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Still, I do not believe Korarima should be in category of aromatic spices. It was extremely local compared to cinnamon and cardamom, an definitely did not have a similar role.
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Might be local, but it is literally called false cardamom or ethiopian cardamom.
That's a pretty good list, and I don't think there's anything particularly egregious to dispute here. I will once more mention my personal dislike for the name spices when referring to a group missing all the principle players of that good. Seasonings is a far better name, though, and I can get behind that..
As others have said, I believe korarima doesn't quite make the cut for anything past a seasoning, considering its nature as a primarily local spice, as there appears to have been little to no demand outside of East Africa for the spice. I've not seen it mentioned once as an important trade good. I'd put it in a seasoning. Ethiopia is mentioned primarily for their Coffee, gold and sometimes ivory in this period, not for spices except when trading spices through Ethiopia.
I don't think allspice fits well in the same group as fine spices, either. It became popular in Middle Eastern cuisine, but doesn't fit the role of these super expensive spices. I can see it being a seasoning, or maybe an aromatic, at a stretch. The fact that it tasted similar to nutmeg and cloves doesn't mean it was sought as highly. The other two were status symbols and rare, allspice was not, once it was found. In fact, while the Maluku Islands were sought for their spices, Jamaica was sought for it's climate being good for sugar production. If Allspice was at all as valuable as nutmeg or cloves, it would have been the primary cash-crop on the island, not the much less valuable sugar.
I have a minor dislike for ginger being in the piquant category, but honestly I can see why it would go there, or in the aromatics. I will only point out that Ginger goes for about double what pepper does in some of the trade ledgers I've read, such as this one, now, if you look at that, you might notice Cinnamon going for as much as mace. I am trying to find more pricing to see if that was a trend, but it might fit the category of fine spices. I also need to look into some historical production centers for it.
Many spices are given names like that. I don't think it falls under a good, except perhaps the most common category of spices. If you find some evidence that it was used in a supplantive role as the various peppers or gingers did with one-another, perhaps there's a case there.
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Version 3 - Seasoning, Aromatic, Piquant and Fine Spice Groups
Not much has changed from my previous grouping, but the few minor changes and better names we've settled on should be represented. Ultimately, I think this is the cleanest way to represent the grouping of spices under the game systems we've seen. Unless anything major is revealed that might upset this categorisation, I believe this is the final grouping in my mind.
As before, this is in best-worst ordering, with more compromises being made as the number of goods go down. The ideal is in the 1-4 scenario range, with 5-6 being good, and 7-8 being only a little better than the current one-good system. Any of these options would be a welcome change, of course, though some more welcome than others.
Spice Groupings
| Spice | Proposed Good | Starting Regions | Later Regions |
|---|---|---|---|
| Regional Herbs & Spices | Seasoning | Worldwide | |
| Mustard | Seasoning (1) | Europe (Dijon in particular), Africa, Asia | 1500s: Americas |
| Anise | Seasoning | Europe, SW Asia | |
| Star Anise | Seasoning | SE Asia | |
| Allspice | Seasoning/Aromatic Spice | Central America, Caribbean | |
| Sassafras | Seasoning/Aromatic Spice (2) | East Coast - North America | |
| Cinnamon | Aromatic Spice (3) | Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines | |
| Cassia | Aromatic Spice | China, Vietnam | |
| Ginger | Aromatic Spice | South Asia, Indonesia, Polynesia | |
| Cardamom | Aromatic Spice/Piquant Spice (4) | India, Indonesia | |
| Vanilla | Unique/Aromatic Spice | Central America | 1800s: Tahiti, Madagascar, Reunion, Indonesia |
| Black Pepper | Piquant Spice | India | |
| Long Pepper | Piquant Spice | Indonesia | |
| Melegueta Pepper | Piquant Spice | West Africa | |
| West African Peppers | Piquant Spice | West Africa | |
| Chili Pepper | Piquant Spice (5) | Central/South America | 1500s: Africa, Asia, Pacific Islands |
| Saffron | Unique/Fine Spice | Kashmir, Spain, France, Rhodes, Khorasan (Iran), Essex (England), Krems (Austria), L'Aquila, Enna (Italy) | 1600s: Pennsylvania (North America), 1700s: Kozani (Greece) |
| Cloves | Unique/Fine Spice | Maluku Isles | Most of Indonesia, Madagascar |
| Nutmeg & Mace | Modifier/Cloves (6)/Fine Spice | Banda Isles | 1800s: British Colonies in India and Africa |
- If Seasonings are not represented, I'd put a piquant good location in Dijon to represent the mustard trade there.
- Sassafras had one historical period of high demand prior to the 1800s, otherwise it is a relatively low-demand good.
