The Spice(s) must flow - Why a grouped spice system is the best option

[Fawr]

I feel Nutmeg and Cloves might be important enough to be their own spices due to their rarity. As long as they aren't handed out too easily all over the world via events/missions/decisions (unless those also crash the price).

To me, the big issue with having separate spices is on the demand side, since there's no goods substitution. If you have a lot of different spices and end up with every upper class pop in the world demanding access to all types of spices, even when some of them are only produced in a handful of locations, that sounds a bit too much.
It wouldn't make sense if spices make up a large portion of pop's demand either, just so spices can be a sought after good. We've seen a screenshot of burghers consuming 5.5 times as much jewelry as salt, which is absurd, and if it was the same for spices and salt, it would be just as absurd (in terms of amounts demanded, not money spent on it of course).

In my opinion, a good way to solve the demand problem might be a "Spice Trader" building: make certain specialty spices like nutmeg or cloves - rather than mass traded spices like pepper - into their own good which doesn't have generic pop demand, but is demanded by this building. Each special spice is a production method in the building, and with each unique spice it can buy from its market, it'll make the upper class pops in its location happier. Maybe it can provide some other effects as well, there can be cultural variations too for countries that historically engaged in the spice trade.

I know that goods substitution was canned, but could it be brought back just for spices? So you can have special spice goods demanded by buildings that can also be used for generic spice demand if necessary.

I like the idea of a spice trading building as a way to get good substitution by stealth (and say variety of spices is better than lots of one type).

 

[LordThanatos]

Thank you so much for expanding upon my initial proposal.

Well thank you for suggesting it!

I think ubiquitous spices, which were generally cheap throughout history and did not drive any major expeditions or trade routes, should not be considered as trade goods and thus abstracted away.

I definitely agree, I've had to ignore several hundred local spices when reviewing if there were any glaring omissions, because I don't think they quite fit. It turns out your list was quite comprehensive for what should be the primary components of these groups.

I do however think Vanilla and Chilli Peppers should be their own thing. Chilli Peppers could directly compete with fruit spices (long pepper and black pepper) especially in India and Indonesia following the Columbine exchange and the colonisation of the East Indies, thus driving their prices down in Asia but then Europeans favouring black pepper would drive its prices in Europe up - adding a much needed dynamic flavour for the spice battles in the markets, as seen historically.

Also agreed. I only gave reasons to put them into other groups if the devs absolutely have to get the number of spice goods down. Having them separate makes perfect sense.

 

[LordThanatos]

My mind is now as swamped with 14th century spice trade studies as I can manage for the day. I'll leave you all with the table as it stands:

Spice	Proposed Good	Region	Later Regions
Fennel	Seed Spice	Europe, Asia	1500s: Americas
Coriander	Seed Spice	Europe
Cumin	Seed Spice	Eastern Mediterranean, Central/SW Asia	1500s: Americas
Mustard	Seed Spice	Europe (Dijon in particular), Africa, Asia	America
Cinammon	Bark Spice	Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines
Cassia	Bark Spice	China, Vietnam
Black Pepper	Fruit Spice	India
Long Pepper	Fruit Spice	Indonesia
Cardamom	Fruit Spice	India, Indonesia
Melegueta Pepper	Fruit Spice	West Africa
Saffron	Unique	Iran, Spain, France, Greece (Especially Rhodes), England, Austria	1600s: North America
Vanilla	Unique/Bark spice	Central America	1800s: Polynesia, Madagascar, Reunion, Indonesia
Chili Pepper	Unique/Fruit spice	Central/South America	1500s: Africa, Asia, Pacific Islands
Cloves	Unique/Rare Spice	Maluku Isles	Most of Indonesia, Madagascar
Nutmeg & Mace	Modifier/Rare Spice	Banda Isles	1800s: British Colonies in India and Africa

The main change here is adding mustard to the seed-spices.
None of the numbers have changed for proposed groupings given in the first post if the number of goods needs to be reduced.

Here are the spices I believe might be good to represent, but am not sure of.

