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Hey! Page 100! :D

Kurt_Steiner: If you think that is a long time, just think how long it will take me to get to the Modern Day Scenario mod.

I spent the first several months of the game thinking that the Viet Cong divisions would simply surrender once I captured Rach Gia. Clearly that didn’t happen.

Taylor really did think he could defeat the Viet Cong with just 40,000 soldiers. Clearly that isn’t going to happen either.

Kaiser Chris: Nice movie reference. :cool:

Considering this is the first time I’m playing the scenario, I’m not sure yet whether it will be victory or defeat. The Americans are not in a very good position at the start of the game, meaning I can’t just walk over the enemy. I have to gradually put troops into South Vietnam, not knowing what the enemy is going to do next.

For the first several months of my game, I was wondering why the enemy was being so passive. Then after I captured Rach Gia, the enemy stopped being so passive.

I think the 100,000+ troop level is most likely where I will end up. As for Scoop's emphasis on timetables, it certainly brings to mind the saying about a military plan only being good until it meets the enemy.

There’s actually an in-game event where South Vietnam gets reinforcements from Australia and New Zealand. You’ll see it in the next Vietnam War update.

I’m using Ground Attack to wear down the enemy divisions. As for the Ho Chi Minh trail, you actually can’t do anything to it unless you declare war on Laos...which doesn’t seem like a good idea given her neighbor to the North.

Giant robots operated by cute girls with very noticeable “assets”. Now there’s a research tech for Japan. :D

jeeshadow: Let’s just say the enemy stops sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

SirNolan: It does get you up to the conventions, if that helps.

“Lily white Plain Stater lefty”...I like that description.

Goldwater did vote for the Voting Rights Act of 1963, which I assumed he would have given he had voted for other civil rights bills dealing with the right to vote.

A less extreme Goldwater...you know you’re unpopular when Goldwater looks more attractive than you do.

God, the current Presidential race. :eek:

It is going to get worse in Vietnam. As for Cambodia, her future is very much uncertain. She’s on the American side, but just barely. We might be able to avoid the Kent State incident, though.

Operation Downfall...the result of the Japan AI not surrendering no matter what I did. I actually had to chase the Japanese government down to Hong Kong before I could finally annex Japan and win the war.

Kaiser Chris: We’ll see what happens.

I already ran Prescott Bush as VP in 1960 and he retired from seeking political office in 1963. It is true that Goldwater and the elder Bush were friends, and Bush’s son George ran as a Goldwater Republican in his 1964 bid for the Senate.

As for Nixon, he could be the VP depending on how things turn out.

Unification of Vietnam under Saigon...hmm...that might be easier said than done.
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Republican Hats in the Ring
For Americans, the fourth weekend in November 1963 went by like any other. People went about their business as they would on any autumn weekend. There was weekend shopping to do, especially with Thanksgiving coming up on the Thursday after. There were college football games to catch, the main games that weekend being Harvard-Yale and Princeton-Dartmouth. The following weekend would see the traditional Army-Navy Game in Philadelphia, where CBS would introduce a new broadcasting technique called “Instant Replay”. There were shows to watch on Broadway and movies to see, such as the popular all-star comedy “It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World”. Life proceeded as it normally did, uninterrupted. Nothing shocking happened that weekend that otherwise would have brought life to a screeching halt (like a Presidential assassination for example). That Friday in particular was such a slow news day that on CBS that evening, news anchor Walter Cronkite ran a feature story about the most popular band in England: The Beatles. American television viewers saw footage of a Beatles concert in which the roar of screaming girls in the audience was drowning out the four performing musicians. Girls in England were going into such frenzy over John Paul George and Ringo that a new term was coined to describe it: “Beatlemania”. At the end of the evening news broadcast, Cronkite crisply gave his trademark sign-off:
“That’s the way it is, Friday, November 22nd, 1963. This is Walter Cronkite. Good night.”

(Also that same weekend, a little show you might have heard of made its’ debut in England)
Next November of course would see Americans head to the polls to vote for who should be President for the next four years. The incumbent President’s re-election chances were looking quite dim one year out. A troubled Presidency filled with unpopular decisions made Henry M. Jackson’s prospects in the next campaign the weakest since Herbert Hoover had to face the voters in 1932 at the height of the Great Depression. Just as Hoover didn’t have much of a chance in that election campaign against Franklin D. Roosevelt (“Vote for Roosevelt and make it unanimous” read one telegram to the incumbent), many people thought Jackson would be done after just four years. According to a Gallup Poll, 74% of Americans thought Scoop would lose his re-election bid. A series of trial match-ups conducted by Gallup showed the Democratic President losing to nearly all the major Republican candidates by either single or double digits:
  • New Jersey Governor Malcolm Forbes
  • Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater
  • California Senator Richard Nixon
  • New York Governor Nelson Rockefeller
  • Michigan Governor George Romney
The only Republican candidate who wasn’t beating Scoop in the polls was Rockefeller. As a member of one of the most powerful families in America, Governor of the most populous state in the union, and the second-place finisher at the 1960 Republican National Convention, Rockefeller should have been the front-runner heading into the 1964 primaries. Instead, he was the most unpopular of the five major candidates. Why? The reason had to do with his personal life. In March 1962, Rockefeller divorced his wife Mary, whom he had married in June 1930 and had five children with. That by itself wasn’t the problem; Adlai Stevenson after all had also gotten a divorce and that didn’t stop him from getting elected President in 1952. It’s what happened next that got Rockefeller into deep political trouble. In December 1949, a young woman named Margaretta "Happy" Fitler married a friend of Rockefeller’s named James Slater Murphy. They went on to have four children but divorced in April 1963 for reasons “The New York Times” called “grievous mental anguish.”
Exactly one month later, Happy married Rockefeller with whom she had been having an extramarital affair with. This sudden remarriage didn’t sit well with the public (to put it rather mildly); they thought it was outrageous behavior for a divorced Governor and a woman who had just left her husband and four children to quickly marry. The public backlash from Rockefeller’s controversial second marriage effectively sank his second Presidential campaign before it had even begun. The New York Governor’s standing within his party dropped 20 points overnight as angry supporters deserted him in droves for other candidates. Although Rockefeller would plow ahead in the 1964 primaries undeterred (and with Happy by his side), he would be greatly hindered by the public view that he was – in the words of one disapproving party official – “a wife stealer” who “broke up two homes. Our country doesn’t like those who break up homes.”
Probably the sharpest attack Rockefeller endured in the wake of his remarriage came from a fellow Eastern Establishment Republican: Prescott Bush. The former Governor of Connecticut and the 1960 Republican Vice Presidential nominee (as well as the father of a senatorial candidate down in Texas), Bush was a man who took marriage and family very seriously. Deeply offended by Rockefeller’s seemingly nonchalant conduct, an angry Bush went after him in public despite the fact that they were friends:
“Have we come to the point in our life as a nation where the governor of a great state – one who aspires to the nomination for President of the United States – can desert a good wife, mother of his grown children, divorce her, then persuade a young mother of four youngsters to abandon her husband and their four children and marry the governor?”

