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All of those have existing buffs atm to help push them to happen. Burgundian inheritance is needed for how sudden a change it was
Consistency of standards please.

For the most part, I agree. I will say that playing this game with a system that makes the formation of Spain exceedingly rare would be kind of weird, though.

Probably, but if that's so then the better approach would be to rework the model so that it's likely to happen organically. People aren't complaining in this thread because Ottomans declare war on Crimea and take 100% until Crimea is a vassal or fully annexed in war. People are complaining because the Ottomans can get a free diplo subject even in situations where doing that is otherwise impossible per EU 4's rules, and this interaction also drastically alters the AI behavior.
 
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yes obviously it's ideal if EU4 organically allows all historical outcomes, as well as ahistorical outcomes within the boundaries of realism. however, that is not the game we are playing, and it never will be because of how old it is at this point

I think the focus should be to remove event chains like this one that result in undesired behavior from the AI and aren't even historical in the first place
 
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Consistency of standards please.



Probably, but if that's so then the better approach would be to rework the model so that it's likely to happen organically. People aren't complaining in this thread because Ottomans declare war on Crimea and take 100% until Crimea is a vassal or fully annexed in war. People are complaining because the Ottomans can get a free diplo subject even in situations where doing that is otherwise impossible per EU 4's rules, and this interaction also drastically alters the AI behavior.
You can't have consistency of standards because they differ so much
No they don't?
"But the Mughal conquest of India massively changes the fate of India"
Mughal mission tree, all central Asians can form mughals, all timurid vassals get missions to help guide forming mughals
"But the Manchurian conquest of China massively changes the fate of East Asia"
Banners, mission tree
"But the conquest of Iran massively changes the fate of the Middle East"
Everything is Shia at game start when historically sunni to buff the qq
"But the conquest of Peru massively changes the fate of South America"
Mission tree
"But the formation of Prussia massively changes the fate of Europe"
Prussia can be put into PU by Brandenburg even as a vassal, and is the only tag that can be formed by a vassal
"But the formation of USA massively changes the fate of North America"
Late game increases to colonial liberty
"But the French conquest of most of Europe massively changes the fate of Europe"
French gets a unique form of the disaster and napoleon, and happens in end date so few see it
"But the Taungu conquest of Burma massively changes the fate of Southeast Asia"
Mission tree
 
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You can't have consistency of standards because they differ so much
No.

If the game is modeling "things that happened in history", consistency of standards for said model is mandatory. If the game does not have internally consistent standards for when historical events happen, the game is not and can't be historical in that regard, period. The game has rules for non-war vassals, for inheritance, and for personal unions.

When your justification for breaking those rules is "this was an important event in history", there is now a burden of rationale to demonstrate what separates one important event or sequence from others. To present an internally consistent reason for breaking this rule that would allow us to anticipate other historical events that merit breaking them. Absent such rationale, it stops being a matter of opinion because the assertion is incoherent.

Establishing rules and then breaking them arbitrarily is bad game design in a broad sense, not just in history-themed titles. But having a history themed title is not a pass to ignore history in the name of history by violating a model's own causal interactions. That's non-sequitur nonsense.

Saying "mission tree" over and over again ignores the principle complaint about BI/Crimean succession, and the arguments already presented to you. Mission trees are kind of junk in their own right because they're tethered to TAGs, but they do not typically break otherwise established rules. Unless you want to point to specific/comparable points in those mission trees to garbage like BI or Dutch revolts.
 
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"But the Mughal conquest of India massively changes the fate of India"
Mughal mission tree, all central Asians can form mughals, all timurid vassals get missions to help guide forming mughals

And Mughals happen maybe 1 every 10 games or so, tops. And even then, they are bugged and in the hands of the AI never really achieve anything.

"But the Manchurian conquest of China massively changes the fate of East Asia"
Banners, mission tree

And how often have you seen Qing happen?

"But the conquest of Iran massively changes the fate of the Middle East"
Everything is Shia at game start when historically sunni to buff the qq

And how often have you seen a strong Persia form? And how many of those times it did happen, it WASN'T formed from Ajam.

"But the formation of Prussia massively changes the fate of Europe"
Prussia can be put into PU by Brandenburg even as a vassal, and is the only tag that can be formed by a vassal

And how often does Prussia happen?