Spice	Proposed Good	Region
Sassafras (1)	Bark Spice?	North America, East Coast
Ginger (2)	Bark Spice?	Asia
Allspice (3)	Seed Spice?	Caribbean and Central America

1. Upon review, Sassafras had a period of fairly significant demand in England and might suit being folded into one of the groups. It actually produces two spices, one from powdered, dried leaves and another from the root-bark (Later used for root-beer) I'd place it tentatively in the bark-spice category as a result, but I'd also put very few locations producing it for balance.
2. Ginger also doesn't cleanly fall into any of the categories. In price it might be either a bark or seed spice. Tentatively, I'd put it in the bark spice despite it being a rhizome.
3. Allspice doesn't seem to have been overly expensive at any time and is produced from dried berries. I suppose it could also be a fruit-spice.

 

[Fawr]

Interestingly enough it was saffron and not clove or nutmeg which was the by far most expensive spice (and somehow it is the only spice whose price has only gone up since the middle ages).

This is great. The volumes produced or sold are the only thing missing from here. My understanding is that a single saffron plant will only produce a tiny amount of saffron spice from a tiny stalk inside the flower.

has details of the modern production process

However even without volumes price is useful. If your ship's hold only stores so many pounds, you want to fill it with the spices with a high cost per pound.

I'm curious though if similar data is available for after the Europeans got involved in the spice trade directly? I assume the Dutch monopoly of Nutmeg, Mace & Cloves, as well as other Europeans trading other spices would have changed the relative costs.

Hmm if it was fairly common it could be made a medicament instead? (it may seem weird but mustard was believed to have medicinal properties during the period). In general I feel like "common" spices should be either not represented or represented via medicaments, which are presumably cheaper than pepper in game.

I feel that this is a flaw in the 1 spice good system. Dijon mustard didn't mean the French weren't interested in getting spices from India. It certainly didn't mean England or Holland would buy spices from Dijon instead of going to the Indies.

 

[Mef]

What do you mean "more"? Goods don't have units attached to them, and it seems to me to be pretty silly to decide that one unit of goods represents the same physical quantity of goods for all goods. Far better to say that, for example. 1 unit of salt is one ton, 1 unit of spices is 1 pound, and one unit of jewelry is one ounce (or whatever numbers end up making sense).

Exactly, you can choose the units arbitrarily, so it makes sense to choose them so the most commonly demanded goods like grain, salt, fabric have the highest demand in terms of numbers in the game, while luxury goods like jewelry or spices only have smaller numbers.
It just looks wrong if it's the other way around.

 

[coconutboat]

Ginger also doesn't cleanly fall into any of the categories. In price it might be either a bark or seed spice. Tentatively, I'd put it in the bark spice despite it being a rhizome.

Ginger is indeed a rhizome, along with greater galangal (lengkuas), aromatic ginger (kencur), curcuma zanthorrhiza (temulawak), and turmeric. These rhizome spices are mostly used in South and Southeast Asia. Only ginger that is more widely used worldwide. I don't know how extensively they were traded in 1337 or if people just uproot them from their backyard back then. I wasn't born yet. I just want to add more chaos

 

[slupie]

While ginger was definitely the most traded, galangal and turmeric were traded as spices as well.

 

[LordThanatos]

I just want to add more chaos

Don't we all?

Only ginger that is more widely used worldwide. I don't know how extensively they were traded in 1337 or if people just uproot them from their backyard back then.

I've been looking into the ginger trade, and in some periods I think it does fit the criteria of being globally traded and fairly high-impact. I didn't see any particular expeditions to try and acquire more, or wars fought over it, which sometimes makes it easy to group a spice, but it still seems to fit, just. I'd not be surprised if the gingers have to be cut for the purposes of slimming down the spice categories.

While ginger was definitely the most traded, galangal and turmeric were traded as spices as well.

I'm definitely lacking good. comprehensive papers for Intra-Asian trade in spices, so I'd love to get some more information on trade and centers of production in this time period in all three. I'm currently of the opinion that all gingers, that is spices in the the family all three share - Zingiberaceae should be treated as the same good, at least for game purposes. They're in roughly the same region and fill the same economic niche. That might be an opinion based in ignorance, though. If anyone can give good reasons for a split, I'm interested to hear it and what you propose.

