The Spice(s) must flow - Why a grouped spice system is the best option

[LordThanatos]

(Edit: Please be aware that there has been a lot of discussion over the course of this thread, and thus changes to the table of spices. You'll find threadmarks for later versions, but if you want to just see the latest version, you can go here)

First of all, I'd like to credit @Flower_Marlin with this idea. I've not changed it much from their initial proposal in the Indonesia Tinto Maps. My only addition has been to add Grains of Paradise, Ginger, an incomplete list of locations and plenty of justifications for this system over others. I think there should be some discussion over what spices should be represented, what categories they should be in as well as if the group names should be changed. I also think a fleshed out list of where these spices would be is necessary to envision what a final system might look like and how it would play in game.

And so I present the system as Flower Marlin originally stated it:

Honestly if you guys do go for the split of spices you can easily represent them by breaking up into 3 groups: Seed spices (fennel, coriander, cumin etc.) would be more common, bark spices (cinammon and cassia) spread them across southern India and Indonesia, and fruit spices (black pepper, long pepper, & cardamom) which would be rare and highly sought after.

Cloves & Saffron can be their own thing with a very high base price range (similar to cloves in EU4) and the cloves would be found in the far moluccas and Coromandel coast and drive gameplay for the spice trade routes.

Similarly Vanilla, Chile peppers and Cocoa can be their own thing and drive colonization of the new World.

EDIT: Saffron could be in a very few locations of persia, kashmir valley, andalusia and so on...

Now I've taken that proposal, looked at what regions they would encompass and started breaking down some different options for the number of goods.

Spices and their proposed Raw Resource Good​

Spice	Proposed Good	Region	Later Regions
Fennel	Seed Spice (1)	Europe, Asia	1500s: Americas
Coriander	Seed Spice (1)	Europe
Cumin	Seed Spice	Eastern Mediterranean, Central/SW Asia	1500s: Americas
Cinammon	Bark Spice	Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines
Cassia	Bark Spice	China, Vietnam
Ginger	Bark Spice? (2)	India, China, Madagascar, Pacific Islands
Black Pepper	Fruit Spice	India
Long Pepper	Fruit Spice	Indonesia
Cardamom	Fruit Spice	India, Indonesia
Melegueta Pepper	Fruit Spice	West Africa
Saffron	Unique	Iran, Spain, France, Greece (Especially Rhodes), England, Austria	1600s: North America
Vanilla	Unique/Bark spice	Central America	1800s: Polynesia, Madagascar, Reunion, Indonesia
Chili Pepper	Unique/Fruit spice	Central/South America	1500s: Africa, Asia, Pacific Islands
Cloves	Unique/Rare Spice (3)	Maluku Isles	Most of Indonesia, Madagascar
Nutmeg & Mace	Modifier/Rare Spice (3)	Banda Isles	1800s: British Colonies in India and Africa

1. I want to look into the place of Fennel and Coriander as spices. They are incredibly common across Eurasia so far as I am aware, and I have never heard of them being traded in huge quantities. I need to do more research on their role in this time, but if they don't fit, the seed-spice grouping might need a rework, unless other spices can be found to fit that group well.
2. I don't really know where ginger should go in this list. I think having it be a bark spice largely fits its role in the economic ladder here, and grouping largely overlaps with cinnamon in the bark spices. It doesn't make sense as a name, though. I've considered that it could be unique or even a medicament - but then most spices are considered medicinal in this period and introducing it as a unique doesn't seem like the right move. Unique spices should be limited as much as possible, especially to those of paramount importance.
3. Personally, I recommend grouping nutmeg and cloves as the highest value spices, (Rare being my working group name, but not a good one) if the Banda Isles are represented.

Number of Goods based on Grouping​

Unfortunately, this grouping still results in a quite a few goods. I'd like to explore possible ways I can think of to reduce that, and what impact that would have. Even with the lower numbers, I believe it could be acceptable, if that's the compromise that needs to be made.