- Considering the high price Cinnamon fetched, I can also see it being a fine spice. I need to see if I can find information about how widely produced it was
- I've put cardomom as a potential member of the piquant grouping. The historical accounts seem to show Europeans as treating it as a pepper, too. Whether that's enough to warrant it being in the category, I'm not sure.
- I've elected to place Chili in the piquant category. I think it makes for the cleanest option, and I've seen it mentioned as being used as a pepper substitute in this time. It could also be unique, but I'm not sure if there's much benefit to that.
- I've added Cloves as a possible good to represent both cloves and nutmeg, as the Banda isles also grew cloves, and are part of the Maluku Isles. I don't see a good reason to represent them separately.
Number of Goods
| Scenario | Seasoning Good Exists | Piquants Separate to Aromatics | Vanilla Group | Saffron Group | Cloves Group | # of Goods |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Yes | Yes | Unique | Unique | Unique | 6 |
| 2 | No | Yes | Unique | Unique | Unique | 5 |
| 3 | Yes | Yes | Aromatics | Unique | Unique | 5 |
| 4 | No | Yes | Aromatics | Unique | Unique | 4 |
| 5 | Yes | Yes | Aromatics | Fine | Fine | 4 |
| 6 | No | Yes | Aromatics | Fine | Fine | 3 |
| 7 | No | No | Aromatics | Fine | Fine | 2 |
| 8 | No | Yes | Aromatics | Aromatics | Aromatics | 2 |
As before, this is in best-worst ordering, with more compromises being made as the number of goods go down. The ideal is in the 1-4 scenario range, with 5-6 being good, and 7-8 being only a little better than the current one-good system. Any of these options would be a welcome change, of course, though some more welcome than others.
Grouped Goods with Ranges
| Good | Starting Regions |
|---|---|
| Seasoning | Worldwide |
| Aromatic Spice | SE Asia, India, Indonesia, a small amount in Polynesia and NE America (+Central America if including vanilla) |
| Piquant Spice | India, Indonesia, West Africa, Central America |
| Fine Spice (If used over uniques) | Maluku Isles, Banda Isles, Smaller amounts in centers of Saffron production. |
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Wow, that was fantastic read!
The fact how volatile were prices from abundance, to scarcity, to rival shipments taking the market share, price gouges, revolts in India ruining supply, scarcity of money.... and behind all the trade is realpolitik shaping the geopolitical events. And Venetians making a bank.
If as early as I. 1/2 of 16. century experienced such volatile prices of spices, then it's obvious that the spices were not as valuable as someone wants to make them out to be. Which I think is an indicator for less number of different spice goods, with low base price; but the speed and the range of it's market price spikes and drops should be alot!
I think it would be best having 2 spices goods: Spices and Rare Spices.
| low base price, high production rates | Spices | India, SE Asa, West Africa, Americas... | all the common spices |
| high base price, very low production rates | Rare Spices | Persia, Central Asia, Maluka islands, Banda islands, central America | Saffron, Nutmeg, Mace, Cloves, Vanilla |
And much less 'valuable' sugar was always much more valuable because it's easy to mass produces, secondly it has much more uses then any of the spices; and thirdly there is always a demand for more sugar.
And Rare Spices are rare and expansive because it's highly difficult or almost impossible to cultivate them except where they are naturally found.
The rest are easy to cultivate and adopt to new places, thus why they are cheap and common.
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I disagree with this take, it might as well be, that since spice trade was mainly monopolized by the Portuguese, availability was kept low overall. When the ships arrived, though, the prices went down quite a lot for a brief amount of time, then up again. A proper study should be made for this.
Saffron is not that hard to cultivate, but yet it is very labour consuming to harvest to these days, hence the high price. Vanilla was limited to the americas until recently, but it was quite widespread there: again, the real problem is the labour intensity (of pollination in that case).
I think we miss one important point, which is what spices already represent in the game. I feel like regular and not high valued seasonings like cumin, thyme or curcuma are not represented already. We should ask one of the developers though.
It is fine, I just found funny to have one small super valuable location in Jamaica.
I would look more at the general trend over time, for which an extensive research is needed. The various monopolies that were established over the years make European prices quite hard to read.
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The fact that Saffron is sterile, thus it needs to be cloned and replanted every year by hand, alongside very short harvest time, I would argue it makes it hard to cultivate. I am not even gonna mention all the work needed to be ready for sale.
Trend over time is already well documented. As Europeans over 18. century solidified and subjugated the East, alongside improvements in technology and logistics meant that there were no more spice shortages. As the prices of spices consistently fall and never recuperated, forced the East Companies to structurally reform the plantation colonization, and that's the time when things like Coffee, Tea, Tobacco, Opium and other cash crops became promoted dominant produce.