Edit: Just out of interest's sake, this is what ginger as a good would look like. Note that I've broken it down further than most other spices to get a good picture of range of growth.

Spice	Region
Ginger (Zingiber officinale)	South Asia, Indonesia, Polynesia
Turmeric (Curcuma longa)	India, SE Asia
Greater Galangal (Alpinia galanga)	Indonesia, Possibly SE Asia
Lesser Galangal (Alpinia officinarum)	South China, SE Asia
Fingerroot (Boesenbergia rotunda)	South China, SE Asia
Aromatic Ginger (Kaempferia galanga)	SE Asia

As you can see, Ginger already overlaps in range with all of the less-traded types and, in fact grows further abroad than all all of them. Its range is currently pretty centered in one region of the world and, unlike cloves, I don't think it has the impact to warrant a good of its own. Looking at the maps of SE Asia and China, I'm not sure if ginger is being represented. It seems more likely that the current spice nodes are cinnamon.

 

[ibvfteh]

First of all, I'd like to credit @Flower_Marlin with this idea. I've not changed it much from their initial proposal in the Indonesia Tinto Maps. My only addition has been to add Grains of Paradise, Ginger, an incomplete list of locations and plenty of justifications for this system over others. I think there should be some discussion over what spices should be represented, what categories they should be in as well as if the group names should be changed. I also think a fleshed out list of where these spices would be is necessary to envision what a final system might look like and how it would play in game.

And so I present the system as Flower Marlin originally stated it:


Now I've taken that proposal, looked at what regions they would encompass and started breaking down some different options for the number of goods.

Spices and their proposed Raw Resource Good​

Spice	Proposed Good	Region	Later Regions
Fennel	Seed Spice (1)	Europe, Asia	1500s: Americas
Coriander	Seed Spice (1)	Europe
Cumin	Seed Spice	Eastern Mediterranean, Central/SW Asia	1500s: Americas
Cinammon	Bark Spice	Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines
Cassia	Bark Spice	China, Vietnam
Ginger	Bark Spice? (2)	India, China, Madagascar, Pacific Islands
Black Pepper	Fruit Spice	India
Long Pepper	Fruit Spice	Indonesia
Cardamom	Fruit Spice	India, Indonesia
Melegueta Pepper	Fruit Spice	West Africa
Saffron	Unique	Iran, Spain, France, Greece (Especially Rhodes), England, Austria	1600s: North America
Vanilla	Unique/Bark spice	Central America	1800s: Polynesia, Madagascar, Reunion, Indonesia
Chili Pepper	Unique/Fruit spice	Central/South America	1500s: Africa, Asia, Pacific Islands
Cloves	Unique/Rare Spice (3)	Maluku Isles	Most of Indonesia, Madagascar
Nutmeg & Mace	Modifier/Rare Spice (3)	Banda Isles	1800s: British Colonies in India and Africa

1. I want to look into the place of Fennel and Coriander as spices. They are incredibly common across Eurasia so far as I am aware, and I have never heard of them being traded in huge quantities. I need to do more research on their role in this time, but if they don't fit, the seed-spice grouping might need a rework, unless other spices can be found to fit that group well.
2. I don't really know where ginger should go in this list. I think having it be a bark spice largely fits its role in the economic ladder here, and grouping largely overlaps with cinnamon in the bark spices. It doesn't make sense as a name, though. I've considered that it could be unique or even a medicament - but then most spices are considered medicinal in this period and introducing it as a unique doesn't seem like the right move. Unique spices should be limited as much as possible, especially to those of paramount importance.
3. Personally, I recommend grouping nutmeg and cloves as the highest value spices, (Rare being my working group name, but not a good one) if the Banda Isles are represented.

Number of Goods based on Grouping​

Unfortunately, this grouping still results in a quite a few goods. I'd like to explore possible ways I can think of to reduce that, and what impact that would have. Even with the lower numbers, I believe it could be acceptable, if that's the compromise that needs to be made.