Scenario	Number of Goods	Notes
Every spice separate	15	This is a bad idea, spices in the same market niche no longer compete
All proposed Uniques are made unique	7
As above, but Vanilla is a bark spice	6	Vanilla now competes with cinnamon, which is odd, but would probably be an acceptable abstraction as cinnamon is Asian while Vanilla is American. Likely the best minimum without significant compromise.
As above, but Chili is a fruit spice	5	Chili would probably not be as valuable as it would need to compete with peppers. The grouping would be strange, but if the values of pepper and Chili are close in the period, it might be the best minimum.
As above, but cloves/aromatics are folded into another category or made a modifier	4	A modifier might be acceptable, but folding cloves into another grouping reduces one of the most influential spices in history and makes locations it grows in far less valuable than they should be.
As above, but saffron is folded into another category or made a modifier	3	Dilutes the value of Asian/American markets for Europeans due to local production of Saffron. Putting it in the largely Eurasian "Seed spices" mixes lower priced spices with Saffron, one of the most expensive, even more so with the Black Death during the game period.
Current System	1	All the previous issues + no variation in price potential

Why not have every spice be a separate good?

1. Historically, some spices replaced others as powers competed to source and sell spices that could replace those of their competitors. The peppers all being separate would mean there's no reason to get cheap black pepper and undermine your rivals selling long pepper. Having them grouped gives them context.
2. Any production buildings using spices (If they exist) would have to account for every spice. I realize that this is also the case with this proposed system, but I believe the lower numbers are more manageable, while the benefits to gameplay are pronounced enough to probably make it worth it.
3. The developers have stated that they want to abstract the good and not represent all of them separately

Why not use a regional spice system?
I'm aware that there is/was a large call for regional spices, If you followed my points in the Indonesia thread, you're likely familiar what I have to say, but for those who did not follow, I'll briefly summarize:

1. Looking at the table above, there are very few regional groupings that do not overlap with others. This forces either:
   1. Incredibly granular groupings, to the point they might as well all be separate spice goods (See above for why that's a bad option)
   2. Incredibly broad groupings that lose out on granularity and cause higher valued spices in a region to share with lower-value spices. This also means that playing in that region, all spice nodes are equal and there's no reason to place higher strategic value on certain locations which historically grew more valuable spices. Intra-regional trade of spice doesn't really matter under this system.
   3. Dividing a spice's locations among multiple regions, such as having Cinnamon in both Indian and South-East Asian spice goods. Or having saffron in both European and Iranian spices.
2. Some spices that competed historically no longer would in the game. Looking in particular at the peppers, Melegueta pepper (An "African spice" under a regional grouping) has no connection to the niche it shared with black pepper (An "Indian Spice') or long pepper (An "Indonesian spice").

What's missing from the current list?

1. Probably some spices. I looked at a good number, but I think the spices represented need a few qualities, and this list covered most of those that do fit (I want to do a little more digging on trade in fennel and coriander in this timeperiod to see if they fit these criteria):
   1. Globally traded. Looking at the goods added to the game so far, they're all traded globally for at least some portion of their history during the game period rather than just regionally.
   2. High Impact. A spice that's widely available across most of Eurasia and doesn't get traded a large amount probably isn't a good fit for a resource.
   3. Is it a Spice. I guess definitions of this can vary, but I think expense and whether or not it's an additive are decent indicators of this.
2. The ranges of some of the spices could definitely be improved. I didn't get too specific and find exact locations for these goods, for one, but more importantly, I probably missed some ranges where the spices grew as I just did a cursory search for studies. This goes double for later Regions, and you will see that there's definitely a lot missing, there.

What downsides are there for this system, in my eyes?
The main downside in my mind is that groupings inherently abstract pricing, and lock certain spices prices together.
This seems like an acceptable abstraction to me. The only better way of doing this would be to have separate goods which still had some sort of group relationship in pricing code so that they could influence one-another - which sounds like a tall ask for this stage in development and may be too granular. This seems like it would drive enough interesting and dynamic gameplay while not being overbearing. Finally, whether or not this system would work with any production methods that use spice is a mystery to me. I suppose we will have to wait for an example in order to see if it would.

Thank you for reading, I am curious to hear what people think and what you all can find to add to this proposal.

 

[Atromb]

First of all, I'd like to credit @Flower_Marlin with this idea. I've not changed it much from their initial proposal in the Indonesia Tinto Maps. My only addition has been to add Grains of Paradise, Ginger, an incomplete list of locations and plenty of justifications for this system over others. I think there should be some discussion over what spices should be represented, what categories they should be in as well as if the group names should be changed. I also think a fleshed out list of where these spices would be is necessary to envision what a final system might look like and how it would play in game.

