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that is possible, and I'll check it out. it also lacked 4x, although I've praised it's independents as one thing I liked about it.
We've explained before both on these Forums and on Steam why the Empire Mode from Planetfall does not work in a game like Age of Wonders 4. I would recommend looking up and reading those answers if you want to understand.
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If "Culture" wasn't so underdeveloped ... Between affinities (get X points of affinity Y with your Godir) and Culture there could be one, though. At least on first and second look.
Alright. So, for anyone else who did a fruitless search on this forum for "Empire Mode" and came up with no actual dev results on the subject, here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1669000/discussions/0/3954784199558446318/
Just to summarize for people that don't want to go to the Steam forum, the given reason boils down to two points:
1. Empire Mode gave access to content that the player didn't have access to otherwise. Due to the Tome system giving the player most everything, it wouldn't translate.
2. Characters would get overpowered and the game would become easier as you progressed, ruining difficulty.
#1 is half-fair, as it ignores that there are still a number of units that are wildlife-only unless you get a specific wonder. That may be intended to make those particular wonders exciting to find, though. #2 seems oddly defeatist, as I'm unsure why it would be impossible to scale the AI's own strength to compensate for the player's hero levels.
Even ignoring that, I feel like a number of major flaws with the Pantheon system have been ignored and never addressed, despite a lot of complaint on the subject. Why are we not allowed to edit ascended rulers with the unlocks we get from the very same system? Why do we have to rely on rare world events to be able to hire ascended rulers as heroes? Why would we bother to recruit said heroes if they're strictly inferior to standard heroes, due to them not being able to be transformed?
If ascending rulers is mostly just for roleplay, then at least make it good for roleplay. Personally, my favorite part of Empire Mode was being able to see and utilize the same group of core characters game after game, and essentially create a story about them. Why are we not allowed to do that here?
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There can be a lot of posts, so it's pretty easy for even enfranchised players to miss these comments (like I did). Here's a post that explains it for others though who don't want to search: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/a-few-questions.1574829/page-2#post-28836107
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That's what you compared it to ?
)))))Now look at the year each of thouse games was released.
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1. It doesn't have to translate 100% it can be it's own thing.
2. Scale the enemy starting heroes with items, XP and other goodies to balance it up.
3. Ban it in MP.
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Oh man, you totally got me.That's what you compared it to ?
Now look at the year each of thouse games was released.
Number of Players 6 months after release
AoW3: 2,027
Planetfall: 1,469
AoW4: 2,896
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Now comparing to how many copies it sold because aow4 sold the most. So percentage wise it should be smallest player base retain. Also we just had a recent DLC. In january it will be ghost town because the game lacks replayability because it lacks depth and content. It's fun for the first maybe 100h but after that it's done. It's not gonna be HOMM 3 if they don't add stuff to do ingame. More stuff ingame more randomized the maps => different challenge.
Same thing for cultures. Each culture should have 2-3 builds you could go for. They don't they all have 1 build that they share not even each with it's own unique stuff.
Also you posted wrong numbers AOW3 had that number almost 1 year later. And the numbers you show for planetfall are 7 months later. Yeah i'm one of thouse people that check.
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I'm not going to play Move the Goal Posts with you. Your point was that nobody was playing, I offered proof that people are playing.
I agree that AoW3 is a better game, but to call 4 a failure is factually incorrect.
Edit: And while steam data goes back to Nov 2013 for AoW3, the game didn't officially launch until March 31st, 2014. I used that starting date, which is why my data is from Oct 2014.
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Yeah, I consider the difficulty thing to be a weak excuse. I consider fun more important than balance.
But even if balance is still considered to be that important, there's still a perfectly viable way of working around it. Namely, having rival rulers who are also ascended get access to the same bonuses you do.
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Come on man, Empire mod was so phenomenally good that people view Pantheon as unacceptable downgrade. Imo it's a real tragedy that Empire Mod wasn't improved upon for whatever reason it may be.
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Jordi, you made a few posts there:
Dev Diary #4 — Realms and the Pantheon
Hello everyone, I'm Thomas Schuiten, a designer at Triumph Studios. Today in this dev diary I will give you some insight into the many Realms you can explore, and the Magehaven from which you do so. The fourth Age of Wonders brings the return of...
and on Steam (above), and I get that. And I know you have an important role with a critical public. And despite your role as QA and moderator, I have seen you speak with candor. So, I hope we can have a moment of clarity on this.
If we did, you might agree that those posts were anemic, and that the Pantheon system isn’t all it could be. So what I think we all want to know is if Paradox honestly believes that this game is the best version of itself. Was the Pantheon system supposed to be more? Is this version of the game where the title is going?
Because I am telling you straight, I am AOW’s biggest fan, and I am convinced that Paradox was onto something with Empire Mode. And I am telling you that it, and much of AOW4, is worse than before.
The Pantheon is less dynamic than Empire Mode, game mechanics are way more tedious, and difficulty is non-existent if you don’t just tie your own arms with “advantage.”
And the thing is, i think several of these things could be solved with existing systems. For the Pantheon alone, acting as a mod system, could alter difficulty in far more satisfying way. Unless of course, Paradox thinks it’s going the right direction.
So can you tell us that much?
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Keep in mind that we already did this in Planetfall and do this in AoW4 as well. It doesn't really matter how many additional Powers/Cities/Armies we give an AI, the player is always more effective/efficient and will outpace the AI. With the Empire Mode this gap only becomes bigger the more levels and relics the Player gets.