Scenario	Number of Goods	Notes
Every spice separate	15	This is a bad idea, spices in the same market niche no longer compete
All proposed Uniques are made unique	7
As above, but Vanilla is a bark spice	6	Vanilla now competes with cinnamon, which is odd, but would probably be an acceptable abstraction as cinnamon is Asian while Vanilla is American. Likely the best minimum without significant compromise.
As above, but Chili is a fruit spice	5	Chili would probably not be as valuable as it would need to compete with peppers. The grouping would be strange, but if the values of pepper and Chili are close in the period, it might be the best minimum.
As above, but cloves/aromatics are folded into another category or made a modifier	4	A modifier might be acceptable, but folding cloves into another grouping reduces one of the most influential spices in history and makes locations it grows in far less valuable than they should be.
As above, but saffron is folded into another category or made a modifier	3	Dilutes the value of Asian/American markets for Europeans due to local production of Saffron. Putting it in the largely Eurasian "Seed spices" mixes lower priced spices with Saffron, one of the most expensive, even more so with the Black Death during the game period.
Current System	1	All the previous issues + no variation in price potential

Why not have every spice be a separate good?

1. Historically, some spices replaced others as powers competed to source and sell spices that could replace those of their competitors. The peppers all being separate would mean there's no reason to get cheap black pepper and undermine your rivals selling long pepper. Having them grouped gives them context.
2. Any production buildings using spices (If they exist) would have to account for every spice. I realize that this is also the case with this proposed system, but I believe the lower numbers are more manageable, while the benefits to gameplay are pronounced enough to probably make it worth it.
3. The developers have stated that they want to abstract the good and not represent all of them separately

Why not use a regional spice system?
I'm aware that there is/was a large call for regional spices, If you followed my points in the Indonesia thread, you're likely familiar what I have to say, but for those who did not follow, I'll briefly summarize:

1. Looking at the table above, there are very few regional groupings that do not overlap with others. This forces either:
   1. Incredibly granular groupings, to the point they might as well all be separate spice goods (See above for why that's a bad option)
   2. Incredibly broad groupings that lose out on granularity and cause higher valued spices in a region to share with lower-value spices. This also means that playing in that region, all spice nodes are equal and there's no reason to place higher strategic value on certain locations which historically grew more valuable spices. Intra-regional trade of spice doesn't really matter under this system.
   3. Dividing a spice's locations among multiple regions, such as having Cinnamon in both Indian and South-East Asian spice goods. Or having saffron in both European and Iranian spices.
2. Some spices that competed historically no longer would in the game. Looking in particular at the peppers, Melegueta pepper (An "African spice" under a regional grouping) has no connection to the niche it shared with black pepper (An "Indian Spice') or long pepper (An "Indonesian spice").

What's missing from the current list?

1. Probably some spices. I looked at a good number, but I think the spices represented need a few qualities, and this list covered most of those that do fit (I want to do a little more digging on trade in fennel and coriander in this timeperiod to see if they fit these criteria):
   1. Globally traded. Looking at the goods added to the game so far, they're all traded globally for at least some portion of their history during the game period rather than just regionally.
   2. High Impact. A spice that's widely available across most of Eurasia and doesn't get traded a large amount probably isn't a good fit for a resource.
   3. Is it a Spice. I guess definitions of this can vary, but I think expense and whether or not it's an additive are decent indicators of this.
2. The ranges of some of the spices could definitely be improved. I didn't get too specific and find exact locations for these goods, for one, but more importantly, I probably missed some ranges where the spices grew as I just did a cursory search for studies. This goes double for later Regions, and you will see that there's definitely a lot missing, there.

What downsides are there for this system, in my eyes?
The main downside in my mind is that groupings inherently abstract pricing, and lock certain spices prices together.
This seems like an acceptable abstraction to me. The only better way of doing this would be to have separate goods which still had some sort of group relationship in pricing code so that they could influence one-another - which sounds like a tall ask for this stage in development and may be too granular. This seems like it would drive enough interesting and dynamic gameplay while not being overbearing. Finally, whether or not this system would work with any production methods that use spice is a mystery to me. I suppose we will have to wait for an example in order to see if it would.