And so I present the system as Flower Marlin originally stated it:


Now I've taken that proposal, looked at what regions they would encompass and started breaking down some different options for the number of goods.

Spices and their proposed Raw Resource Good​

Spice	Proposed Good	Region	Later Regions
Fennel	Seed Spice (1)	Europe, Asia	1500s: Americas
Coriander	Seed Spice (1)	Europe
Cumin	Seed Spice	Eastern Mediterranean, Central/SW Asia	1500s: Americas
Cinammon	Bark Spice	Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines
Cassia	Bark Spice	China, Vietnam
Ginger	Bark Spice? (2)	India, China, Madagascar, Pacific Islands
Black Pepper	Fruit Spice	India
Long Pepper	Fruit Spice	Indonesia
Cardamom	Fruit Spice	India, Indonesia
Melegueta Pepper	Fruit Spice	West Africa
Saffron	Unique	Iran, Spain, France, Rhodes	1500s: England, 1600s: North America
Vanilla	Unique/Bark spice	Central America	1800s: Polynesia, Madagascar, Reunion, Indonesia
Chili Pepper	Unique/Fruit spice	Central/South America	1500s: Africa, Asia, Pacific Islands
Cloves	Unique/Rare Spice (3)	Maluku Isles	Most of Indonesia, Madagascar
Nutmeg & Mace	Modifier/Rare Spice (3)	Banda Isles	1800s: British Colonies in India and Africa

1. I want to look into the place of Fennel and Coriander as spices. They are incredibly common across Eurasia so far as I am aware, and I have never heard of them being traded in huge quantities. I need to do more research on their role in this time, but if they don't fit, the seed-spice grouping might need a rework, unless other spices can be found to fit that group well.
2. I don't really know where ginger should go in this list. I think having it be a bark spice largely fits its role in the economic ladder here, and grouping largely overlaps with cinnamon in the bark spices. It doesn't make sense as a name, though. I've considered that it could be unique or even a medicament - but then most spices are considered medicinal in this period and introducing it as a unique doesn't seem like the right move. Unique spices should be limited as much as possible, especially to those of paramount importance.
3. Personally, I recommend grouping nutmeg and cloves as the highest value spices, (Rare being my working group name, but not a good one) if the Banda Isles are represented.

Number of Goods based on Grouping​

Unfortunately, this grouping still results in a quite a few goods. I'd like to explore possible ways I can think of to reduce that, and what impact that would have. Even with the lower numbers, I believe it could be acceptable, if that's the compromise that needs to be made.

Scenario	Number of Goods	Notes
Every spice separate	15	This is a bad idea, spices in the same market niche no longer compete
All proposed Uniques are made unique	7
As above, but Vanilla is a bark spice	6	Vanilla now competes with cinnamon, which is odd, but would probably be an acceptable abstraction as cinnamon is Asian while Vanilla is American. Likely the best minimum without significant compromise.
As above, but Chili is a fruit spice	5	Chili would probably not be as valuable as it would need to compete with peppers. The grouping would be strange, but if the values of pepper and Chili are close in the period, it might be the best minimum.
As above, but cloves/aromatics are folded into another category or made a modifier	4	A modifier might be acceptable, but folding cloves into another grouping reduces one of the most influential spices in history and makes locations it grows in far less valuable than they should be.
As above, but saffron is folded into another category or made a modifier	3	Dilutes the value of Asian/American markets for Europeans due to local production of Saffron. Putting it in the largely Eurasian "Seed spices" mixes lower priced spices with Saffron, one of the most expensive, even more so with the Black Death during the game period.
Current System	1	All the previous issues + no variation in price potential

Why not have every spice be a separate good?