"But the formation of USA massively changes the fate of North America"
Late game increases to colonial liberty

That's tied to the Revolution, not any CN breaking free.

"But the French conquest of most of Europe massively changes the fate of Europe"
French gets a unique form of the disaster and napoleon, and happens in end date so few see it

More like "even what it happens AI France is such a pushover that it doesn't matter". Plus, by 1750 you are either playing a game where you don't really care about France or France already no longer exists in any meaningful way.

"But the Taungu conquest of Burma massively changes the fate of Southeast Asia"
Mission tree

And how often have you seen Taungu expand to a significant degree?
 
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I know little about the mechanics of the BI (having seen it fire for the first time this week). That said it seems it could do with a little more nuance. Perhaps instead of France simply having to choose to fight the Succession War it gets the option to settle for the historically French territories gained following the conflict.

If France (as player or AI) chooses to settle and Austria (or the holder of the Burgundy PU) does not want to settle, then that PU holder does NOT get to call in allies. This would likely have to flip the war goals a bit with France being ceded French Burgundy and the Picardy and Burgundy and its overlord going to war for those territories.

It’s not ideal because the conflict obviously happened, but it could be a way for France to not be crushed in an early war.
 
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I don't have a strong opinion on Crimea but holy shit y'all not seeing BI?

I've seen Austria inherit Burgundy in my last 5 campaigns in a row...
 
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I know little about the mechanics of the BI (having seen it fire for the first time this week). That said it seems it could do with a little more nuance. Perhaps instead of France simply having to choose to fight the Succession War it gets the option to settle for the historically French territories gained following the conflict.

If France (as player or AI) chooses to settle and Austria (or the holder of the Burgundy PU) does not want to settle, then that PU holder does NOT get to call in allies. This would likely have to flip the war goals a bit with France being ceded French Burgundy and the Picardy and Burgundy and its overlord going to war for those territories.

It’s not ideal because the conflict obviously happened, but it could be a way for France to not be crushed in an early war.
This is basically what I've been arguing for the whole time.

If Austria gets the Burgundian Inheritance, which is what happens most often if it fires, then either Austria cedes (at the very least) Western Burgundy to France otherwise it is considered an offensive war on the part of Austria.

What happens now is that Austria gets it, France autodeclares and as I highlighted here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-crimea-event-has-to-go.1463649/post-27397886 you get a ridiculously one-sided destruction of France when in reality France just annexed that land.

If I am honest with you, I wouldn't be totally against it being a 1v1 war like it was in history. Given how OP the HRE mechanics are, Austria would have a decent chance.
 
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I don't have a strong opinion on Crimea but holy shit y'all not seeing BI?

I've seen Austria inherit Burgundy in my last 5 campaigns in a row...
Charles will always get an heir because the game throws the "A newborn daughter" or "A child in the reeds" type events at them all the time, regardless of the -90% chance to get an heir.

You have to hope that he picks "the" Marie before they take one of those events.

But even that's not enough, because Charles doesn't get made into a general anymore (Like he should) I've seen him live to 83 and by then Marie is dead and he's gotten a new heir.

The event is very bugged.
 
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Would be really nice if this event didn't fire EVERY time I have a Muscovy campaign.

Really feels like Paradox don't test some of the things in the game sometimes.
 
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This is why the event is totally broken (FYI I allied Muscovy and gave them land back via reconquest and generally helped them out so Russia would form so I could PU them otherwise we'd have ended up with an Ottoman Siberia):

eu4_1.png
 
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Would be really nice if this event didn't fire EVERY time I have a Muscovy campaign.

Really feels like Paradox don't test some of the things in the game sometimes.
That's just confirmation bias, look at the code for the intended chances
This is why the event is totally broken (FYI I allied Muscovy and gave them land back via reconquest and generally helped them out so Russia would form so I could PU them otherwise we'd have ended up with an Ottoman Siberia):

View attachment 704103
Commonwealth formed but lost yo Hungary? The hell that's rare
 
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That's just confirmation bias, look at the code for the intended chances
It doesn't change the fact that with a 4/4 chance in my last Muscovy campaigns the event has fired and all the work I put in up to that point is just slapped in the face by Paradox including an event that never happened in real life and should never fire.