(Rockefeller defiantly campaigned in the 1964 primaries with his new wife by his side, which didn’t help him any)
With Rockefeller’s campaign stalled at the starting line, the 1964 GOP primaries essentially became a four-man race between Forbes, Goldwater, Nixon, and Romney. The winner of this battle for the nomination would find a general election climate favoring the Republicans. In addition to the states that were reliable for the Republicans like Maine and Indiana, several states that Jackson carried in 1960 were leaning towards the GOP. One of those states was North Dakota. In 1960, Scoop carried the state with 53% of the popular vote. Now the President was trailing his Republican challengers in the Peace Garden State. Here Romney had the best showing in potential match-up polls, beating Jackson by eleven points. Likewise, the news for the Democratic incumbent was grim in Pennsylvania. In 1960, Scoop won the state with 54% of the popular vote. Heading into 1964, his popularity in the Keystone State had dropped to the point that Forbes was beating him there by twelve points. As one commentator put it:
“Governor Forbes is running stronger in Pennsylvania than Governor [William] Knowland [of California] did in 1960. The President is going to have difficulty defeating him there.”
As Governor of the Garden State, Forbes had established a reputation as being a numbers man. He was constantly obsessed with numbers. How can we get one more New Jerseyan employed? How can we get one more dollar into his wallet? How can we be more efficient at spending the money he does pay for taxes? With Forbes, it wouldn’t be unusual to see him up at two o’clock in the morning crunching numbers in order to figure out how to get them to go the way he wanted them to. He struck some people as being more an accountant than the Governor of New Jersey (the fact that he looked like a stereotypical accountant fed that impression). As bookish as he came across, Forbes had demonstrated to be an effective and competent Governor. Elected in 1957 and soundly re-elected in 1961, Forbes had built a record of lowering taxes, creating jobs, and streamlining the state government. He had balanced cutting spending with ensuring that essential government programs got the funding they needed. The reduction in red tape enabled new businesses to open their doors, generating more jobs. Forbes had even been able to phase out the state income tax, which he viewed as being wholly unnecessary and a drain on peoples’ wallets. He was now running for President on this record, believing that the country “needs to be straightened out as far as her finances are concerned. We have not had a sound economy in a decade. There has been too much money being spent without really studying how it will affect everything. There has been no effort made by those responsible to get the budget balanced the way it needs to be. This is no way to run the government.”

Now in 1964, Forbes wanted to take his numbers obsession to Washington to restore the “fiscal responsibility” which he claimed had been absent since the Dewey Administration. However, he wasn’t the only one who was eager to reverse years of “reckless” liberal governing. Whereas Forbes was the default candidate of the Eastern Establishment, Goldwater was the undisputed choice of the grassroots. Goldwater’s articulate and staunch advocacy of conservatism made him a hero among those looking for an alternative to the stale tired liberalism represented by Jackson. They saw him as the fresh breath of air the country badly needed, someone who would go into the proverbial temple and overturn the table of the status quo. Goldwater didn’t so much decide to run for President as he was drafted into running by a national grassroots movement that wanted to see him go to the White House and bring about a much-needed new way of doing things. The Arizona Senator’s conservative brand proved to be a double-edged sword though; for other Republicans, he was too right-wing for their comfort. Goldwater’s calls to roll back government welfare programs and be even more militant in foreign affairs made him an extremist in the eyes of Republicans who feared that a Goldwater nomination would lead to a repeat of the ideological split the Party suffered during the 1950s. Although polls showed the Arizona Senator with a narrow lead over the President, Republicans were divided over whether a sharp turn to the right would be in the best interest of their political party.