1. A number of spices historically competed, and powers competed to source and sell spices that could replace those of their competitors. The peppers all being separate would mean there's no reason to get cheap black pepper and undermine your rivals selling long pepper. Having them grouped gives them context.
2. Any production buildings using spices (If they exist) would have to account for every spice. I realize that this is also the case with this proposed system, but I believe the lower numbers are more manageable, while the benefits to gameplay are pronounced enough to probably make it worth it.
3. The developers have stated that they want to abstract the good and not represent all of them separately

Why not use a regional spice system?
I'm aware that there is/was a large call for regional spices, If you followed my points in the Indonesia thread, you're likely familiar what I have to say, but for those who did not follow, I'll briefly summarize:

1. Looking at the table above, there are very few regional groupings that do not overlap with others. This forces either:
   1. Incredibly granular groupings, to the point they might as well all be separate spice goods (See above for why that's a bad option)
   2. Incredibly broad groupings that lose out on granularity and cause higher valued spices in a region to share with lower-value spices. This also means that playing in that region, all spice nodes are equal and there's no reason to place higher strategic value on certain locations which historically grew more valuable spices. Intra-regional trade of spice doesn't really matter under this system.
2. Some spices that competed historically no longer would in the game. Looking in particular at the peppers, Melegueta pepper (An "African spice" under a regional grouping) has no connection to the niche it shared with black pepper (An "Indian Spice') or long pepper (An "Indonesian spice").

What's missing from the current list?

1. Probably some spices. I looked at a good number, but I think the spices represented need a few qualities, and this list covered most of those that do fit (I want to do a little more digging on trade in fennel and coriander in this timeperiod to see if they fit these criteria):
   1. Globally traded. Looking at the goods added to the game so far, they're all traded globally for at least some portion of their history during the game period rather than just regionally.
   2. High Impact. A spice that's widely available across most of Eurasia and doesn't get traded a large amount probably isn't a good fit for a resource.
   3. Is it a Spice. I guess definitions of this can vary, but I think expense and whether or not it's an additive are decent indicators of this.
2. The ranges of some of the spices could definitely be improved. I didn't get too specific and find exact locations for these goods, for one, but more importantly, I probably missed some ranges where the spices grew as I just did a cursory search for studies. This goes double for later Regions, and you will see that there's definitely a lot missing, there.

What downsides are there for this system, in my eyes:
The main downside in my mind is that groupings inherently abstract pricing, and lock certain spices prices together.
This seems like an acceptable abstraction to me. The only better way of doing this would be to have separate goods which still had some sort of group relationship in pricing code so that they could influence one-another - which sounds like a tall ask for this stage in development and may be too granular. This seems like it would drive enough interesting and dynamic gameplay while not being overbearing. Finally, whether or not this system would work with any production methods that use spice is a mystery to me. I suppose we will have to wait for an example in order to see if it would.

Thank you for reading, I am curious to hear what people think and what you all can find to add to this proposal.

After reading this I feel like I agree that seed spices make little sense, one might as well add parsley to the mix. They just don't seem economically relevant. (Note: Cumin could be represented by the medicaments trade good)
Bark spices could be renamed to sweet spices (better justifying the presence of vanilla in the group) and that could even lead to them being a required imput for some kind of sweets-bakery building.
While fruit spices could simply be called 'peppers'. Imo chilis being included in the grouping feels alright.
That way you would end up with four groups:
-Sweet spices.
-Peppers.
-Saffron.
-Rare spices (Nutmeg+Clove).

 

[Mef]

What's missing from the current list?

You didn't list mustard, which is the spice in Dijon. Also, Austria was producing saffron in 1337 and you didn't list it as a growing region.

To me, the big issue with having separate spices is on the demand side, since there's no goods substitution. If you have a lot of different spices and end up with every upper class pop in the world demanding access to all types of spices, even when some of them are only produced in a handful of locations, that sounds a bit too much.
It wouldn't make sense if spices make up a large portion of pop's demand either, just so spices can be a sought after good. We've seen a screenshot of burghers consuming 5.5 times as much jewelry as salt, which is absurd, and if it was the same for spices and salt, it would be just as absurd (in terms of amounts demanded, not money spent on it of course).

In my opinion, a good way to solve the demand problem might be a "Spice Trader" building: make certain specialty spices like nutmeg or cloves - rather than mass traded spices like pepper - into their own good which doesn't have generic pop demand, but is demanded by this building. Each special spice is a production method in the building, and with each unique spice it can buy from its market, it'll make the upper class pops in its location happier. Maybe it can provide some other effects as well, there can be cultural variations too for countries that historically engaged in the spice trade.