Thank you for reading, I am curious to hear what people think and what you all can find to add to this proposal.

important to mention this proposal also:

I like this idea, but I think there's a good case for grouping slightly differently. First of all, pepper is the spice of all spices and Europeans named many other things after it for a reason. Melegueta peppers, chili peppers, etc. were all named that way because the 'spiciness/piquant quality/pungency' of pepper was the thing that was highly sought after, and people in the period categorised them together as a result.

So, if we think about how the game mechanics work in terms of class demand for particular goods, it would make more sense to bundle 'Piquant Spices' together. The elite want pepper, but they will take melegueta or chilis in its place. It's just a shame we can't have different qualities attached to different locations.

What you have labelled seed spices could be called that, or we could also have a category for common, relatively easy to grow spices with a wide distribution. Call it 'Common Spices', say.

Finally, we could have a good/category that represents the rare, high grade spices that are highly specific in their distribution. Cloves, nutmeg, cinnamon, saffron etc. These could be Rare Aromatics.

With these three categories I think you could have a pretty functional representation within the market dynamics. Pepper being its own beast, with its imitators attempting to cash in on that specific demand (Piquant Spices). A relatively widespread distribution of every day spices (Common Spices) without diminishing the demand for the rarer stuff. A few special locations producing the very rare and therefore highly valuable spices that were the lifeblood of the spice trade, excluding King Pepper (Rare Aromatics/Spices).

Edit: worth adding that I think this scheme would best reflect how at least Europeans grouped these spices in the period. Cloves, nutmeg, cinammon, etc. are fairly interchangeable as aromatic demonstrations of your capacity to serve rare and exotic food to your guests. Fennel just isn't going to cut it in the same way though!

Here a bit different groping was proposed, not really related to biological factors but to their usage and how they were perceived by people.

And tbh I like the group names Piquant, Common and Aromatics more than Bark, Seed and Fruit

 

[LordThanatos]

Here a bit different groping was proposed, not really related to spices themselves but to their usage.

I largely agree with the names, and it does make sense if people like it more than the other names. Seed-spices translate to common spices well (though common spices is a little strange to see on a map), as do fruit-spices to piquants.

The main issue I have is with the aromatics. Namely because of the issues I've already highlighted with putting saffron and cloves in the same category as any other spice. Perhaps it works if it's just the three rarest, most expensive spices - saffron, cloves and nutmeg. Cinnamon might be expensive, but it doesn't quite make the cut when compared to the other and it's far more widely produced than any of the three.

Rather I'd put cinnamon, ginger, sassafras and similar spices in an aromatic category, while the three most expensive spices are either separate or in a category of their own - with saffron only produced in maybe one province for each of the regions it grows in to show its scarcity and allow the Indonesia spices to be of primary importance, while making saffron-producing locations incredibly valuable.

Spice Groupings​

Spice	Proposed Good	Starting Regions	Later Regions
Fennel	Common Spice	Europe, Asia	1500s: Americas
Coriander	Common Spice	Mediterranean Europe	1500s: Americas
Cumin	Common Spice	Eastern Mediterranean, Central/SW Asia	1500s: Americas
Mustard	Common Spice	Europe (Dijon in particular), Africa, Asia	1500s: Americas
Anise	Common Spice	Europe, SW Asia
Star Anise	Common Spice	SE Asia
Allspice	Common Spice/Aromatic Spice	Central America, Caribbean
Cinnamon	Aromatic Spice	Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines
Cassia	Aromatic Spice	China, Vietnam
Ginger	Aromatic Spice	South Asia, Indonesia, Polynesia
Sassafras	Aromatic Spice	East Coast - North America
Cardamom	Aromatic Spice	India, Indonesia
Vanilla	Unique/Aromatic Spice	Central America	1800s: Tahiti, Madagascar, Reunion, Indonesia
Black Pepper	Piquant Spice	India
Long Pepper	Piquant Spice	Indonesia
Melegueta Pepper	Piquant Spice	West Africa
West African Peppers	Piquant Spice	West Africa
Chili Pepper	Unique/Piquant Spice	Central/South America	1500s: Africa, Asia, Pacific Islands
Saffron	Unique/Rare Spice	Kashmir, Spain, France, Rhodes, Khorasan (Iran), Essex (England), Krems (Austria), L'Aquila, Enna (Italy)	1600s: Pennsylvania (North America), 1700s: Kozani (Greece)
Cloves	Unique/Rare Spice	Maluku Isles	Most of Indonesia, Madagascar
Nutmeg & Mace	Modifier/Rare Spice	Banda Isles	1800s: British Colonies in India and Africa

