The Pantheon system we wanted

[STARSDragoon]

You seem to have the wrong map-setting active. I was encountering so many of them I actually got sick of seeing them in every game and changed the setting. Anyway, in the advanced map setting, when it comes to AI players you have different options how they will be created. One of those will create opponents randomly and one will basically pick from the ones that are there - including the ascended ones. Go check what you have when you create a map.

One of the options also can pick custom rulers who havent ascended yet. I noticed that a few months sgo with 2 newly made ones being my opponents.

 

[Bever!]

You seem to have the wrong map-setting active. I was encountering so many of them I actually got sick of seeing them in every game and changed the setting. Anyway, in the advanced map setting, when it comes to AI players you have different options how they will be created. One of those will create opponents randomly and one will basically pick from the ones that are there - including the ascended ones. Go check what you have when you create a map.

Cheers, thanks for pointing that out.

I might have the wrong map settings to get my ascended heroes, but that's not really the case for my preferred play style TBH. (Not to be snarky, but I'm just very particular.)

I've mostly played the story maps and I like customizing my own opponents in custom maps. So as a result, there is probably no space for one of my ascended cultures/heroes to show up in custom games, I guess? I mean, ascended heroes should also show up in the hiring pool of new heroes, right?

That last one has never once happened to me. And as such, in my experience, the pantheon system is as good as non existing. The only part I engage with is unlocking cosmetics, and that has nothing to do with the concept of a pantheon in the first place IMO, so I also don't really consider it part of the pantheon system.

This is why I criticised the system from a casual player's perspective. I'm assuming that players who don't play regularly, will likely also default to playing the story maps first, since it is considered the premium content one plays to check out what the game is all about before getting super into custom maps.

And when it comes to having random cultures show up when setting up your opponent selection to random. What's the difference to having a (custom) culture in the pantheon, and not having them in the pantheon? I mean, by default, any ascended culture already exists outside of the pantheon in the pool of random selectable cultures, doesn't it? (As long as you don't delete the culture that is.)

Or are your own custom cultures bared from the random selection pool? (I've never played with random enemies, so I don't honestly know.)

 

[Kitschy]

It's important to understand that the Empire Mode has most certainly been improved upon for Age of Wonders 4, just maybe not in ways that most people would have expected. Empire Mode was incredibly restricted with no access to the regular RMG Settings, no ability to use it in Multiplayer and it would quite literally break the engine. One of the most important things for us when it came to translating Empire Mode to Age of Wonders 4 was improving that. We've woven it throughout the entire game, getting XP in Story Realms, RMG and MP, being able to use the traits in Multiplayer, having representation of it throughout the entire experience.

Definitely, I would have never guessed that tying-up MP and Empire Mod would be a priority or a goal at all. It is great to hear that a lot of improvements were made under the hood so to speak, but at the same time as you probably understand for the players those aren't only not obvious those are hard to see as improvements 'cause Pantheon as an end result is so drastically different from previous Empire Mod from Planetfall. (that's why threads like this pop-up frequently and probably will continue for the foreseeable future)

Cheers, thanks for pointing that out.

I might have the wrong map settings to get my ascended heroes, but that's not really the case for my preferred play style TBH. (Not to be snarky, but I'm just very particular.)

I've mostly played the story maps and I like customizing my own opponents in custom maps. So as a result, there is probably no space for one of my ascended cultures/heroes to show up in custom games, I guess? I mean, ascended heroes should also show up in the hiring pool of new heroes, right?

That last one has never once happened to me. And as such, in my experience, the pantheon system is as good as non existing. The only part I engage with is unlocking cosmetics, and that has nothing to do with the concept of a pantheon in the first place IMO, so I also don't really consider it part of the pantheon system.

This is why I criticised the system from a casual player's perspective. I'm assuming that players who don't play regularly, will likely also default to playing the story maps first, since it is considered the premium content one plays to check out what the game is all about before getting super into custom maps.

And when it comes to having random cultures show up when setting up your opponent selection to random. What's the difference to having a (custom) culture in the pantheon, and not having them in the pantheon? I mean, by default, any ascended culture already exists outside of the pantheon in the pool of random selectable cultures, doesn't it? (As long as you don't delete the culture that is.)

Or are your own custom cultures bared from the random selection pool? (I've never played with random enemies, so I don't honestly know.)

Jolly need to actually give more details about what he really meant, 'cause I suspect you aren't talking about same things.