If you read that article you will learn that's its covering mid 16. century and that's the time of Dutch-Portuguese wars, where they lost the primacy on spice trade. Secondly it goes in deep about how Venetian via Alexandria (re)captured a significant market share of European spice trade.
Trend over time is already well documented. As Europeans over 18. century solidified and subjugated the East, alongside improvements in technology and logistics meant that there were no more spice shortages. As the prices of spices consistently fall and never recuperated, forced the East Companies to structurally reform the plantation colonization, and that's the time when things like Coffee, Tea, Tobacco, Opium and other cash crops became promoted dominant produce.
So saffron amd maybe vanilla should be their own thing, while all the other spices can be grouped together. Isn't it?
Nah, because those Maluku islands spices are/were unique for that archipelago and couldnt be found elsewhere.
Furthermore their production was rather tiresome as well. This give em all a common theme.
Rare, distant, hard to get, very expansive spices.
Well this is not relevant if we follow the argument of the general trend.
Besides, the Dutch Portuguese war was 60 years later that table was written.
And it doesn't matter, their price fell anyway. The only spices whose price didn't fall too much and whose value by weight is still comparable to gold due to production constrains are saffron and vanilla AFAIK.
Malukas spice still belong in the Rare group, just because they are more geographically limited and have much lower production potential. And yeah, their prices fell over time, so what? Compared to the rest of the spices they still hold higher base price.
Buuuuut....
If you think it is not relevant or if it doesn't matter, that completely up to you. Just like it's up to you , if you like to use the 21. century prices compression in weight of gold to good in century in order to support your interpretation for early 16. century prices.....
I'm not gonna argue with that.
While true that official Dutch-Portuguese war really officially started around 60 year later, but still open up war began about 10 years earlyer in Dutch revolts. And even before that during the 30-years wars they fought.
Furthermore if it wasn't the Dutch, then it was Ottoman or French or Safavid.....
Portuguese–Safavid wars - Wikipedia
Ottoman–Portuguese confrontations - Wikipedia
Ottoman–Portuguese conflicts (1538–1560) - Wikipedia
Not compared to cardamom
Completely missed the point, good for you then.
This is simply factually wrong, no need to answer.
My cat fought against the Portuguese too
I think that's the wrong reading here. Spices were the most valuable product in this timeperiod after precious metals. Pepper and the rarer spices of saffron, cloves, nutmeg, mace, vanilla, ginger and cinnamon were all region defining goods throughout the game's period and the lifeblood of numerous polities in this period. The prices do rise and fall throughout this timeperiod, but the only real permanent drops come toward the late 17th and early eighteenth centuries as monopolies started to be broken and European tastes started to vary in such a way that spices weren't the prestige goods they once were. Even after that, the trade remains profitable, though not the goldmine it once was.
Many spices in fact remained as expensive as ever throughout the time period and some even grew even into the 18th century - mainly those that countries had retained monopolies on. Take a look at graph 5 in this paper, for a good view of it, you'll notice no huge drop in prices.
I think that simplifies things too much. There's a good reason we've broken these spices into multiple categories, as you'd be tying most of the market fluctuations in prices together and removing nuance in regional play. You will notice that in my last posted table, this is scenario 7 or 8, the ones I mention as being only barely better than a single spice good. It removes the interplay of having a piquant good, a mid-range aromatic good, and the incredibly priced fine spices good - and the market fluctuations that can affect each separately.
Pepper was one of the most profitable spices the first two-and-a-half centuries of this game's period, and the trade never stopped being lucrative, it just stopped being as lucrative. It had a marked effect on the nations which traded in it, and the structures built to facilitate the trade even helped transition states from feudal to early-modern states (Source). The goods should be given the room to show that. Cinnamon, ginger and the like were still incredibly expensive until that 17th/18th century decline in the trade, and the fine spices remained expensive beyond that, while some goods like vanilla traced their own route, becoming more and more expensive as taste for it increased. Putting it in the rare spices is ahistorical for more than half the game's runtime and putting it in common spices is ahistorical for the other half.
There was not always such a large demand for sugar. Sugar was incredibly expensive until the new-world colonies started producing it, and was usually only seen by the richest members of society. Having sugar at social events was as much a show of wealth as having cloves or ginger was at the time. It's only the increased production in the new world and Africa that brought it increasingly toward being a good that more and more people could afford in Europe.