Currently 20 spices are represented (Though honestly Common spice covers most regional herbs and spices, and should be represented as such. It could represent several hundred plants)
For those interested in what spices are, I've added Anise to the common/seed spices.

Number of Goods​

Scenario	Common Spices Exist	Piquants Separate to Aromatics	Chili Group	Vanilla Group	Saffron Group	Cloves Group	# of Goods
1	Yes	Yes	Unique	Unique	Unique	Unique	7
2	Yes	Yes	Piquants	Unique	Unique	Unique	6
3	No	Yes	Piquants	Unique	Unique	Unique	5
4	Yes	Yes	Piquants	Aromatics	Unique	Unique	5
5	No	Yes	Piquants	Aromatics	Unique	Unique	4
6	Yes	Yes	Piquants	Aromatics	Rare	Rare	4
7	No	Yes	Piquants	Aromatics	Rare	Rare	3
8	No	No	Aromatics	Aromatics	Rare	Rare	2
9	No	Yes	Piquants	Aromatics	Aromatics	Aromatics	2

I've expanded the way I've counted goods to better represent some of the options available if the number needs to be reduced from the ideal. The table is in roughly the best-worst order in my opinion, apart from that I actually prefer scenario 2 onward due to chili and pepper competing on some level during this period.
As you can see, there's no real benefit to the number of goods over the other naming scheme - but some spices do fit better, particularly ginger. Ultimately I think it's up to user taste which naming scheme is better.

Grouped Goods with Ranges​

Good	Starting Regions
Common Spice	Europe, Asia, Central America (Likely America in general and Africa, once fitting spices are found)
Aromatic Spice	SE Asia, India, Indonesia, a small amount in Polynesia and NE America (+Central America if including vanilla)
Piquant Spice	India, Indonesia, West Africa (+Central America if including chili)
Rare Spice (If used over uniques)	Maluku Isles, Banda Isles, Smaller amounts in centers of Saffron production.

Rare and Aromatic spices are working names, and a better name would be appreciated for at least one of them. So we can have aromatics, and something else. If other names come up, I'd love to see discussion around what feels best to represent the categories and appear in-game.

 

[Atromb]

I largely agree with the names, and it does make sense if people like it more than the other names. Seed-spices translate to common spices well, as do fruit-spices to piquants.

The main issue I have is with the aromatics. Namely because of the issues I've already highlighted with putting saffron and cloves in the same category as any other spice. Perhaps it works if it's just the three rarest, most expensive spices - saffron, cloves and nutmeg, but cinnamon might be expensive, but it doesn't quite make the cut those other three do and it's far more widely produced than any of the three.

Rather I'd put cinnamon, ginger and sassafras in an aromatic category, while the three most expensive spices are either separate or in a category of their own - with saffron only produced in maybe one province for each of the regions it grows in to show its scarcity and allow the Indonesia spices to be of primary importance, while making saffron-producing locations incredibly valuable.