In map advance settings under Factions there are two options for rulers:
Custom Rulers or Rulers are generated. When you pick Custom Ruler option game will choose any hero that you created yourself or from library of official heroes. Rulers are generated option means rulers are generated at random.

Now in Pantheon heroes have two states: Hero and Ruler. Hero means Pantheon dudes will only appear as recruitable heroes (from that event "I am impressed with what you are doing in thir realm .. bla bla bla .. recruit me") Ruler means that your Pantheon person can spawn as an AI opponent.

So first if you want your Pantheon heroes spawned as AI opponents you need to give them "Ruler" tag in Pantheon itself and from my understanding map advanced settings doesn't actually matter in this regard.

 

[aerothgow]

Just like with the Empire Mode, no single Trait is going to increase the difficulty massively it's the combination of Traits (and settings) that push the difficulty. Presence Traits add rulers with extra Skills & Cities, Terrain Effects can provide challenges navigating the world while other modifiers can further help change up the experience. The experience in regards to picking them is naturally very different which makes it feel like a less Dynamic system but for that I just refer back to the previous paragraph.

It's your most sold game. It can be your cash cow if you guys just push it a bit. It's so close to beeing a great game it just lacks depth. Pantheon upgrade would sure add to the game.
You also have to look at it from our perspective. People paid 90 euros for this and it's just not a 90 euros game even after all the dlc's and yes it's not cool for me to say that before i see all the DLC. But let's be real here we already know what they bring and they are not bringing much more to the table.

I really was expecting more and I fear after the 2 announced DLC are out the game will be dead. I'm hoping here for a decade of DLC and improvements but i just don't see it especially when you talk to us about resources.....your most sold game of all time.
You could be Stellaris, EU4 or the new Imperator Rome. Until now it really looks like the latter.


Xenonauts looked better at release then this game and that was an indi game from kickstarter from 2014.....
Anyway this is the last game I ever preorder from Triumph. I did it because of the goodwill you built with the community in the past but you have spent that with me. I regret paying 90 euros on a game that's not even at aow3 level.


Over and out.

 

[Blanch Warren]

Nah, I knew I was buying a work in progress, I figured it would take until AOW 5 for another masterpiece. That being said, I like the tech tree, and they'll probably try for at least one more round of DLCs.

 

[Sifer2]

I will say the official responses surprise me since it suggest Triumph actually thinks the current Pantheon system is an improvement or superior to Planetfall's Empire mode. That's a bit hard to believe since in it's current form it's mostly just a glorified game settings unlock menu. The closest thing it currently offers to feeling at all like some sort of meta progression system is the very rare chance one of your ascended leaders will offer to join your game as a hero. And they are not even that useful since they don't retain gear, levels, or transformations. I agree with some other posters here that Triumph had hit upon something potentially 4X genre changing with Planetfall's Empire mode. But seem to have discarded it because they are worried it's hard to balance or that it doesn't work in MP. Neither of those are really good reasons. I do understand they couldn't just port the system over though because of how different technology versus tomes works between the two games. To me that just means the progression should focus on every other thing besides the core research process you do fresh each new game.

I could imagine factions within Magehaven you dedicate conquered worlds to. Obviously Covenant/Shad'Rai. Maybe others. As your reputation increases with a faction they may offer you unique units or items to take with you into new worlds to conquer. Ascended leaders could return to help you if your losing the game with all their levels/transformations, and 5 strong units of their race. Perhaps just for a certain number of turns. You could perhaps get involved in the Archon's war with it effecting what kind of enemies appear out of astral spawners. All kinds of things they could do really but it's going to require them getting over the idea that people only want E-Sports level game balance in their single player games. All of this could easily be disabled for MP.

 

[Tropical Sunset]

Yep, Triumph dropped the ball on this new sort of Empire mode. I am looking forward to play another scenario in Planetfall with my six maxed out heroes instead of that AoW4 mess they want to sell us as improvement.

 

[Blanch Warren]

I still can't believe the fan base has decided this meta shit is the most important component.

 

[Jolly Joker]

As I said, you obviously need something to "identify" a hero or faction with - like it would have been Race and Class mainly in AoW 3. The first thing to identify a hero or faction could be affinity - easy enough. Just set a minimum point value necessary at winning point to qualify as "condition fulfilled", say, well, 15 or something. The second could and should have been Culture, but that one is too bare-bonesy, currently, and would have to be pimped to be more important.