Goldwater’s entry into the Presidential race presented Forbes with a strategic dilemma. On the one hand, the New Jersey Governor did think the Arizona Senator was too conservative to unite the Republican Party. As a member of the Eastern Establishment, Forbes accepted the need for social programs to provide the American people with a safety net. He was particularly troubled by Goldwater’s comments about nuclear weapons. Whereas the New Jersey Governor was open to reaching an agreement with the Soviet Union to mutually reduce the size of their nuclear stockpiles, the Arizona Senator was open about “lobbing [a nuclear weapon] into the men’s room of the Kremlin.”
On the other hand, Goldwater had a national following Forbes dared not alienate in the primaries. When it was suggested to him that he attack Goldwater on the campaign trail as an extremist, Forbes flat-out rejected it:
“I want to win this election. Doing that will guarantee that I will not.”
He very much had 1952 and 1956 on his mind. In both Presidential elections, the Eastern Establishment and the conservative wing refused to support each other. This enabled the Democrats to win both elections. Forbes knew that once he got the nomination, it would be critical for him to unite the Party. Even though 1964 was shaping up to be a Republican year, recent history gave Forbes the fear that they could blow it with one wrong move. If Forbes attacked Goldwater as an extremist, it might benefit him in the short term. However in the long term, doing so might create ill will between him and Goldwater’s supporters, making uniting the GOP for the fall campaign all the more difficult. As Forbes told former President Thomas E. Dewey (who regarded Goldwater as being the reincarnation of his bitter archenemy Robert Taft):
“I need Barry’s voters. I cannot expect them to vote for me if I say their man is a nut job.”
He wouldn’t make Goldwater’s well-known conservatism a campaign issue. Instead, Forbes settled on a strategy of emphasizing his record of balancing the state budget, lowering unemployment, and improving New Jersey’s business climate while painting Goldwater as someone who lacked the executive experience to do all that on the national level. He hoped the strategy would allow him to attack Goldwater without creating headaches for himself after the Republican convention in San Francisco. If Forbes had worries about running against Goldwater in the primaries, he had no such worries about running against Nixon. Indeed, none of the political experts thought Nixon could win the nomination. Although the California Senator had his supporters and had built an image of always looking out for the best interest of the people, he was widely seen as being a long-shot candidate. The underlying problem for the Nixon campaign in 1964 was that Forbes and Goldwater were the established front-runners. He didn’t have an obvious path forward to the nomination like they did and it was hard to see how he could overcome Forbes’ Eastern Establishment support and Goldwater’s grassroots appeal. The best Dick Nixon could hope for was to beat expectations in the primaries and keep his campaign alive long enough to reach the California Primary in June, where he should theoretically have the home state advantage.

(Nixon campaigning in New Hampshire)
Then there was Romney, whose candidacy people had mixed views about. Some didn’t take the Michigan Governor seriously as a potential President. A devout Mormon (a Christian denomination founded by Joseph Smith in 1830), Romney neither drank or smoked. When he announced his candidacy to seek the Republican nomination in Detroit in November 1963, Romney declared that God had sent him a message telling him to run for President. For some, Romney came across as being weird and wasn’t regarded as being part of the mainstream. Other people thought he was the most formidable candidate on the Republican side in 1964. A successful and media-savvy automotive executive before he became Governor of Michigan, Romney was a political moderate who appealed to voters across the political spectrum. He could attract independents, suburbanites, labor union members, blacks, progressives, and conservatives. He had demonstrated an ability to reach across the political aisle and work with Democrats to get things done. To Democratic National Committee Chairman John F. Kennedy, this was one hell of a package. “Romney does that God and country stuff and people buy it,” Kennedy privately remarked. He then added that if he was President and he was running for re-election, “I would not want to run against him.”

Unlike Forbes, the tall and handsome Romney looked like a President. With the Gallup Poll showing Romney leading Forbes in the first-in-the-nation New Hampshire Primary by a margin of 39% to 31%, the New Jersey Governor recognized that he had two major opponents to overcome and that anything could happen as the Republican primaries got underway in March 1964.
 
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Romney! Wow, that's unexpected indeed. And the good Romney at that, or at least the one who deserves more praise and respect IMO. Hope his campaign will be better than his son's. But that's not so hard, considering who we're talking about.:p
 
Hm... President George Romney... Could be much, much worse XD We could have our dear friend Nixon :p. As it seems that Rockefeller is doomed, I guess I will support the person I know will go down in flames! Re-elect Scoop 1964!
 
I wonder whether some one is going to question Romney's eligibility due to his birth's place...

As Vietnam is not a great trouble right now (at least compared with 1968), he sould be safe.
 
Please feel free to use the phrase at your leisure, especially in the AAR. :D

I forgot about George Romney. Damn he looks so much more 'presidential' than his other three opponents; Rockefeller counts as much as Martin O'Malley. Forbes, Goldwater, and Romney would all make interesting choices for president. I was pushing Goldwater, but Forbes really seems interesting and after the Stevenson assassination, we need nerd president to get a full term. Of course since you skipped the first Catholic president, the first Mormon one could be an appropriate deviation. Anybody but Nixon, lets keep him out of the White House, not even as V.P.; its the 60's, shit happens.

Whose on the V.P. short lists by the way.

I'm betting its either Forbes vs Jackson, or Romney vs McGovern (perfect opportunity for the phrase).
 
Darn it Nathan, I was a die hard Goldwater conservative before; now though i'm seriously considering a Forbes Administration. :p

As for those who are against Nixon entering into office in my opinion he was a pretty great president. Under Nixon Vietnam ended, we made peace with China, Apollo 11 happened, schools were desegregated. Had Watergate not happened he would probably be remembered as one of the top 10 greats and would be revered in the Republican Party in the same manner as Reagan. He just made the dumbest political move in history as nothing done in Watergate would have affected his already high chances of re-election.

Personally here are my predictions for the 1964 U.S Presidential Election:
Goldwater V McGovern (Conservative Republican against Liberal Democrat)
Forbes V Jackson V Wallace (Republican vs. Democrat vs. Dixiecrat)

Also for the next update or afterwords could we have a similar post comparing the Democratic Presidential Candidates?
 
Darn it Nathan, I was a die hard Goldwater conservative before; now though i'm seriously considering a Forbes Administration. :p

As for those who are against Nixon entering into office in my opinion he was a pretty great president. Under Nixon Vietnam ended, we made peace with China, Apollo 11 happened, schools were desegregated. Had Watergate not happened he would probably be remembered as one of the top 10 greats and would be revered in the Republican Party in the same manner as Reagan. He just made the dumbest political move in history as nothing done in Watergate would have affected his already high chances of re-election.