It results in 7 goods if all uniques are unique, 4 if rare spices are grouped into a category, and 3 if rare spices are folded into aromatics. Currently 20 spices are represented (Though honestly Common spice covers most regional herbs and spices, and should be represented as such. It could represent several hundred plants)

For illustration, here's what that might look like:

Spice	Proposed Good	Region	Later Regions
Fennel	Common Spice	Europe, Asia	1500s: Americas
Coriander	Common Spice	Mediterranean Europe	1500s: Americas
Cumin	Common Spice	Eastern Mediterranean, Central/SW Asia	1500s: Americas
Mustard	Common Spice	Europe (Dijon in particular), Africa, Asia	America
Anise	Common Spice	Europe, SW Asia
Star Anise	Common Spice	SE Asia
Allspice	Common Spice/Aromatic Spice	Central America, Caribbean
Cinnamon	Aromatic Spice	Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines
Cassia	Aromatic Spice	China, Vietnam
Ginger	Aromatic Spice	South Asia, Indonesia, Polynesia
Sassafras	Aromatic Spice	East Coast - North America
Vanilla	Unique/Aromatic Spice	Central America	1800s: Polynesia, Madagascar, Reunion, Indonesia
Black Pepper	Piquant Spice	India
Long Pepper	Piquant Spice	Indonesia
Cardamom	Piquant Spice	India, Indonesia
Melegueta Pepper	Piquant Spice	West Africa
Chili Pepper	Unique/Piquant Spice	Central/South America	1500s: Africa, Asia, Pacific Islands
Saffron	Unique/Rare Spice	Iran, Spain, France, Greece (Especially Rhodes), England, Austria (Maybe a location or two in each.)	1600s: North America
Cloves	Unique/Rare Spice	Maluku Isles	Most of Indonesia, Madagascar
Nutmeg & Mace	Modifier/Rare Spice	Banda Isles	1800s: British Colonies in India and Africa

(For those interested, I've added Anise to the common/seed spices.)

Price wise wouldn't it make more sense to group vanilla with 'rare spices' rather than with 'aromatics'?

 

[LordThanatos]

Price wise wouldn't it make more sense to group vanilla with 'rare spices' rather than with 'aromatics'?

It might. I've just been trying to find a price for it at the timeperiods depicted by the game. I know it lost a lot of demand right after the conquest of Mexico, then steadily gained in price as the Europeans took to the flavour, until becoming the second most expensive in modern times. I just don't know if it fits that category yet and I've not read anything about incredible prices for it until the 1800s when demand finally seems to have outstripped the supply which couldn't grow outside of Central America.

 

[jfgkenya11]

What do you mean "more"? Goods don't have units attached to them, and it seems to me to be pretty silly to decide that one unit of goods represents the same physical quantity of goods for all goods. Far better to say that, for example. 1 unit of salt is one ton, 1 unit of spices is 1 pound, and one unit of jewelry is one ounce (or whatever numbers end up making sense).

Non-standardized units of goods works until you consider that the game has a shipping system, where merchant capacity is limited. Therefore, 1 unit of goods should probably represent 1 "boatload" or some such quantity. This was my assumption. A boatload of gold is much more valuable than a boatload of fur, but they require the same amount of merchant capacity.

This is all the more reason to have different spices represented rather than just using production output modifiers. Some spices should be much more profitable to ship than others, and this should be because of their price per boatload. We know that shipping has a cost in Project Caesar.

 

[coconutboat]

I'm definitely lacking good. comprehensive papers for Intra-Asian trade in spices, so I'd love to get some more information on trade and centers of production in this time period in all three. I'm currently of the opinion that all gingers, that is spices in the the family all three share - Zingiberaceae should be treated as the same good, at least for game purposes. They're in roughly the same region and fill the same economic niche. That might be an opinion based in ignorance, though. If anyone can give good reasons for a split, I'm interested to hear it and what you propose.