 

[Kitschy]

I will say the official responses surprise me since it suggest Triumph actually thinks the current Pantheon system is an improvement or superior to Planetfall's Empire mode. That's a bit hard to believe since in it's current form it's mostly just a glorified game settings unlock menu. The closest thing it currently offers to feeling at all like some sort of meta progression system is the very rare chance one of your ascended leaders will offer to join your game as a hero. And they are not even that useful since they don't retain gear, levels, or transformations. I agree with some other posters here that Triumph had hit upon something potentially 4X genre changing with Planetfall's Empire mode. But seem to have discarded it because they are worried it's hard to balance or that it doesn't work in MP. Neither of those are really good reasons. I do understand they couldn't just port the system over though because of how different technology versus tomes works between the two games. To me that just means the progression should focus on every other thing besides the core research process you do fresh each new game.

I could imagine factions within Magehaven you dedicate conquered worlds to. Obviously Covenant/Shad'Rai. Maybe others. As your reputation increases with a faction they may offer you unique units or items to take with you into new worlds to conquer. Ascended leaders could return to help you if your losing the game with all their levels/transformations, and 5 strong units of their race. Perhaps just for a certain number of turns. You could perhaps get involved in the Archon's war with it effecting what kind of enemies appear out of astral spawners. All kinds of things they could do really but it's going to require them getting over the idea that people only want E-Sports level game balance in their single player games. All of this could easily be disabled for MP.

The funny thing is Triumph aren't going for E-Sports level game balance, I can say that confidently based on their other responses: like with Hermit Kingdom trait it was pointed out by MP players it would be OP dev response was "we know, it's not balanced for MP" or with mounted trait devs said "we know that balance went out of the window, but people seems to love those mounted units".
So ... yeah, it's weird.

 

[Blanch Warren]

The funny thing is Triumph aren't going for E-Sports level game balance, I can say that confidently based on their other responses: like with Hermit Kingdom trait it was pointed out by MP players it would be OP dev response was "we know, it's not balanced for MP" or with mounted trait devs said "we know that balance went out of the window, but people seems to love those mounted units".
So ... yeah, it's weird.

You don't have to allow them in multiplayer.

 

[Kitschy]

You don't have to allow them in multiplayer.

Yeap, that's what peeps do, but at that point it's not really an E-Sports level game balance any longer.

 

[BeGoodJohnny]

I will say the official responses surprise me since it suggest Triumph actually thinks the current Pantheon system is an improvement or superior to Planetfall's Empire mode.

Could have been a show stopper.

I agree with some other posters here that Triumph had hit upon something potentially 4X genre changing with Planetfall's Empire mode. But seem to have discarded it because they are worried it's hard to balance or that it doesn't work in MP. Neither of those are really good reasons.

That seems to be the consensus. What really kills my is how much fine-tuning you can do with difficulty in a system like this. And still we get comments like:

I still can't believe the fan base has decided this meta shit is the most important component.

It’s like you’re talking a different language.

What’s hard to believe is that they took an excellent endless dungeon and amazing mod system, and threw it in the trash.

Yeap, that's what peeps do, but at that point it's not really an E-Sports level game balance any longer.

And what’s funny is that they could actually make it that effective. You could have the varied buffs reflect a point scale perfectly linked to the effect it gives. You just tie the data to the advantage it gives.

No, the facts are clear. Triumph had a good thing, blew it, and then twisted up the rest of the game in a series of bad mechanics. They would do themselves a great favor by just untying gold from a few things, making research cheaper and more effective, and allowing automation again.

 

[xedat]

Imagine a game with AoW3 mechanics, AoW PF Empire Mode and AoW4 customization? A perfect Age of Wonders.

I really hoped for Empire Mode DLC in AoW4, since Empire Mode was the best thing that ever happened to AoW series. But it seems like it'll never happen =/

Well... let's hope devs learn on their mistakes and make AoW5 better than AoW4.

As for reasons mentioned by Jordi (game becomes too easy & nothing to unlock) - they really sound weird. Why? Because there're already very difficult and unfair for player map traits, just add more of them, lock them behind Empire level and make ONLY THEM give more XP to Empire level, when its level is high. This way player can still play easy scenarios on high level, for example if they want to improve some of newly created heroes, but they won't be able to improve their Empire level this way. Instead, the player will have to beat difficult unfair scenarios with strong enemies in order to increase their Empire level and unlock even more stuff and even more difficult scenarios. Just add new powerful tomes locked behind Empire Mode and give an ability to start with default researched tomes with Empire level. In other words, instead of starting game on turn 1, you'll start with leveled heroes and some research, but the enemy will do too, AND the the enemy will also start with more cities and may be even some other unique effects, like permanent enchantmets that forces the player to adapt and use non-standard strategy, instead of doing the same perfect boring actions every scenario.