Personally here are my predictions for the 1964 U.S Presidential Election:
Goldwater V McGovern (Conservative Republican against Liberal Democrat)
Forbes V Jackson V Wallace (Republican vs. Democrat vs. Dixiecrat)

Also for the next update or afterwords could we have a similar post comparing the Democratic Presidential Candidates?
Same on Forbes.
I agree on the all those policy initiatives, Nixon as President did a lot of good and great things and I follow 'him' on Twitter, I just want to avoid Watergate and the Southern Strategy. Plus since we are going to get a President Bush and had a Johnson VP, I'd rather we have something really divergent.
 
NickFeyR: When I was doing research about potential Republican candidates, I came across Romney. The more I read about him, the more inspired I became to have him run for President in 1964.

jeeshadow: Like Adlai Stevenson said, anyone can become President. That’s just one of the risks we take.

Kurt_Steiner: The answer is “Yes”.

Saying you were “brainwashed” is not exactly a campaign-winning move. Otherwise everyone would be doing it.

SirNolan: What phrase are you referring to?

He really does look “Presidential”...certainly more so than Forbes (who is so hard to get a 1960s photograph for). :eek:

Martin O'Malley...I have already forgotten about him.

Funny thing about Nixon: I have read several alternate histories where keeping Nixon out of the White House seems to be the mandatory thing to do.

I don’t know yet. I still got to figure out who I am putting at the top of the GOP ticket.

Oh, so that’s the phrase!

Kaiser Chris: Sorry about that. :p

It is true Nixon did good things while he was President. The problem with Nixon is that he was his own worse enemy and the country suffered because of it. Peoples’ trust in the President and the Government was never the same after Watergate, which has cast a shadow over every President since Nixon.

Goldwater versus McGovern...that’s possible.

Forbes versus Jackson versus Wallace...that’s possible as well.

We’ll get more information about the Democrats when I do the update about the 1964 Democratic primaries.

SirNolan: Wait...how do you follow a President who has been dead since 1994? o_O

You want something really divergent, huh? How about President John Wayne? Just for you! :D

Ever since I started playing my HOI2 USA game back in 1936 (which now seems like eons ago), I begin each story year with a review of my game. Since the game ends on January 1st, 1964 (which has no impact on the seperate Vietnam game), this update will be the last one to do a game review. That means the two Presidents AARs have covered the entire 1936-1964 time span of HOI2!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
January 1964: The Final New Year Review
On the Drawing Board

  • Christie: Main Battle Tank IV
Arm New Model: M60A3 Patton
Arm: Model ‘M60 Patton’ is now obsolete​
  • Hyman Rickover: Deep Water Nuclear Sub
SSN New Model: Titanium-type
SSN: Model ‘Skipjack-class’ is now obsolete​
  • Boeing: Elite Turbojet Close Air Support
CAS New Model: Vought A-7 Corsair II
CAS: Model ‘McDonnell A-4M Skyhawk’ is now obsolete​
  • NASA: Rendezvous in Space
Research Modifier: +5.0%​
  • Kelly Johnson’s Skunk Works: Fixed Wing Gunship II
CAS New Model: AC-130A Specter
CAS: Model ‘AC-47 Spooky’ is now obsolete​
State of American Technology










Production Status

The Final Score

Highlights of the Year
  • In New York City, the public gets their first look at plans for the World Trade Center. According to the plans, a pair of grey tube-frame 110-story skyscrapers – designed by architect Minoru Yamasaki – will rise up over Lower Manhattan and become the tallest buildings in the world.
  • The British Invasion begins when The Beatles arrive in the United States for their first tour of the country. The tremendous reception they receive in America – for example, 73 million television viewers tuned in to watch their first performance on “The Ed Sullivan Show” – prompts other British bands like The Rolling Stones and The Animals to cross the Atlantic as well.
  • On Good Friday, the United States experiences the most powerful earthquake in her history. A magnitude 9.2 mega-thrust earthquake rocks Alaska for four minutes and thirty-eight seconds, causing $311 million in damages and killing 139 people.
  • The 1964 New York World’s Fair is held in Flushing Meadows. Spread out over 650 acres across from the brand-new Shea Stadium, 52 million visitors would see such highlights as one of the first public demonstrations of computer technology and the first Ford Mustang pony car (a sports car-like coupe with a long hood and a short rear deck).
  • Walt Disney releases the musical fantasy film “Mary Poppins”. Based on a series of children’s books by P.L. Travers, the film stars Julie Andrews as a magical English nanny who helps a dysfunctional family overcome their problems in 1910 London. “Mary Poppins” would gross over $30 million at the box office, giving Disney enough money to purchase land in Bay Lake, Florida that would become the site of Walt Disney World.
  • The third period of the Second Vatican Council (October 1962-December 1965) is held at St. Peter’s Basilica in Vatican City. During this period of the twenty-first ecumenical council of the Roman Catholic Church, women are included in the proceedings as council document auditors and Mary is formally reaffirmed by Pope Paul VI as being the Mother of the Church.
  • The 1964 Summer Olympics is held in Tokyo, Japan. The first Olympics to be held in Asia and the first to be telecast internationally using satellites instead of tapes, Tokyo would host nearly 5,2000 athletes from over ninety nations. The International Olympic Committee barred South Africa from participating in this and future Olympics due to her apartheid system of racial segregation while the Republic of China boycotted the Games of the XVIII Olympiad citing open hostilities with the host nation.
  • At a ceremony in Oslo, Norway, Martin Luther King Jr. is awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his leadership in combating racial inequality in the United States through nonviolence.

(A view of the 1964 New York World’s Fair. The 700,000 lb Unisphere is in the center of the picture and Shea Stadium is at the far background left)

(“Come See About Me”: one of three #1 hits for The Supremes in 1964. The other two are "Where Did Our Love Go" and "Baby Love")
 
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I must say, regardless what you think of Stevenson's policies, he was definitely a very smart guy. I also really like that quote :). I feel it is very applicable this year... Also, congrats on beating the game. As I am not too familiar with it, how long does the Vietnam War mod run? Also, will you post an epilogue or something after the end of the mod that will include President Bush?
 