That's not really true. Saffron is and was expensive because the harvesting process is incredibly taxing and produces only minute amounts of actual Saffron thread for each plant. Cloning and growing bulbs is not all that difficult, plucking individual threads of saffron spice from the flower is. Nutmeg and mace were only as expensive as they were because they were confined to a single, tiny set of islands and easily monopolized. The moment the British stole trees and replanted them across their colonial holdings, the price dropped.
Cloves also aren't all that difficult to replant, as seen in Zanzibar and Madagascar. Cloves have become far more accessible as time has gone on, and aren't particularly expensive these days. The reason for their expense was, once more, regional isolation and ease of monopolizing. The moment they were grown elsewhere, cloves became far less valuable. The only expense they retain is from having to be manually harvested.
Vanilla, a final study, only grew in expense because it could not be made to produce outside of its native range until the 1800s. It only grew in expense after that because it has to be manually pollinated outside of that range, and the original Central American crop is becoming sterile - amounting to natural vanilla just not keeping up with demand as it became the most in-demand flavour on Earth.
You might be noticing a trend in what makes spices expensive - manual labor and monopoly.
A few small mistakes here. The Dutch-Portuguese wars (begun in 1598) are half a century after the timeframe of those prices (1538-1544). In addition, the Venetian trade was not recapturing their market share, they were holding it, but losing that hold at the time. Their efforts to retain their previous monopoly on the spice trade was being slowly frustrated by the Portuguese attempts to wrest it into their own hands. The Venetian trade was at its peak during the period of Mamluke control of Alexandria. (Source, Another Source) and significantly declined after the Ottoman occupation of Egypt. Unlike the Mamlukes, the Ottoman sultans seemed to have little interest for their early history in controlling the spice trade. This brought a decline in the amount of spice available in Europe and prompted the European powers, particularly Portugal to seek out ways of entering the trade. The article I'd linked mentions that the period it is looking at is after the French get a capitulation from the Ottomans allowing for the spice trade from Alexandira to Marsailles.
The Mamlukes had historically had more of a mercantilist, hands-on approach to their control, largely because the Portuguese control of the Red sea was at a high point. It was only once the Ottomans could contest that control that they really entered the spice market and allowed the Portuguese monopoly to be challenged from the East. (Source) The most interesting thing is that some portion of what the Ottomans were trading from this point on was sold to them by none other than unsanctioned Portuguese traders.
It helps that the Portuguese are famous for their mismanagement of the trade and failure to capitalise on their monopoly. The Dutch still found the spice trade lucrative when they made their move to enter it, and were somewhat more efficient in managing it, bringing profits up and gradually pushing Portugal out of their monopoly over some spices such as pepper, while largely supplanting it for nutmeg and cloves. (Source)
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Cultviation of Nutmeg and Cloves outside of Maluku islands only started in 19. century.
Yes, because the Dutch successfully prevented the transplantation of the nutmeg to other locations through rigorous enforcement, not because of any inherent difficulty in cultivating them.
- Cloves were taken and planted in Mauritius by Pierre Poivre, after which point they made their way to Zanzibar and Madagascar
- Nutmeg was transplanted to British holdings after the Invasion of the Spice Islands
Riiight, and do you seriously believe that all that time, since ancient history, before the Portuguese and the Dutch came to the Indies. That no one ever tried to cultivate them outside the islands?
Did you check the years on this 2 articles?
Did you check the years on this 2 articles?
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Ultimately, one of the most difficult historical questions to answer can be why something didn't happen as unless the sources directly say why. The best we can do is provide some informed speculation. Here I will give some probable reasons for why the cultivation didn't reach other areas before the Dutch monopoly, but ultimately, I don't see any reason why it would have been impossible to do, so why it didn't happen could be anything you can imagine. I didn't find any studies on the non-introduction of Maluku spices to other regions, nor any indication that there was some botanical hurdle to said introduction which had to first be overcome.
To my knowledge, no outside power controlled the Banda Isles until the Dutch, other than the Portuguese who were quickly ousted from the islands by the Bandaese after trying to build a fort. What power would be taking seedlings out and planting them? You can't take the nutmeg or mace and just plant it to grow a nutmeg tree, you need the actual, viable seedlings, or to take living saplings. Sure, in retrospect, knowing what happened, the Portuguese would have been wise to take plants to the gardens of their trading posts at the time (Whichever ones had the right climate, anyway), but clearly they didn't anticipate being ousted, and then having the Dutch take control of the isles entirely, blocking them out of the trade. As for why seedlings were not dispersed prior to that, I'm not sure why you think they would have been. Clearly it was not in the native Bandaese interest to do so, and apparently the Indonesian kingdoms never had the incentive to take them by force and do so. They were buying the spices incredibly cheaply, and were the only powers with the access to trade. What, other than hindsight motivates them to do so?
