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...And gunpowder came to Europe from China, your point?

India produced plenty of their own guns, from muskets to cannons, try googling Torador and Jezzail for some fine examples. They were also one of the biggest users of guns outside of Europe. Although they never adopted the flintlock on a large sclae, the matchlock was far from being hopelessly outclassed and was infact a more reliable weapon.
 
Getting back to the original topic, for China area I propose (forgive me if these suggestions are in any way redundant):

- Higher Infrastructure, China was way, way ahead of Europe in terms of State development in the 1400's.

- Higher land tech, Europe had yet to begin its takeoff in military technology in 1419 and in many ways its still feudal armies were significantly behind China's in terms of organization and operational effectiveness.

- Lower Naval, China never placed a serious focus on the seas, and although their shipbuilding technology was highly advanced this never materialized into more generalized blue water naval power.

- Lower Trade, China had no significant imports and was more or less a passive exporter of its many highly prized luxury goods.
 
Void Dragon said:
Nothing "happened" in India, infact they were doing quite well for themselves. India's militaries were only marginally behind Europe's militaries in technology. India is noteable for its widespread use of quality gunpowder weapons and advanced artillery, including famously rockets which the British saw fit to copy.

India wasn't conquered because of superior European power, but because the East India Company, much like Crotez, was able to utilize the local resources to their own ends in a highly effective manner. Enabling them to defeat enemies that would otherwise have easily crushed them.

If they had run up against a strong united India then they would have been thrown off the subcontinent with little effort.
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I have to agree with Garbon in noting that this is not really true. You may be thinking of the Mughal "Gunpowder Empire", but after the reign of Akbar, the Mughals took little interest in technological development of any sort, becoming progressively more conservative as time went on. This was proven in the late 17th century during the siege of Kandahar when the Mughals were unable to fire on the fort without first being well within range of the Safavid cannons, and only then without much accuracy.

The British mostly took advantage of the collapse of Imperial power in India in the 18th century in order to establish control, as well as the fact that no Indian state had been able to challenge Europeans at sea since their first arrival in the 16th century. So yes, superior European power was responsible.
 
Void Dragon said:
Getting back to the original topic, for China area I propose (forgive me if these suggestions are in any way redundant):

- Higher Infrastructure, China was way, way ahead of Europe in terms of State development in the 1400's.

- Higher land tech, Europe had yet to begin its takeoff in military technology in 1419 and in many ways its still feudal armies were significantly behind China's in terms of organization and operational effectiveness.

- Lower Naval, China never placed a serious focus on the seas, and although their shipbuilding technology was highly advanced this never materialized into more generalized blue water naval power.

- Lower Trade, China had no significant imports and was more or less a passive exporter of its many highly prized luxury goods.
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These suggestions would fit historically, but not so much in alternate history. They're also very representative of the Ming outlook, but not so much that of the earlier Song or Tang. Since we're dealing with "what if?" here, we can craft these choices as we see fit.
 
siafu said:
Actually, longbows, crossbows, and composite bows were all capable of piercing plate. I stand by my previous statement that the real advantage of firearms was in cost; note that their acceptance invariably led to the destruction or reduction of elite warrior classes/castes. Firearms were easy to use and relatively cheap compared to full armor and horses.
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You are in error here, the difference in monetary costs was minimal, the saving in expenses was that of TIME, training in the use of guns was much quicker for even militia units, while training in the use of bows and crossbows took 5 to 10 times longer.

You are correct in the armour piercing capabilities of the bows and crossbows.
 
Toio said:
You are in error here, the difference in monetary costs was minimal, the saving in expenses was that of TIME, training in the use of guns was much quicker for even militia units, while training in the use of bows and crossbows took 5 to 10 times longer.

You are correct in the armour piercing capabilities of the bows and crossbows.
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In my previous post regarding cost of firearms, I pointed out the time of training. This time did not come free; hence greater cost. We're not in disagreement.
 
This is all great stuff.

Idia, in particular, has really yet to be touched by Interregnum. While China has a lot more to go in terms of actual country files (though Siafu has been doing a knovk-up job :D ) the biggest gaping hole we have is in India. Calipah gave it a raw structure, but that's it: no country files, no monarchs, no revolters/alternate states etc etc.

And certainly no concept of 'what if'. None of us wants India to simply be a wealthy (if sacred ;) ) cow waiting for slaughter by Europeans, Arabs or the Chinese.