Not bad... the M60A3 Patton is ready 14 years earlier than expected, the Vought A-7 Corsair II and the AC-130A Spectre just two (I'm going to miss the Skyhawk’).
 
Will the elections have an impact on how the Vietnam War will be dealt with it(and how you will play the Vietnam War mod), like Jackson losing out to whoever, be it Democrat or Republican, and having the next president dealing with Vietnam differently than Jackson, since it's really a war he escalated ITTL? I know McGovern wants to bring the back troops ASAP, and I think George Wallace as well, but how about the other presidential candidates?
 
Will the elections have an impact on how the Vietnam War will be dealt with it(and how you will play the Vietnam War mod), like Jackson losing out to whoever, be it Democrat or Republican, and having the next president dealing with Vietnam differently than Jackson, since it's really a war he escalated ITTL? I know McGovern wants to bring the back troops ASAP, and I think George Wallace as well, but how about the other presidential candidates?
With how the country's been going TTL a Republican victory is all but assured this time around. Back then in 1964 the Republicans were strongly pro war-hawks and were a big reason why the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was able to pass with an overwhelming bi-partisan majority. Here is how each Republican would deal with the war.

Goldwater: OTL Goldwater was very extreme in the fight against Communism to the point that he made Reagan look like Carter. This was a major reason he lost the OTL '64 election as people saw him as someone who could bring America to the brink of nuclear war (even though Johnson acted entirely hypocritical in this regard as he got America involved in the most pointless war in our history). If Goldwater becomes elected he'll push for a more aggressive expansion in Vietnam, meaning tens of thousands more troops, Le May style carpet bombings of the north, and a possible intervention in Cambodia.
Rockefeller: Since Rockefeller leads the moderate Republicans he would most likely push for a limited expansion of Vietnam to say 120,000 men, increased air presence, border patrols in Cambodia. Honestly it would be the same as Jackson's method with more emphasis on international co-operation with regional allies.
Nixon: Nixon's policies towards Vietnam would reflect his pragmatism OTL. This means that he would order American forces to take a more defensive/reactive stance to the VietCong once Taylor's counter-insugency falls through, use massive bombing campaigns to force North to the table, secretly make incursions into Cambodia. Overall though he'll want to leave the fighting mostly to the South Vietnamese instead of taking care of them for the war.
Forbes: Forbes's policies are hard to predict as he was never a successful politician OTL. My guess is his focus on domestic issues would mean he would want to lessen America's involvement in Vietnam and just focus on fighting the VietCong instead of attacking North or spreading the war to Cambodia. This could mean he would use active diplomacy to create a peace treaty between North and South while returning troops home by 1970.
Romney: Romney was very vague about his Vietnam policies and this was a huge reason he was never able to win the nomination OTL. My best guess is he would probabbly just continue in the same manner as Jackson.

BTW i don't think there's a real possibility of McGovern or Wallace winning the election. After all how can you call this AAR the Vietnam War edition if you end the war before it begins. :D

P.S Thanks for including my request about Vatican II, Nathan. :)
 
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BTW i don't think there's a real possibility of McGovern or Wallace winning the election. After all how can you call this AAR the Vietnam War edition if you end the war before it begins. :D

Too true :D:D:D
 
jeeshadow: I thought so too [about the Stevenson quote], especially now that the Republican nomination is basically settled.

It feels like eons ago now when I fired up the 1936 scenario as the United States, wanting to wage World War Two differently.

The Vietnam War mod runs until the end of April 1975 when the Americans evacuated their embassy in Saigon and South Vietnam surrendered to North Vietnam.

I would like to do two more AARs after this one: the first covering the rest of the Cold War and the second based on the Modern Day Scenario (and I do use the word “based” loosely).

Kurt_Steiner: Talk about being ahead of your time. :eek:

NickFeyR: It depends on whether the winner of the election will want to abandon the current course Jackson is pursuing or stick with it despite the problems.

Certainly if I go the McGovern route, then it will probably defeat the whole purpose of this AAR (although seeing McGovern pull out eagerly and then watching everything go to hell in a hand basket would probably ensure Republican leadership for years to come). :D

Kaiser Chris: This leads me to figuring out how to turn the Johnson landslide victory of 1964 into a Republican victory this time around.

If you can make Reagan look like Carter, that’s quite the achievement. To be honest, I like Goldwater but I just can’t see him being President given how right-wing his views were.

Rockefeller has no shot at doing anything and Nixon is facing long-shot odds at making it to the White House without having the advantage of being Eisenhower’s Vice President for eight years.

Your analysis of Forbes’ possible handling is not too far off from what I am thinking he would do.

You can’t really blame Romney. He was brainwashed by the military after all. ;)

All in all, I really like your predictions about the possible ways Vietnam could be handled.

Wallace for President? He’s no John Sparkman, that’s for certain.

You are quite welcome. :)

Kurt_Steiner: Hence the unlikelihood of President McGovern.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Investigation of Lyndon Baines Johnson
It wasn’t what President Henry M. Jackson said that had people talking. It was who was...and wasn't...sitting behind him. On January 8th, 1964, the President stood at the rostrum in the House chamber to deliver the 1964 State of the Union Address. Whenever a President or another high profile speaker addresses a joint-session of Congress, it is the protocol for the Speaker of the House and the Vice President to sit behind them. Since he was the Speaker, Charles A. Halleck got to look at the back of Jackson’s head. As Vice President, Lyndon B. Johnson should have been sitting right next to Halleck during the State of the Union Address. Instead, President pro tempore Carl Hayden (the second highest ranking official in the United States Senate after the Vice President) occupied Johnson’s seat during the annual speech. Johnson’s absence was obvious and it generated national buzz about the reason why. The official White House explanation was that the Vice President had gotten sick and therefore wasn’t able to attend. Not everyone bought it though. Those who did not alleged that the real reason why LBJ was a no-show was because he had been dumped as Vice President. For the past few weeks, Scoop had been under pressure to force Johnson out because of the investigation into his personal finances.