The best I could find are these Wikipedia pages and this one paper I skimmed for 5 seconds:

1. MAJAPAHIT TAX (UPETI)IN IMPROVING THE ECONOMY IN THE AUTONOMY ERA: https://jkh.unram.ac.id/index.php/jkh/article/view/121/76
2. Trading Partner section of a Wikipedia article with lists of Majapahit's import and export products in 10th-12th century, and a map of Inscriptions related to trading: https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perdagangan_internasional_zaman_Jawa_Kuno#Mitra_dagang

These rhizome spices are used for the similar purposes as jamu, Indian and Chinese herbal drinks, and bumbu (seasonings). Turmeric is used for Hindu rituals but I don't know how they were used in 1337 in Hindu kingdoms, I support grouping rhizome spices as a category, but this category of spices overlaps with medicaments because they are used both as food and medicine (and so does peppers and other spices) so I don't know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To add more chaos, there's ginseng. It's considered root though, not rhizome. Mostly only used in China and Korea for herbal medicine. But I add them into my chicken soup and they taste...alright. I assume it makes me healthy.

Even more chaos, having a category of trade goods like this:

1. Soybeans: Raw soybean, tofu, tempeh, fermented beans (miso, natto, gochujang, tauco)
2. Fisheries: Saltwater fish, freshwater fish, shrimp, sea cucumbers, shrimp paste (Nusantaran kingdoms use this a lot and was also given as tributes, for example Majapahit received it from Banjar, Sunda received it from Cirebon, etc)
3. Etc etc I've become too hungry to type more examples. And no, I'm not crazy. This suggestions are for like...EU6 or China Universalis 7 when BRICS has taken over everything

 

[Atromb]

The best I could find are these Wikipedia pages and this one paper I skimmed for 5 seconds:

1. MAJAPAHIT TAX (UPETI)IN IMPROVING THE ECONOMY IN THE AUTONOMY ERA: https://jkh.unram.ac.id/index.php/jkh/article/view/121/76
2. Trading Partner section of a Wikipedia article with lists of Majapahit's import and export products in 10th-12th century, and a map of Inscriptions related to trading: https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perdagangan_internasional_zaman_Jawa_Kuno#Mitra_dagang

These rhizome spices are used for the similar purposes as jamu, Indian and Chinese herbal drinks, and bumbu (seasonings). Turmeric is used for Hindu rituals but I don't know how they were used in 1337 in Hindu kingdoms, I support grouping rhizome spices as a category, but this category of spices overlaps with medicaments because they are used both as food and medicine (and so does peppers and other spices) so I don't know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To add more chaos, there's ginseng. It's considered root though, not rhizome. Mostly only used in China and Korea for herbal medicine. But I add them into my chicken soup and they taste...alright. I assume it makes me healthy.

Even more chaos, having a category of trade goods like this:

1. Soybeans: Raw soybean, tofu, tempeh, fermented beans (miso, natto, gochujang, tauco)
2. Fisheries: Saltwater fish, freshwater fish, shrimp, sea cucumbers, shrimp paste (Nusantaran kingdoms use this a lot and was also given as tributes, for example Majapahit received it from Banjar, Sunda received it from Cirebon, etc)
3. Etc etc I've become too hungry to type more examples. And no, I'm not crazy. This suggestions are for like...EU6 or China Universalis 7 when BRICS has taken over everything

Soybeans, legumes and fish are already trade goods, not sure why you would need them further divided, that would be like dividing cows, goats, pigs and chikens.

 

[coconutboat]

Soybeans, legumes and fish are already trade goods, not sure why you would need them further divided, that would be like dividing cows, goats, pigs and chikens.

It's for EU6

 

[fraughtGYRE]

Would it be reasonable to have a "Flavorings" good that represents the low-value spices and similar things? Coriander, parsley, even hops.
Also from a strictly botanical perspective vanilla makes more sense as a fruit spice, though if the only goal is to ensure comparable goods compete with each other, I can see why you'd want to group it with cinnamon.
I'm generally in favor of more goods of course (I kind of want a "Narcotics" one for coca and khat, etc.) so a tripartite division would be better than nothing

 

[FleetingRain]

Couldn't you name rare spices as Exotic Spices?

 

[Mef]

Couldn't you name rare spices as Exotic Spices?

But if you're producing them, they're not exactly exotic to you, are they?

 

[Sirbab]

If good substitution doesn't exist for needs, I support the idea of a building that converts raw spices of different types into a usable generic product.
But I feel like good substitution is a far more elegant solution, that way we can represent all the spices we want and just have them be used in different amounts.