The Banda Isles were one of the first major colonial possessions taken for the purposes of securing production rather than just access to a market. Where do you think they would have planted the nutmeg? The holdings they were later planted in after being taken were only acquired long after the Bandas fell under Dutch control. Those small trade holdings prior to the occupation of the spice islands were for just that, trade. They were not plantations and usually only grew provisions for the traders who lived there. Of course this would change later on, but generally spices were left for locals to cultivate, sell cheaply to the Europeans, then have the Europeans sell them for five times that price back in Europe. The Banda Isles being so small meant they were easily controlled by the first power to place a fort on the central island, making them incredibly easy to monopolize, where a power was able to hold only a single fort and yet entirely control the entire means of production for a good, as well as access to that good.
Finally, the fact that they were not cultivated is not a particularly good argument for the fact that they couldn't be. If you can point me toward some innovation which had to be discovered before their cultivation outside of their native ranges, I'd be open to hear it, but this does not seem to be like the case of vanilla where there actually had to be a breakthrough in botanical understanding to get cultivation underway. The reason it wasn't grown elsewhere is that nobody did, to put it simply. Why that is ultimately doesn't matter in-game, only whether or not there are barriers to growing the crop.
Considering that we've heard that Paradox is working on a system to change grown raw resources, I cannot see why a country could not occupy a spice location and start growing the spice elsewhere, in locations with the right climate. It'd be interesting to see how this is planned to be balanced, but I think it's an interesting alternate history where the protectionism of spice trading could be circumvented earlier.
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And what about renaming Medicaments to Herbs, this way Herbs would cover both Medicaments mechanics and basic cheap local herbs and seasoning everywhere.
Then:
- Aromatic Spice can be called Flavours, include Saffron, and represent more rare and expensive herbs, that are still presented worldwide but in far lower quantities than Herbs.
- Piquant Spice - Peppers - deserve its category.
- Fine Spice can become just Spices and be present only at Spices Islands.
And concerning the idea with the building converting raw spices into one produced product, I would call it seasoning. If this idea will be implemented.
| GOOD & DESCRIPTION | REGIONS & QUANTITY |
|---|---|
| Herbs: Medicaments + Some Regional Herbs & Spices (incl. Mustard, Anise, Allspice etc.) | Worldwide; not so rare; instead of Medicaments - demanded by pops, armies, navies etc. |
| Flavours: Aromatic Spices + Rare Expensive Regional Herbs & Spices (incl. Ginger, Cardamon, Cinnamon, Vanilla, Saffron) | Worldwide; extremely rare in Europe |
| Peppers: Actually all kinds of peppers | India, Indonesia, West Africa, Americas |
| Spices: Cloves, Nutmeg, Mace | Maluku & Banda Isles |
| (optional) Seasoning: Produced good from Flavours, Peppers or Spices | Produced in a building via different production methods; then distributed to pops |
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I take issue with this one because it's such simplistic way to look at the grand scheme, and makes the Portuguese look like buffoons.
I agree that they failed to capitalize on parts of the trade because it was a military enterprise a it's core.
It was a hostile environment, as it was proven over and over again with the Maneluks the Ottomans and several regional powers
War of the League of the Indies - Wikipedia
Huge amounts if money was invested back into the armadas, and even so Portugal made bank.
Take into account the predation of Corsairs in the Atlantic, the attempts by other European power to ocuppy Brazil, the constant drain that it was north africa, whatever western african enterprises were going, east africa was mostly hostile sultanates, the Arabian peninsula India and east Asia.
In the 16th century.
It's easy to forget the big picture and call it incompetence.
Which unfortunately it something you would read from a few european sources.
Edit: Also central Europe was the main spot of selling the spices for Portugal. Antwerp even had a Portuguese Quarter.
That market was lost with the Iberian Union
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That's an interesting suggestion, though I'm not sure about the line between medicament and herbs. All spices and herbs were believed to have some sort of medicinal value and I feel that mixing goods primarily used for flavour with things like opium is a strange choice. One side effect of what you suggest is that herbs would not be able to be used for the Seasonings good as it's a medicament, nor would Mustard - which is really the commoners flavour in medieval Europe. If you did allow medicaments to be used for flavours, it would fix that issue and introduce being able to use opium as a seasoning. Honestly, my position is still that what I've grouped as Seasonings - that is common herbs and spices not traded in large quantities internationally - should be the first thing cut from these groups. I'd much rather not see them represented due to low economic activity than have them complicate other goods more than they already are.
Beyond that, I think flavours is a strange name for a good, and mixing Saffron with general Aromatic spices makes little sense.
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