The problem stemmed from Johnson’s close ties with Bobby Baker (seen above). The two men were good friends; when Johnson became Senate Majority Leader following the death of Alben W. Barkley in April 1956, he appointed Baker his secretary. It was LBJ who got Baker his next job as the White House liaison to Congress in the Jackson Administration. Then came the scandal. In late September 1963, allegations emerged that Baker was running a side business in which he provided lawmakers and other influential men with what he called “party girls” and pocketed the profits. In other words, Baker was making money from prostitution. Republicans on the Senate Rules Committee were quick to launch an investigation into Baker’s “party girls” service, as well as taking a look into other business ventures Baker was involved with - such as a business which provided vending machines to companies who were working for programs that had been established by Federal grants. Republicans wanted to know how a man who only had $11,000 in his bank account a decade earlier could have amassed a $1.8 million fortune while on the government payroll. Revelations from their investigation generated public attention. “Life” magazine ran a cover story about it, the big bold headline reading:
“THE BOBBY BAKER BOMBSHELL: CAPITAL BUZZES OVER STORIES OF MISCONDUCT IN HIGH PLACES”
The President, having already suffered a huge scandal at the Department of Agriculture that managed to eclipse Teapot Dome, responded by firing Baker on October 7th. He hoped getting rid of Baker would put a healthy distance between his Administration and the investigation.

Unfortunately for Scoop, it didn’t work. Baker may have been gone, but it didn’t get rid of the fact that he had prominent ties with Johnson. This gave the Senate investigators an irresistible avenue to pursue and kept the spotlight shining on the Administration, much to Jackson’s chagrin. Like Baker, LBJ too had money...a lot of money. For someone who had been born poor and had been on the government payroll all his adult life, it was curious that Johnson had a fortune worth $15 million. During the autumn of 1963, the focus of the investigation shifted away from Baker and more towards Johnson. On November 25th, a Maryland insurance executive named Don B. Reynolds was called in to provide testimony to the Senate Rules Committee. Reynolds claimed that in return for selling the Vice President a $100,000 life insurance policy, Johnson gave him advertising time on the Austin, Texas TV station that his family owned (as it turned out, it was also Austin’s only TV station). To back up his claim, Reynolds provided the investigators paperwork showing that there had been a tit-for-tat swap. Two weeks after Reynolds’ testimony, “Life” published the results of its’ own inquiry into Johnson’s wealth. Their front cover headline said it all:
“LYNDON JOHNSON’S MILLIONS: HOW DID A LIFELONG PUBLIC SERVANT GET SO RICH?”
The magazine, which regarded LBJ’s personal finances as being fair investigative game, laid out to the public what it had found. Readers were educated about how Johnson had maneuvered in 1943 to obtain the only license for a radio station in Austin (as well as the aforementioned sole TV station). There were sordid details about the Vice President’s financial holdings in communication, banking, and real estate. The “Life” issue and the Senate investigation combined to reinforce the image of LBJ as a crook who was illicitly using his position to enrich himself. “Is this really the man we want to be a heartbeat away from becoming President?” a disgusted Delaware Senator John J. Williams asked during his appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press” on December 15th. “A man who forgets that he is in office to serve the public and not himself?”
Representing Delaware in the Senate since January 1947, Williams was the driving force behind the Republican investigation. He was following Johnson’s money not out of partisanship but out of a religious-like belief that corruption in government was a cardinal sin and that any officeholder – Republican or Democrat, it made no difference to Williams – who was corrupt should be purged from that office. “Any person in government who collects a paycheck while making millions through outside means should not belong in government.”

(Senator Williams)
The controversy surrounding Johnson dominated the national conversation through the end of 1963 and into 1964. At first, the President sincerely wanted to give his Vice President the benefit of a doubt about these rumors concerning his wealth. After all, he had heard similar rumors in the past which turned out to be baseless. However, as time went on and rumors became established facts, Scoop found it increasingly hard to give Johnson that benefit. When White House Chief of Staff John Salter reported to him that evidence had emerged showing that LBJ had done political favors for people who had given him a top-of-the-line refrigerator and a high-end Magnavox stereo set worth $600, Salter remembered that “Scoop didn’t say anything at first, but I could tell from his body language that what I said wasn’t what he wanted to hear.”
Jackson naturally wanted to focus on other issues like civil rights and the economy. The media naturally wanted to focus on revelations of wrongdoing by the Vice President. The story of a public servant who had been caught using his power to enrich himself was a juicy one that was hard to put down. On CBS, Walter Cronkite devoted an entire episode of his evening news program to breaking down the “Life” issue in an easy-to-digest manner. NBC took an entirely different approach. On January 10th, 1964, the network aired the first episode of the American version of the groundbreaking British satirical comedy program “That Was the Week That Was”. The debut episode took several shots at LBJ, even mocking him with a parody of the 1858 traditional American folk song “The Yellow Rose of Texas”:
"He’s the richest politician
That Texas ever saw,
And he gets even richer,
Every time he writes a law.
How did he get so wealthy
Working for the U.S.A.?
It’s really very easy
If your name is LBJ!"