Right now the best AoW is Planetfall solely because of Empire Mode. 2nd best AoW is obviously 3 for its mechanics, races and classes. Then, alright, AoW4, and only because of its customization, then we have really beautifully magically aged AoW1 and ugly dark depressed cheaply made mix of 2d and 3d AoW2. Add Empire Mode to AoW4 and it'll be top1 AoW.

As for multiplayer... this is 4X game. 99% of players are singleplayer and then there those few weirdos who waste hours to rush one another, because no one in his right mind will play this game for a whole day non-stop. 4X is just not for multiplayer, sorry. AoW Planetfall could easily be the worst AoW, but Empire Mode saved it and made it the best, lol. It's literally the only reason to play it today, instead of AoW3 or AoW4.

 

[Jolly Joker]

I have to agree witrh xedat, well, with the exception of AoW 2 being bad.

 

[Blanch Warren]

Then, alright, AoW4, and only because of its customization, then we have really beautifully magically aged AoW1 and ugly dark depressed cheaply made mix of 2d and 3d AoW2.

Although I personally appreciate both the style and campaign of AOW1, a majority would disagree with you on juding AOW2 solely by your graphical preference. TWT had an excellent campaign, and SM was a fan favorite for multiplayer.

 

[Orphalesion]

Although I personally appreciate both the style and campaign of AOW1, a majority would disagree with you on juding AOW2 solely by your graphical preference. TWT had an excellent campaign, and SM was a fan favorite for multiplayer.

I disagree here I thought the AoW2 (Wizard's Throne) had a terrible campaign, while the Shadow Magic Campaign was Greta in my opinion.

 

[guiskj]

I'll give my 2 cents as someone who has just played AoW4 in the series.

When I first saw the the pantheon system, I immediately thought "wtf is loot boxes doing in this game?!"

It really came across as some mobile/EA bull****.

I got over it, but the mechanic itself adds no enjoyment to me.

So all I have left from the Pantheon system to enjoy is the ascension aspect, which makes no sense to me as a mechanic for tying multiple "runs" together because it works AGAINST in game lore. A few examples:

• Why is my ascended hero deleveled and with trash items when they do show up?
• Wouldn't my champion hero now be considered a Wizard King after ascension?
• What happened to the factions from the campaign? None of it seems to matter for normal games, which breaks immersion for me. Rulers should be tied to a faction or unaligned, which should impact diplomacy...

This game is awesome, but the Pantheon system is by far its weakest part when it could be such a cool mechanic that sets AoW4 even more apart from other 4Xs.

 

[guiskj]

And just a quick aside, the unlock mechanic really sucks for those of us that have limited available play time. I maybe have 6 hours total a week to play games, for people like me the unlock mechanic feels more like punishment.

Is there a way to unlock everything through a console command or mod?

 

[STARSDragoon]

I'll give my 2 cents as someone who has just played AoW4 in the series.

When I first saw the the pantheon system, I immediately thought "wtf is loot boxes doing in this game?!"

It really came across as some mobile/EA bull****.

I got over it, but the mechanic itself adds no enjoyment to me.

So all I have left from the Pantheon system to enjoy is the ascension aspect, which makes no sense to me as a mechanic for tying multiple "runs" together because it works AGAINST in game lore. A few examples:

• Why is my ascended hero deleveled and with trash items when they do show up?
• Wouldn't my champion hero now be considered a Wizard King after ascension?
• What happened to the factions from the campaign? None of it seems to matter for normal games, which breaks immersion for me. Rulers should be tied to a faction or unaligned, which should impact diplomacy...

This game is awesome, but the Pantheon system is by far its weakest part when it could be such a cool mechanic that sets AoW4 even more apart from other 4Xs.

About the champion vs wizard kings part. It seems to be mostly about how close are they to their original culture. There is no strict, you ascend you are wk now. Looking at ingame events, there are a lot that work with the assumption, that your godirs are ascendet for some time now.

With wks focusing on studying magic and growimg their wizardpowers and champions still being great wizards, but putting more effort into being good with people. It seems to be a smooth transition mostly.