So, I don't see how that statement can be used regarding low tier units and claiming they need fixing.
This simply something that we can only agree to disagree on. As these are more personalized viewpoints.

 

[Arcantos_the_Storyteller]

Where the army-summon spells ever strong?

I never liked them and never used them. Too random and out of control for my liking.

 

[Kitschy]

I just think that in a game like this one, with the way all the systems work, you cannot make low tier units be strong late game.

There has to be a reason to build up your cities, get more resources, research new tomes, etc.
Otherwise we might as well just pick a strong T1/T2 culture and build no other units all game long.
We'd ignore everything and just pump research to collect all kinds of buffs for low tier units.

Sure, but don't you think Stat Res + damage difference + tying low tiers to heroes/skill point tax (if buffing EHP would be done through hero skills that is) + active skills of high tiers + model count (low tiers lose damage faster 'cause they have more unit models usually), essentially all of that is a reason enough.
And yeah btw that is one more reason why caps are important, it essentially makes a ceiling for everything when it comes to balance this includes low tiers as much as high tiers. So I don't see how it would be possible to collect all kinds of buffs when the cap is in place.

Examples that I already did with Dark Warrior vs Dark Knight, at worst nothing will change there and at best it will give a reason to use DW in some scenario even though they are the same class. Same can be said about Anvil Guard vs Bastion, etc and so on.

Honestly that entire tome needs to be revisited and I think Mighty Meek might go the way of the Dodo in the next DLC.

Dang, if they won't make some sort of replacement for it and just remove it then it would be kinda bad.

The thing is that for me personally, my experience is not suffering because low tier units are invalidated later in the game.
Many other people also accept the vertical scaling, which has existed since the first game. It was never really different.

So, I don't see how that statement can be used regarding low tier units and claiming they need fixing.
This simply something that we can only agree to disagree on. As these are more personalized viewpoints.

Fair enough man.
My position - low/high tier balance was best in PF, AoW4 is messy in this regard but imo it can be (and should be) improved without substantial amount of work (impossible to do it to the same degree as PF but still) and then there is everything else.

Where the army-summon spells ever strong?

I never liked them and never used them. Too random and out of control for my liking.

Golden Horde is kinda cool as emergency reinforcements, but realistically no they were not.

 

[mystic sphinx]

Where the army-summon spells ever strong?

I never liked them and never used them. Too random and out of control for my liking.

They've not been worth researching or casting since 1.0. They're mechanically invisible.