(Johnny Carson during a monologue: “We’ve just learned what Vice President Johnson will be having for dessert tonight at dinner – impeachment pie.”)
By mid-January 1964, it had become clear to all that the Vice President was a major distraction for the White House. As long as LBJ stayed in office, it was difficult for the President to pivot to anything else. This was not good, especially with an already tough re-election battle about to begin in New Hampshire. Something had to be done to get the Administration back on track...something drastic. Scoop was increasingly advised to ask Johnson for his resignation. Supporters of this move – which was unheard-of in American politics – argued that by forcing Johnson to step down as Vice President, the Administration could put this scandal to bed and finally move forward. It would also reaffirm Jackson’s reputation as a clean government President willing to scrub his own house of dirty officeholders. Jackson though dithered; he had become close to Johnson (their wives were especially close) and the idea of doing this to him bothered Scoop a great deal. “I’m afraid you don’t have any other choice,” Attorney General Roger Ledyard analyzed. “I think you have gone past the point of just dropping him from the ticket this summer. Lyndon will still be Vice President and you won’t be able to get away from him even if you banish him to his ranch for the rest of the year.”
Jackson was ultimately bailed out of his rare indecision by Johnson. The truth was that LBJ had grown disillusioned with the Vice Presidency by 1963. A man who had an insatiable appetite for power, Johnson naturally chafed under the historic limitations of his office. No matter how much he wanted, he was never going to be a co-President. Frustrated and not certain he wanted to stomach another four years of this, LBJ was privately telling his closest associates that he was seriously considering “not running again for Vice President,” adding that “What I would like to do is go back to Texas and be President of Southwest Texas State Teachers College.”
The scandal over how he had made his fortune exacerbated his paranoia about people around him. Johnson felt trapped, unable to escape the suspicious eyes that were following him everywhere he went. As had happened whenever his anxiety was running high and his self-esteem was at a low point, the Vice President was stricken by illness in early January 1964. The night before the State of the Union Address, he awoke sweating profusely. Suffering from severe abdominal pains and an accelerated heart rate, Johnson was medically sidelined from attending the Address (meaning that the White House’s explanation for his absence was the truth). While recovering at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, Johnson made up his mind that he wasn’t going to take this anymore. “To hell with all of them,” he told his close trusted friend and legal counsel Abe Fortas when he came to visit his private hospital room. Johnson was going to walk the plank on his own accord instead of being tossed overboard by those who were out to get him. He dictated to Fortas his letter of resignation; after signing it, he instructed Fortas to hand it personally to the President. “After they let me out,” he declared emotionally, “I’m going back to Texas.”

Thus Lyndon B. Johnson, the 37th Vice President of the United States, became the second in American history to resign (the other being John C. Calhoun, who resigned in December 1832 to occupy a South Carolina Senate seat). An embarrassed and humiliated LBJ retired to his ranch in domestic exile, never to play a role in national life again. His dream of becoming President of the United States and using the power of the Federal Government to build a Great Society that would benefit everyone had been thoroughly crushed. A broken man, Johnson went into what historian Michael Beschloss called “a very self-destructive spiral.”
The disgraced former Vice President let himself go, putting on an alarming amount of weight and resumed being a heavy smoker (he had stopped smoking after suffering a near-fatal heart attack in July 1955). Not surprisingly, Lyndon Baines Johnson’s troubled heart couldn’t sustain this careless lifestyle for long. He suffered a fatal heart attack in March 1969 at age sixty, a sad end for a man who wanted to do so much good for the country.
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List of Vice Presidents of the United States (UPDATED)
1.) John Adams (1735-1826); Federalist-Massachusetts (1789-1797)
2.) Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826); Democratic Republican-Virginia (1797-1801)
3.) Aaron Burr (1756-1836); Democratic Republican-New York (1801-1805)
4.) George Clinton (1739-1812); Democratic Republican-New York (1805-1812)
5.) Elbridge Gerry (1744-1814); Democratic Republican-Massachusetts (1813-1814)
6.) Daniel D. Tompkins (1774-1825); Democratic Republican-New York (1817-1825)
7.) John C. Calhoun (1782-1850); Democratic Republican-South Carolina (1825-1832)
8.) Martin Van Buren (1782-1862); Democratic-New York (1833-1837)
9.) Richard Mentor Johnson (1780-1850); Democratic-Kentucky (1837-1841)
10.) John Tyler (1790-1862); Whig-Virginia (1841)
11.) George M. Dallas (1792-1864); Democratic-Pennsylvania (1845-1849)
12.) Millard Fillmore (1800-1874); Whig-New York (1849-1850)
13.) William R. King (1786-1853); Democratic-Alabama (1853)
14.) John C. Breckinridge (1821-1875); Democratic-Kentucky (1857-1861)
15.) Hannibal Hamlin (1809-1891); Republican-Maine (1861-1865)
16.) Andrew Johnson (1808-1875); Democratic-Tennessee (1865)
17.) Schuyler Colfax (1823-1885); Republican-Indiana (1869-1873)
18.) Henry Wilson (1812-1875); Republican-Massachusetts (1873-1875)
19.) William A. Wheeler (1819-1887); Republican-New York (1877-1881)
20.) Chester A. Arthur (1829-1886); Republican-New York (1881)
21.) Thomas A. Hendricks (1819-1885); Democratic-Indiana (1885)
22.) Levi P. Morton (1824-1920); Republican-New York (1889-1893)
23.) Adlai Stevenson I (1835-1914); Democratic-Illinois (1893-1897)
24.) Garret Hobart (1844-1899); Republican-New Jersey (1897-1899)
25.) Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919); Republican-New York (1901)
26.) Charles W. Fairbanks (1852-1918); Republican-Indiana (1905-1909)
27.) James S. Sherman (1855-1912); Republican-New York (1909-1912)
28.) Thomas R. Marshall (1854-1925); Democratic-Indiana (1913-1921)
29.) Calvin Coolidge (1872-1933); Republican-Massachusetts (1921-1923)
30.) Charles G. Dawes (1865-1951); Republican-Illinois (1925-1929)
31.) Charles Curtis (1860-1936); Republican-Kansas (1929-1933)
32.) John Nance Garner (1868-1967); Democratic-Texas (1933-1941)
33.) Charles L. McNary (1874-1944); Republican-Oregon (1941-1944)
34.) John W. Bricker (1893-1986); Republican-Ohio (1945-1953)
35.) John Sparkman (1899-1985); Democratic-Alabama (1953-1954)
36.) Henry M. Jackson (1912-1983); Democratic-Washington (1957-1961)
37.) Lyndon B. Johnson (1908-1969); Democratic-Texas (1961-1964)
 
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A pity... I hoped that LBJ would visit the US troops in Nam, where he would step a punji trap or a bouncing Betty and... well, never mind...
 