I think that in the vein of these discussions we need to consider a random event for more 'elite' militaries come the age of gunpowder.
Code: 
event = {
	id = xxxxxx
	random = yes
	trigger = {
		NOT = { flag = gunpowder_random }
		OR = {
			land = 5
			AND = {
				land = 3
				year = 1500
			}
		}
		domestic = { type = quality value = 6 }
		NOT = { domestic = { type = quality value = 8 } }
		NOT = { year = 1600 }
	}
	name = "The Age of Gunpowder"
	desc = "Your country has developed traditional military elites but now you and your opponents have guns and all that fancy armour and cavalry has become redundant. So, the quality of your nations military needs to be taken down a step."

	action_a = {
		name = "OK, but I will make new elite troops!"
		command = { type = domestic which = quality value = -1 }
		command = { type = setflag which = gunpowder_random }
		command = { type = land value = 500 }

	}
}

Note that:

1. There would be multiple versions for it to have a greater chance of occuring.

2. There would be separate versions for quality 8-9 and 10 which drop you 2 and 3 points respectively.

3. The cut off date of 1600 means that if it does not happen to you before then, you have managed to incorporate firearms more effectively, well done.
 
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Garbon said:
I made that stab at creating a more "individualized" structure for India but I was unsure on its reception.
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I know you had wanted to but I never saw anything. Where is it posted?
 
siafu said:
I have to agree with Garbon in noting that this is not really true. You may be thinking of the Mughal "Gunpowder Empire", but after the reign of Akbar, the Mughals took little interest in technological development of any sort, becoming progressively more conservative as time went on. This was proven in the late 17th century during the siege of Kandahar when the Mughals were unable to fire on the fort without first being well within range of the Safavid cannons, and only then without much accuracy.

The British mostly took advantage of the collapse of Imperial power in India in the 18th century in order to establish control, as well as the fact that no Indian state had been able to challenge Europeans at sea since their first arrival in the 16th century. So yes, superior European power was responsible.
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I said Indians, not Mughals. Compared to just about everyone else outside of Europe India was the closest to the Europeans in terms of gunpowder usage and technology. Indeed the fact that Mughals existed goes along way in explaining why they fell behind in the first place.

Again the seapower advantage was not a major advantage in technology. Anyone with boats and cannons could build ships with lots of cannons, a Chinese pirate once did it and nearly captured Manilla. Further, boats are great but if the enemy army outnumbers you 10 to 1 they won't help you as soon as you get beyond the range of their cannons. Unless India was conquered entirely from the seashore I doubt this was the case.

The population and economic resources on the subcontinent were way, way beyond anything any European power possesed at the time. Properly utilized it was well within their grasp to defeat the tiny colonial armies. Although by the time the Europeans showed up in China in force the Qing dynasty was on the decline, at their height the British would have been no match.

Even the Zulus were able to put up a good showing against British, who were armed with weapons that were incomparably more effective then weapons used even during the napoleanic era.
 
Void Dragon said:
I said Indians, not Mughals. Compared to just about everyone else outside of Europe India was the closest to the Europeans in terms of gunpowder usage and technology. Indeed the fact that Mughals existed goes along way in explaining why they fell behind in the first place.

Again the seapower advantage was not a major advantage in technology. Anyone with boats and cannons could build ships with lots of cannons, a Chinese pirate once did it and nearly captured Manilla. Further, boats are great but if the enemy army outnumbers you 10 to 1 they won't help you as soon as you get beyond the range of their cannons. Unless India was conquered entirely from the seashore I doubt this was the case.

The population and economic resources on the subcontinent were way, way beyond anything any European power possesed at the time. Properly utilized it was well within their grasp to defeat the tiny colonial armies. Although by the time the Europeans showed up in China in force the Qing dynasty was on the decline, at their height the British would have been no match.

Even the Zulus were able to put up a good showing against British, who were armed with weapons that were incomparably more effective then weapons used even during the napoleanic era.
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They had the resources but the actual techonology was driven by invaders like the Mughals or in the cases of states like Mysore and Hyderabad, weapons were acquired through relations with Europe. To state that the Indians developed equal techonology is disingenuous at best.
 
It wasn't equal, but it was close enough the difference would have been effectively irellevant with proper utilization.

What I have been trying to say is that well Europe did indeed possess a technological edge, this was not the main reason their armies performed so well against others. The main reason being simply they were able to figure out how to use their weapons in a far more effective way compared to other peoples.

There was no technological reason, before the industrial revolution, why India, China the Middle East or even some of the more advanced African states couldn't have produced military forces effectively equal to Europes. Of course what prevented them was the previously discussed factors of competition, no one else ever matched the intense investment European powers made in modernizing their forces constantly, they generally had much less of a need.
 
Void Dragon said:
It wasn't equal, but it was close enough the difference would have been effectively irellevant with proper utilization.