I know that goods substitution was canned, but could it be brought back just for spices? So you can have special spice goods demanded by buildings that can also be used for generic spice demand if necessary.

 

[King_Potat]

A quaternary split could also work, between old world seed, bark, and misc/rare spices and then new world spices as a separate category, as to simulate the necessity of both the spice trade from various parts of Asia while also keeping the new world spices important. Regardless, if spice categories are added, at least one of them needs to basically be exclusive to the Americas to give the area value over old world spices which will likely be produced at multiple times the rates. Even a simple binary split between old world spices and new world spices would do that, but the more heavy categorization of the old world spices could be cool to differentiate them if the AI can handle it.

 

[Ispil]

To me, the big issue with having separate spices is on the demand side, since there's no goods substitution. If you have a lot of different spices and end up with every upper class pop in the world demanding access to all types of spices, even when some of them are only produced in a handful of locations, that sounds a bit too much.
It wouldn't make sense if spices make up a large portion of pop's demand either, just so spices can be a sought after good. We've seen a screenshot of burghers consuming 5.5 times as much jewelry as salt, which is absurd, and if it was the same for spices and salt, it would be just as absurd (in terms of amounts demanded, not money spent on it of course).

Given that values are arbitrary, it should be entirely possible to make it so that the demand side of spice production is extremely low (in terms of volume).

Perhaps some standardizing of the actual meaning of the game numbers would help matters, because right now none of them mean anything. Which, given the fact that all of these values (production amount, demand amount, cost per good, capacity required to transport per good) are bespoke per good... yeah, I think without standardization, the numbers used become incoherent and lose all meaning.

Personally (and I set myself as following this thread for this reason) I can see merit in just making every single damn spice its own thing, but I'm also a madman.

 

[Atromb]

A quaternary split could also work, between old world seed, bark, and misc/rare spices and then new world spices as a separate category, as to simulate the necessity of both the spice trade from various parts of Asia while also keeping the new world spices important. Regardless, if spice categories are added, at least one of them needs to basically be exclusive to the Americas to give the area value over old world spices which will likely be produced at multiple times the rates. Even a simple binary split between old world spices and new world spices would do that, but the more heavy categorization of the old world spices could be cool to differentiate them if the AI can handle it.

But it will be valuable regardless due to it being a high value trade good that europeans don't have easy access to, you don't need to make it unique.

You didn't list mustard, which is the spice in Dijon. Also, Austria was producing saffron in 1337 and you didn't list it as a growing region.

Mustard could be grouped with the peppers then? Seems close enough.

 

[Mef]

Given that values are arbitrary, it should be entirely possible to make it so that the demand side of spice production is extremely low (in terms of volume).

Perhaps some standardizing of the actual meaning of the game numbers would help matters, because right now none of them mean anything. Which, given the fact that all of these values (production amount, demand amount, cost per good, capacity required to transport per good) are bespoke per good... yeah, I think without standardization, the numbers used become incoherent and lose all meaning.

I guess it all starts with whether they want to make prices wildly different (e.g. jewelry and spices costing way more than salt or wheat) so that the amounts produced and consumed can look somewhat realistic, or if they want to keep all prices fairly close to each other, which would mean expensive goods would be consumed a lot more.

 

[Atromb]

I found this tables, which seem prety useful for this discussion:

Intersitingly enough it was saffron and not clove or nutmeg which was the by far most expensive spice (and somehow it is the only spice whose price has only gone up since the middle ages).

 

[LordThanatos]

After reading this I feel like I agree that seed spices make little sense, one might as well add parsley to the mix. They just don't seem economically relevant. (Note: Cumin could be represented by the medicaments trade good)
Bark spices could be renamed to sweet spices (better justifying the presence of vanilla in the group) and that could even lead to them being a required imput for some kind of sweets-bakery building.
While fruit spices could simply be called 'peppers'. Imo chilis being included in the grouping feels alright.
That way you would end up with four groups:
-Sweet spices.
-Peppers.
-Saffron.
-Rare spices (Nutmeg+Clove).

That's probably one of the better ways to group the spices. I suppose the whole "Should chilis be a pepper thing" will be sort of moot if it turns out to already be a good separate from spices, but otherwise it does simplify things.

Also, Austria was producing saffron in 1337 and you didn't list it as a growing region.