And I feel more achievement when I don't save-scum, which is why my campaign and the hours I put in go straight into the trash bin.

Before someone tells me to play on and don't be sore because something didn't go my way, I'm fine with the Ottomans annexing Crimea normally, but not when it's done by a totally ahistorical event that never happened. I hate the event whether it fires when I'm Muscovy or when I'm Majapahit.
 
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It doesn't change the fact that with a 4/4 chance in my last Muscovy campaigns the event has fired and all the work I put in up to that point is just slapped in the face by Paradox including an event that never happened in real life and should never fire.

And I feel more achievement when I don't save-scum, which is why my campaign and the hours I put in go straight into the trash bin.

Before someone tells me to play on and don't be sore because something didn't go my way, I'm fine with the Ottomans annexing Crimea normally, but not when it's done by a totally ahistorical event that never happened. I hate the event whether it fires when I'm Muscovy or when I'm Majapahit.
Burgundy going to Austria will frustrate late game pan slavism. If austria can get Hungary for free rather than a civil war vs zapolya's transylvania then Ottomans can get crimea for free
Christian can get pus for free, the Iberian wedding isn't properly integrated into the castilian civil war, crimea is just some free land that isn't even that high dev
 
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Burgundy going to Austria will frustrate late game pan slavism. If austria can get Hungary for free rather than a civil war vs zapolya's transylvania then Ottomans can get crimea for free
Christian can get pus for free, the Iberian wedding isn't properly integrated into the castilian civil war, crimea is just some free land that isn't even that high dev
Again, it's not about the development, it's the fact it severely alters their expansion paths into two Great Powers who are still in the vulnerable, early stage of their formation (PLC/Russia).

The Burgundian Inheritance and Iberian Wedding really happened. The Ottoman Empire never fully annexed Crimea. This is a fact.
 
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Just happened again, 5/5...and Crimea are Orthodox.
When a certain event consistently happens within consecutive runs, it gets annoying, agreed.

In that regard, the frustration is shared, although as mentioned before, not particularly for this event. The author's pain usually comes from a hyper-spain (iberian wedding) devouring north africa and entire italy before everything else; an insanity-wolf mode austria (when able to pu bohemia and hungary) murdering hre while still emperor; a gigantic scandinavia (denmark integrating norway-sweden) going full-viking on russia; or la france révolutionnaire (the revolution... is not working), and spreads it from iberia to britain. Don't let the author start with portugal, also.

Apologies in that regard as not being able to share the exact pain, but still would like to help with the overall discontent due to repeated crazy events.

In this case, the author trusts the OP's sense of humour, for this light-hearted joke:

bh.png


eu4_71.png

Standard great horde-golden horde run; very slow expansion. The player has already the complete control of the run. Muscovy is already dead, needs two more fights to devour. Lithuania is mauled; will let it live until france takes defender of faith in order to beat them together. Will let ottos hang around, for triggering future coalitions as a mid-to-late game challenges.

Crimea is gone right at the start: no crimea, no event, no more otto problems in ruthenia.

Of course, on top of that, golden horde has the BEST map-colour, without any disputes
:D
 
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Again, it's not about the development, it's the fact it severely alters their expansion paths into two Great Powers who are still in the vulnerable, early stage of their formation (PLC/Russia).

The Burgundian Inheritance and Iberian Wedding really happened. The Ottoman Empire never fully annexed Crimea. This is a fact.
BI did happen but burgundy had large amounts of autonomy, whereas eu4 has Mary die and then you can full state them
Iberian wedding happened but it wouldn't be until nueva planta decrees that aragon was abolished and fully integrated into the kingdom
Crimea becomes a march giving some more initial years until it can get diplo annexed, as well as the AI wanting to take advtange of strong duchies and keeping vassals around, rather than start annexing all their subjects if you start any historical start date other than 1444
 
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I think a big part of the problem is that vassalage in EUIV is painfully simplistic, ridiculously powerful and has no basis in history. Which, really, is a fair criticism of EUIV as a whole, but vassalage is an especially egregious example.