What I have been trying to say is that well Europe did indeed possess a technological edge, this was not the main reason their armies performed so well against others. The main reason being simply they were able to figure out how to use their weapons in a far more effective way compared to other peoples.

There was no technological reason, before the industrial revolution, why India, China the Middle East or even some of the more advanced African states couldn't have produced military forces effectively equal to Europes. Of course what prevented them was the previously discussed factors of competition, no one else ever matched the intense investment European powers made in modernizing their forces constantly, they generally had much less of a need.
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Welcome to Interregnum. :D

Whether or not this was true in the real world - a further discussion of which can take place in the AGCEEP forum - in the world of Interregnum we are very much expecting that the Europeans, by the time they make serious mercantile contact with India, will not be their superiors in military technology. Maybe, but not difinitely. A little ahead, or maybe even a little behind. If it works as intended, the Europeans will be well ahead 10% of the time, a little ahead 20% of the time, about the same 60% of the time and behind about 10% of the time.

Or it could be the other way around (if we ever get to the point of fleshing out Indian states and their explorers).

Sweet, eh?
 
MattyG said:
Or it could be the other way around (if we ever get to the point of fleshing out Indian states and their explorers).
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Here's a radical thought - what if parts of Europe fell victim to maritime imperialism from far away lands, of the kind Europe managed to impose on the rest of the world? (I say 'far away' because we already have land empires reaching into Europe from its fringes, particularly the Caliphate and the Central Asian hordes, and there's also Cordoba, which is European geographically but only partly European culturally. An example of a historical maritime non-European empire would be that of Oman.) I don't think it would be very likely even in an aberrated setup, because European imperialism came about under quite special circumstances, but I'm just putting the idea out to see what people think. Does northern Europe have a sign on it saying 'Europeans only'?
 
Incompetent said:
Here's a radical thought - what if parts of Europe fell victim to maritime imperialism from far away lands, of the kind Europe managed to impose on the rest of the world? (I say 'far away' because we already have land empires reaching into Europe from its fringes, particularly the Caliphate and the Central Asian hordes, and there's also Cordoba, which is European geographically but only partly European culturally. An example of a historical maritime non-European empire would be that of Oman.) I don't think it would be very likely even in an aberrated setup, because European imperialism came about under quite special circumstances, but I'm just putting the idea out to see what people think. Does northern Europe have a sign on it saying 'Europeans only'?
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OMG no! What I liked about Abe and later Int is that its our history which slightly changed its direction at some point. But as Interregnum progresses the more it wanders into the realms of fantasy, and such ideas only encourage this progress :(
 
Sekenr said:
OMG no! What I liked about Abe and later Int is that its our history which slightly changed its direction at some point. But as Interregnum progresses the more it wanders into the realms of fantasy, and such ideas only encourage this progress :(
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I agree. I think this idea, like many others that have been in these forums, is really intriguing, but it sounds like a different mod. We'd have to rethink so many things. I think that we need as a mod to concentrate on the way forward in time from 1419, not look back any more to see how it could have been different.
 
Guys, of course the Europeans weren´t advanced techwise.

But in some key military technologies and especially the use of it and sheer ruthlessness they were ahead of Africa, India.

I would advise caution before dropping techgroups all around.
 
TheArchduke said:
Guys, of course the Europeans weren´t advanced techwise.

But in some key military technologies and especially the use of it and sheer ruthlessness they were ahead of Africa, India.

I would advise caution before dropping techgroups all around.
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Thanks for dropping by.

That was the RW, which we are not bound to in an alternative history mod.

And we are dropping the techs at gamestart, that decision has been made and I think its a very exciting direction. Of course, much of Western Europe will still end up latin tech, especially all the ai countries, but there will also be more shifting up and down between latin and orthodox techs within Europe and the Middle east, and more scope for the RotW to up its tech levels.
 
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Incompetent said:
Here's a radical thought - what if parts of Europe fell victim to maritime imperialism from far away lands, of the kind Europe managed to impose on the rest of the world? (I say 'far away' because we already have land empires reaching into Europe from its fringes, particularly the Caliphate and the Central Asian hordes, and there's also Cordoba, which is European geographically but only partly European culturally. An example of a historical maritime non-European empire would be that of Oman.) I don't think it would be very likely even in an aberrated setup, because European imperialism came about under quite special circumstances, but I'm just putting the idea out to see what people think. Does northern Europe have a sign on it saying 'Europeans only'?
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I´m gonna bring out the geography card here...

It´s pretty hard to seize the north sea or baltic areas, because they are rather constricted seas, and they are not so great for resources you could ship across half the world. Timber maybe, but grain and wool don´t work.

So, no. I don´t think it´s realistic ;)
 
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