Thanks for the catch on the Austria location. I saw it mentioned somewhere but didn't see a date. I've added it to the table.

A quaternary split could also work, between old world seed, bark, and misc/rare spices and then new world spices as a separate category, as to simulate the necessity of both the spice trade from various parts of Asia while also keeping the new world spices important. Regardless, if spice categories are added, at least one of them needs to basically be exclusive to the Americas to give the area value over old world spices which will likely be produced at multiple times the rates. Even a simple binary split between old world spices and new world spices would do that, but the more heavy categorization of the old world spices could be cool to differentiate them if the AI can handle it.

I'm not sure that a new-world category is necessary. The major new-world spices are chili, vanilla and sassafras (I was looking into whether it would count as a major good for the time, and it might). None of those are associated with the incredible demand that something like cloves or saffron had. Cinnamon was incredibly expensive, pretty analogous to vanilla (Probably the most expensive new world spice once Europeans took to it) until somewhat recent times when vanilla has soared in price.

 

[LordThanatos]

I found this tables, which seem prety useful for this discussion:

What a great resource, this has already yielded an interesting finding. I'd misread the introduction year of Saffron to England as being the 1500s. It arrived in the 1300s. I was wondering why the price was lower than in Amsterdam, which would have presumably had better access to French saffron.

I've updated the table, thanks!

 

[LordThanatos]

You didn't list mustard, which is the spice in Dijon.

Mustard could be grouped with the peppers then? Seems close enough.

I have been considering mustard. I just need to find a good price reference to figure out what category it was in. A few sources I've looked at have mentioned how cheap it was. It's mainly that which makes me a little hesitant to put it in with pepper, which is quite expensive at this time. The fact that it seems to have been plentiful and yet pepper was still so desired means it probably wasn't competing with pepper. I'll try to dig up some historical prices, but I wonder if it doesn't better fit with something like fennel and coriander as a fairly common and inexpensive seed-spice. (By definition it is one, of course, which helps.)

 

[Atromb]

I have been considering mustard. I just need to find a good price reference to figure out what category it was in. A few sources I've looked at have mentioned how cheap mustard was. It's mainly that which makes me a little hesitant to put it in with pepper, which is quite expensive at this time. The fact that it seems to have been plentiful and yet pepper was still so desired means it probably wasn't competing with pepper. I'll try to dig up some historical prices, but I wonder if it doesn't better fit with something like fennel and coriander as a fairly common and inexpensive seed-spice. (By definition it is one, of course, which helps.)

Hmm if it was fairly common it could be made a medicament instead? (it may seem weird but mustard was believed to have medicinal properties during the period). In general I feel like "common" spices should be either not represented or represented via medicaments, which are presumably cheaper than pepper in game.

 

[LordThanatos]

Hmm if it was fairly common it could be made a medicament instead? (it may seem weird but mustard was believed to have medicinal properties during the period). In general I feel like "common" spices should be either not represented or represented via medicaments, which are presumably cheaper than pepper in game.

It's definitely an option. The main issue is that pretty much all the spices were thought to have medicinal properties. Saffron had a huge spike in price when the black death arrived, for example and most late medieval/early renaissance sources I've looked at take the time to mention what every spice from pepper to cloves help with. It might still be a good solution to represent various herbs and daily spices.

By the way, looking at the reviewed map of France, one of the changes was to add spices to Dijon.

Perhaps the way to do it is have mustard be part of the seed-spices if more locations are meant to be shown as producing things like mustard, fennel, etc. If we just want to show Dijon as being a location known for mustard production and represent that unique role, while not adding seed spices, it might be fine to have it produce the same good as pepper. It would probably be the only European location with that good.

 

[WrathfulCelt]

I guess it all starts with whether they want to make prices wildly different (e.g. jewelry and spices costing way more than salt or wheat) so that the amounts produced and consumed can look somewhat realistic, or if they want to keep all prices fairly close to each other, which would mean expensive goods would be consumed a lot more.

From the prices we've seen, it seems the devs are going the route of "wildly different", as one unit of Gold costs almost a hundred times as much as one unit of Fur

On the topic of conversation, I think several of the least valuable spices could be rolled into Medicaments, particularly the seed spices, but otherwise I like the proposed splits.