It's important to understand that the Empire Mode has most certainly been improved upon for Age of Wonders 4, just maybe not in ways that most people would have expected. Empire Mode was incredibly restricted with no access to the regular RMG Settings, no ability to use it in Multiplayer and it would quite literally break the engine. One of the most important things for us when it came to translating Empire Mode to Age of Wonders 4 was improving that. We've woven it throughout the entire game, getting XP in Story Realms, RMG and MP, being able to use the traits in Multiplayer, having representation of it throughout the entire experience.
Not sure why you mention Paradox since they have almost nothing to do with the design or development of the game. Is the Pantheon currently in the place we'd like it to be? No, but we're a game that's actively being developed and things will change, be updated and expanded as we go along. Like with every aspect of the game there have been tons of different designs and concepts and ideas on how to approach this. In the end what you can do is limited by time, resources, tech and all the usual jazz.
Just like with the Empire Mode, no single Trait is going to increase the difficulty massively it's the combination of Traits (and settings) that push the difficulty. Presence Traits add rulers with extra Skills & Cities, Terrain Effects can provide challenges navigating the world while other modifiers can further help change up the experience. The experience in regards to picking them is naturally very different which makes it feel like a less Dynamic system but for that I just refer back to the previous paragraph.
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Please assume I mean Triumph when I say Paradox. I think this helped confuse the situation:
Either way, my bad.
Now if I summarized that, it would be, “yeah, it’s not perfect, but you know, things are hard.” Which is fine, I guess, but not really an epiphany moment. I will take one more try on this:
Jordi, I believe you (Triumph) had lightning in a bottle. This system appeared to function like a mod handicap system, but with great returns. With that much potential, I was sure you were going to use this as the differentiating moment, where AOW would leapfrog its 4X competitors, with very clever integration of free code and tools that Steam gives you every day from the Workshop. But it was a complete gameplay dead-end.
And just between us, Empire Mode was some of the most fun times I had in the game. Mine was a killer unhittable Kir’Ko scout swarm build, on a total rampage, until a Promethean AOE insanity turned my scouts on each other, demolishing them in one turn. Still though, priceless moments.
Plus, there are so many levers to work with. And each one ramps up to ‘eleven’:
… just keep ramping it up. I am telling you, things like this feel a lot better than 1.3X * 1.3X “advantage.”
So again, one last time. Is Triumph done with Empire Mode? Is there a commitment to any of these systems? Does Flagship even recognize this? Was it a flash in the pan?
Look, if the game stays this basic, with the game mechanics constantly slowing everything down, I don’t know what to say. Other than maybe ‘I gave it a try.’
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Please assume I mean Flagship when I say Paradox. I think this helped confuse the situation:
It is possible that he may be a staff with Paradox
Just wanted to chip in to, first off, voice my respect and appreciation for Jordi to not only respond once, but also come back later with a fairly honest 2nd response to several community members here. Props!
Other thing this thread has made me think, is wondering if AoW4 wouldn't have been better off without the Pantheon system at launch. As it is, it feels like a compromised version of a potentially far more ambitious system. Now that we have it I'd rather see it improved, then removed. But if it didn't exist in the first place, the game would be equally enjoyable.
In its current form, the pantheon system doesn't add a lot of play value to the casual player and simply feels like a dead system, with two tabs. One to catalogue heroes you're unlikely to see again* and another for unrelated unlocks on cosmetics you can't apply to said heroes now that they've "ascended", or unfortunately elsewhere outside of new matches for that matter **.
If we didn't have it, than we wouldn't miss it. We'd prly still be speculating and wishing we'd get an empire mode-style update from Santa Triumph for Christmas, but now we're all left a bit groggy about a system that is "nearly there", but just not it.
(*I have nearly 200hrs clocked and have never once encountered any of my pantheon heroes or cultures. So as nice as it is to ascend my heroes, it hasn't done anything for me since.
** Also, I'm playing a long game with family over the course of months, in between I'm playing solo games. And I am a bit sad that the cosmetics I've unlocked during my solo play aren't all accessible in my active online games.
So all in all I don't get a lot of value out of the system in it's currently form.)
Other thing this thread has made me think, is wondering if AoW4 wouldn't have been better off without the Pantheon system at launch. As it is, it feels like a compromised version of a potentially far more ambitious system. Now that we have it I'd rather see it improved, then removed. But if it didn't exist in the first place, the game would be equally enjoyable.
In its current form, the pantheon system doesn't add a lot of play value to the casual player and simply feels like a dead system, with two tabs. One to catalogue heroes you're unlikely to see again* and another for unrelated unlocks on cosmetics you can't apply to said heroes now that they've "ascended", or unfortunately elsewhere outside of new matches for that matter **.
If we didn't have it, than we wouldn't miss it. We'd prly still be speculating and wishing we'd get an empire mode-style update from Santa Triumph for Christmas, but now we're all left a bit groggy about a system that is "nearly there", but just not it.
(*I have nearly 200hrs clocked and have never once encountered any of my pantheon heroes or cultures. So as nice as it is to ascend my heroes, it hasn't done anything for me since.
** Also, I'm playing a long game with family over the course of months, in between I'm playing solo games. And I am a bit sad that the cosmetics I've unlocked during my solo play aren't all accessible in my active online games.
So all in all I don't get a lot of value out of the system in it's currently form.)
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Yeah, it was more than I was expecting. He probably can’t say much.
It’s odd though. They truly don’t know what they had. It could have been one of those moments where the genre changes. Well, it felt like that anyways. I guess we’ll never know.
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You seem to have the wrong map-setting active. I was encountering so many of them I actually got sick of seeing them in every game and changed the setting. Anyway, in the advanced map setting, when it comes to AI players you have different options how they will be created. One of those will create opponents randomly and one will basically pick from the ones that are there - including the ascended ones. Go check what you have when you create a map.
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