To be honest, I'm not bothered too much by honest graft if the politician in question is still doing good by his constituents but then I might have read too much George Washington Plunkitt. Tammany did right by my ancestors, what can I say.

Well I can see Scoop losing the nomination now, McGovern can pull the clean candidate shtick against him with Wallace bleeding him in the South and the black vote probably won't be enough to save him. They could put a Forbes or Romney over the top, especially if its McGovern with Wallace as third party. '64 becomes '68 and '72 combined.

It would be interesting to see what domestic policy occurs with a reverse '64.

Without a Goldwater nomination and without the reaction to LBJ's post '64 liberal successes, its hard to see the right getting as strong of a grip on the GOP.
 
R.I.P Johnson's political career 1937-1964. In all honestly OTL Johnson was never really that bad of a president. He pushed for civil rights, basically won the space race, and even though i'm a conservative Republican i still have to admire alot of the good intentions and some of the positive effects that went into the Great Society reforms (even though medicare and caid are still a huge mess today but that's an discussion for another administration in this AAR). Though he did screw up Vietnam with his idiotic war policies which i hope Goldwater/Forbes can fix up.Really ironic though is that now Johnson will be remembered as one of America's most controversial and scandalous political figures while Richard Nixon will probably be remembered as a standup politician in TTL.

By the way i gotta ask if everything that was written in the last post about this AAR is true around Johnson's shady political practices. I learned in history class that there was going to be some congressional investigation about Johnson's dealings, but that was all cancelled after the Kennedy assassination and was never really looked into since. I'm kinda curious because i never really took the time to look into it and it makes me wonder if Kennedy was never assassinated then Johnson would have the same thing happen to him as this AAR.

Also while i'm glad your going to extend this AAR into modern day i can just imagine the insanity that it will be like to write an alternate 2016 election, especially now that Donald Trump is the definitive Republican nominee and I could see Sanders winning the nomination in an alternate :eek:.

P.S. I've been thinking of getting into Polandball comics recently and i was wondering Nathan if i could possibly posts strips on this AAR reflecting the political changes. I would call it Presidentsball and it would feature some of the twilight zone changes of TTL including America's compadre Cuba, Super Nationalist China, and the adventures of USAball under President Goldwater (if you decide to make him the winner that is ;)).
 
Bye Johnson. I wonder who Scoop will pick to replace him on the ticket, although it won't matter. Anyways, I am supporting Romney for President. I think that would be quite interesting.
 
To be honest, I'm not bothered too much by honest graft if the politician in question is still doing good by his constituents but then I might have read too much George Washington Plunkitt. Tammany did right by my ancestors, what can I say.

Well I can see Scoop losing the nomination now, McGovern can pull the clean candidate shtick against him with Wallace bleeding him in the South and the black vote probably won't be enough to save him. They could put a Forbes or Romney over the top, especially if its McGovern with Wallace as third party. '64 becomes '68 and '72 combined.

It would be interesting to see what domestic policy occurs with a reverse '64.

Without a Goldwater nomination and without the reaction to LBJ's post '64 liberal successes, its hard to see the right getting as strong of a grip on the GOP.

Here's my two cents on a reverse '64 under Goldwater or Forbes as they are in my opinion the two most likely choices to win. Under Forbes the economy will be the main issue as he'll use the power of the federal government to prop up Industry and maintain U.S dominance in global trade. Goldwater will want to focus on cutting taxes across the board in a manner similar to Reaganomics (Golden Economics for Goldwater?), he'll also want to heavily de-regulate the federal governent in order to support states rights and limit or entirely cut federal welfare programs. I wouldn't worry about Civil Rights as the Republicans are now champions of minority rights in TTL and both presidents will probably want to finish what Jackson started (especially since Goldwater is more moderate on the issue TTL). As for the role of Conservatives in the Republican party i can predict it going Conservative under two paths:

1. Forbes wins the nomination but manages to get Goldwater to support his campaign for the election. Over time Conservative Republicans will slowly fill up congressional seats with the rise of counter-culture, continued debate about welfare, as well as the rise of the Red South contribute to a steady conservative takeover when Bush enters office. Though under this route the Republican party will be alot more bi-partisan and moderate than OTL in the 80's and the outcome will mostly be centered on a potential Republican victory in Vietnam.
2. Goldwater wins the nomination and manages to pass many conservative reforms under a Republican majority congress. One outcome i could see that can also happen under Forbes is Goldwater handing the torch to Reagan to lead Conservatives to victory nationwide. In my opinion Reagan is too important of a politician to not be featured in a national level and a potential California Senate seat could lead Reagan to a 77-85 presidency, which he then steps down for Bush to succeed (a very realistic possibility since it happened in the original Presidents AAR).
 
Finally caught up and just in time for Vietnam to finally start. Thus far this has been a (mostly) better than OTL timeline, though it may not seem like it to some of those involved. Now Vietnam starts the challenge will be seeing if that trend continues, though a big question will be what constitutes 'better'. Would a South Vietnamese victory actually have been better, given the questionable nature of some of those in power? With a much more assertive China is the Domino Theory a realistic threat if the South falls?