 

[Mef]

Hmm if it was fairly common it could be made a medicament instead? (it may seem weird but mustard was believed to have medicinal properties during the period). In general I feel like "common" spices should be either not represented or represented via medicaments, which are presumably cheaper than pepper in game.

Should sugar and rice be merged into medicaments then too?
With understanding of medicine being based on Galen's four humors, pretty much everything could be attributed medicinal properties. Sugar, rice and almonds were popular in Europe for their medicinal benefits, since they're white and thus neutral - they won't upset any humors.

Medicaments is a good that includes everything that could be used for medicine and doesn't have another good already. Spices exist as a good, so I see no reason to make some spices medicaments.

From the prices we've seen, it seems the devs are going the route of "wildly different", as one unit of Gold costs almost a hundred times as much as one unit of Fur

I hope that consumption and production quantities will be adjusted to make more sense then, so pops don't consume more jewelry, fine cloth or spices than salt.


Speaking of, I just realized that since pop demand can be altered by local modifies such as climate and estate privileges can increase demand for certain goods, does that mean that buildings can also add pop demand? That would make it even easier to create demand for specific spices without having it be present for every pop everywhere.

 

[Ispil]

Speaking of, I just realized that since pop demand can be altered by local modifies such as climate and estate privileges can increase demand for certain goods, does that mean that buildings can also add pop demand? That would make it even easier to create demand for specific spices without having it be present for every pop everywhere.

Note that something that was mentioned is that "discovery" also plays into demand, for New World goods.

I think there's a thing Johan mentioned... somewhere that says that demands are entirely scriptable. So, anything accessible from a pop scope, can factor into demand. That includes any details of the pop itself (culture, religion, type), any detail of the location, the country, etc...

You can do a lot with that.

 

[Atromb]

Should sugar and rice be merged into medicaments then too?
With understanding of medicine being based on Galen's four humors, pretty much everything could be attributed medicinal properties. Sugar, rice and almonds were popular in Europe for their medicinal benefits, since they're white and thus neutral - they won't upset any humors.

Medicaments is a good that includes everything that could be used for medicine and doesn't have another good already. Spices exist as a good, so I see no reason to make some spices medicaments.

The point is that some "spices" are significantly cheaper than others and I'm not sure how necesary is to have a "cheap spices" trade good.

 

[King_Potat]

The point is that some "spices" are significantly cheaper than others and I'm not sure how necesary is to have a "cheap spices" trade good.

Perhaps by correlating spice locations with a smaller location with (presumably) fewer pops to reduce its production, or maybe the quantity of the RGO is varied in a way that helps with supply and demand? There isn't really a good way to go about the difference. Perhaps some require a building to be built, and that would hasten the process whereas just having the RGO wouldn't produce much?

 

[InvisibleBison]

I hope that consumption and production quantities will be adjusted to make more sense then, so pops don't consume more jewelry, fine cloth or spices than salt.

What do you mean "more"? Goods don't have units attached to them, and it seems to me to be pretty silly to decide that one unit of goods represents the same physical quantity of goods for all goods. Far better to say that, for example. 1 unit of salt is one ton, 1 unit of spices is 1 pound, and one unit of jewelry is one ounce (or whatever numbers end up making sense).

 

[Flower_Marlin]

Thank you so much for expanding upon my initial proposal, a fully fleshed-out grouping as you've presented here really puts into perspective the benefits of having 3-5 groupings of spices. A fine balance between diversity to represent the differences in demands and thus prices of certain spices over others, and abstraction without taking away the flavour of the spice trade from the gameplay!

I think ubiquitous spices, which were generally cheap throughout history and did not drive any major expeditions or trade routes, should not be considered as trade goods and thus abstracted away.

From the classification we have currently and the spices you've listed, you can easily see that seed spices "generally" would have a lower price range, bark spices slightly expensive, and fruit spices on the higher end of price ranges in-game.

I do however think Vanilla and Chilli Peppers should be their own thing. Chilli Peppers could directly compete with fruit spices (long pepper and black pepper) especially in India and Indonesia following the Columbine exchange and the colonisation of the East Indies, thus driving their prices down in Asia but then Europeans favouring black pepper would drive its prices in Europe up - adding a much needed dynamic flavour for the spice battles in the markets, as seen historically.