What is vassalage meant to represent? A territory being nominally allowed to retain its independence while an overlord takes over foreign affairs, à la the princely states in the British Raj? But how often did that happen in history, and why are they automatically called to war? A feudal relationship between liege and subject, as in the case between France and its various duchies? But after just ten years the vassal can be directly integrated into the realm without complaint, and at any rate we have the "nobles" estate and crownland. A frontier client state like Napoleon set up in Germany and Italy? But we have a client state mechanic, and no evidence that they got cheerfully re-absorbed (quite the opposite, they were set up because absorbing entire other countries is incredibly hard). A suborned trading partner economically controlled by a commercial hegemon? But we already have a “share trade power” mechanic, and trade leagues. A tributary that retains its independence in exchange for protection payments? But we have weird lopsided tributaries for that. A subsidiary inherited possession of a monarch? No, for some reason that’s a substantially different thing called a personal union. A smaller polity in federation with a more powerful one? No, the only way we reflect that is with... I guess alliances.

On top of that, various actual vassal relationships aren’t reflected—where is the Tatar yoke, for instance? The complex relationship between the Commonwealth and its Cossack territories? The long, long efforts of the French king to centralise power in his realm? The minor powers in federation under the Papacy? Nowhere, because the bland, one-size-fits-literally-nobody vassalage mechanic doesn’t reflect anything in history. It's just a weird, flavourless, super-powerful mechanic based on nothing.

In my opinion it’s the single worst mechanic in all of EUIV because it affects everyone in every game regardless of skill level or playstyle, and it’s just so completely senseless.

Vassalage should be redesigned as a combination of estates and Victoria 2’s reform system.

Using a combination of factors—how much bigger than theirs is your army? How are your relations? Do you have high trust? How are your other vassals being treated? Do you have the same religion? Are you the same dynasty? Are there other countries with high relations who might protect them in the event of an outbreak of war between them and you?—you could make reforms (or policy changes, or whatever) in your handling of each vassal in a number of different categories: tax policy, levying (do they contribute nothing, contribute manpower, let you recruit on their territory, contribute just ships, or get forced to join wars?), government, foreign policy (can they declare external wars like a tributary state? Will you protect them if they get attacked?), trade, and so on. Annexation should be the final step in that substantial process, and shouldn’t come (except in extreme cases) without serious resistance. Perhaps each reform could have an administration cost associated that weighs on your governing capacity, and/or below a certain level of administration cost the vassal doesn’t take up a relations slot... Maybe you could force reforms at a cost of potentially seeing armed resistance...

That would allow us to abandon the various kinds of subjects (almost) completely, replaced with a far more flexible and realistic system that could recreate all those relationships and more with the right combination of rights, privileges and demands. It would also enable a far deeper and more realistic level of engagement: instead of a laughably simplistic "liberty desire" and a binary support independence yes/no we could have a rule something like succession wars where, say, a France with relations above +75 with Bar gets a special, no-malus-for-saying-no call to arms when Bar declares a "Revolt" war against Provence demanding a HRE-style "roll back the last reform" in the peace deal. We could even see actual loyalty competitions for feudal vassals, so that Aragon and Castile have to constantly maintain the diplomatic arms race to win over and then placate Navarre.

This would open up a whole new scope of game as well, because it would broaden the "vassal" or "subject" mechanic to embrace a far greater swathe of potential tags. The Crown of Aragon could have its crownlands in the Kingdom of Aragon, vassals with very limited rights and privileges in the Kingdom of Valencia and Principality of Catalonia, and a vassal with very high privileges in Sicily, say. If we were really ambitious the 'nobility' estate could be virtually replaced by a robust subject system. What's more, it would finally enable coherent, engaging civil wars.

To get back to the subject of the thread: yes, the Crimean event as it stands is absurd. As others have noted, though, it's also historical. The problem isn't the event, it's the design of the game. If instead the event made Crimea a "subject" of the Ottomans with absolutely every reform toward freedom except something to do with the Ottomans picking their ruler, we wouldn't have this problem. Ottomans would be able to annex Crimea eventually, after a long and expensive process of manual, bit-by-bit, fighting-every-step-of-the-way integration... Or Crimea might just kind of potter along as a loosely controlled technically-subject, or spin off completely.
 
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