Thinking about new playthroughs

[jhhowell]

I'm not imminently planning on dropping my current games, but I am getting quite annoyed at the religious secret societies, and I see in the game rules that I can disable those whenever I do start a new game. So I've started thinking about interesting things to do.

1. Ethiopia - their cultural troops are light infantry, terrain is mountains, there are some Silk Road provinces in Socotra and Yemen as long term goals. But what religion is playable here? Miaphysite permanently has terrible MA, and I'd be neither able nor willing to paint the map all the way to Antioch to fix that. Switch to Orthodox and rely on the AI Byzantines not screwing up too badly? Catholic, which sometimes has high MA, but at least as often has zero and heresies covering France, Germany, and Italy? In either case, MA would be entirely out of my hands.
2. Take a Polish culture ruler, convert to Romuva (would have to be by using Faith education on the heir, I think), expand into Lithuania, and do a nice tall reformed Romuva game. Should be pretty straightforward, like my Norse Germanic game but less trivial since boats cost real money and can't sail up rivers. But like that Norse game, getting to Imperial Administration and banning all vassal wars would take a very long time and the vassals would probably have gone nuts with map-painting by then.
3. West Africa? Another light infantry area, but without terrain that they're good in. Reforming the religion should be possible but looks like it would require more expanding than I'd prefer. Trade posts should help with money (not sure raiding would accomplish much in that part of the world).
4. Some sort of elaborate double culture flipping thing, aiming to eventually see Britain become English? Or just play Welsh characters and try to survive?

My past games have had either melee-focused (Norse, Italian) or very bad (Persian, Greek) cultural troops, so the aim would be to do something skirmish-focused. Thus #2 aiming for Polish instead of the more natural Lithuanian. Not really looking at Slavic religion since reforming requires very wide expansion.

I never really got the hang of nomads, so that could be another option. My existing nomad save surely has the default secret societies enabled setting, but I don't think I got too far into it, no big loss to start over. And as I recall religion in general doesn't matter as much for them, so maybe that save is usable anyway.

Right now I'm leaning towards #2, unless there's something I'm missing that would make #1 feasible. And of course, "Why not both?" is certainly on the table.

 

[Sanvone]

1. Miaphysite has the same problem I encountered in my AAR as Orthodox, so the answer is also the same. Use Monastic Society to convert provinces.. I would be more worried about having even less content for that religion than Orthodoxy has. At least in Ethiopia you have African rains and you could start as Tribal down south to expend west instead of North. Could be fun to use what little feature as Christian you have and keep sending Priests to Proselytize African pagans to assemble swarm of allies to fend off big Muslim blobs. Or play Pagan/Christian game for access to their Warrior Lodge (Fetishes) + regular Christian goodies (Disinheriting Sons, cheap Feast+Fair for prosperity, Having Monastic Tutor to pump all children with +stats event. Was thinking about something like that lately - being in Warrior Lodge to keep recruiting children, while they have NPC Monastic Guardians seems good.

2. You can change religion quickly by taking wife/concubine and converting to their faith. Baltic is fun place to set Merchant Republic. I think it is easier to remain there with vassal's not getting out of hand because Novgorod/Nomads will probably blob on one side and you can have Roman Empires both to the west and south (depending on start dates). But if want to play within Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth borders then yea - you are quite big by then. If you wish to push Nomads back early it will get ugly cause Romuvans prefer fighting in forest so you will be missing those plain bonuses from Slavic warrior's lodge. On other hand you have Light Cavalry retinues and Cultural building as West Slavic culture, which is good choice against Khaganates.

3. Never played there so not much I can tell you. Have experience with fighting with Light Infantry en masse though. So it is definetely doable. Maybe try diplomatic run as tribal? Not many people mention it, but as really poor nations having big family is better/quicker to get rolling. One of my more memorable Gilan into Persia games was when I was getting alliance with each remaining baron level Persian ruler (each providing between 300-500 troops). As each ally will help you with 100% of his holding levies I was suprised how quickly we get quite the Zoroastrian army going. Just remember to start calling to war from top to bottom (you can fix it but it's just less clicking to avoid barons becoming part of their liege entering the war). Children also cost less gold wise after you acquired wife.

4. On topic of Welsh I can suggest try tribal Welsh/Suomenusko outside of England. You could make New Wales in Finland/Baltic/Volga-Bolgharia. Real 3rd Rome :]. Culture gives you better Archers+Massive Volley tactic and their Warrior's Lodge gives tactic that reverts melee to skirmish again. Win-Win. Being defensive pagan also gives you extra structure providing more archers per tribe. Only real problem is that Nomads could make you cry if they charge early into melee, as Swarm Tactics will be extra effective against your archer centered strategy. And culture converting will take a while as pagan tribal. Your army will be fully Light Infantry + Archers in the end but thanks to cultural retinues you can get mix of units with better modifiers that basic Trapper retinue. Problem being there is lack of good targets as Nomads are your nightmare and long distance raiding will stink even with boats cause your troops are bad at assaulting holdings.

I been thinking about some extra playthroughs as well. Have few ideas like: Remaking Assyria as Satanist (cause all Abrahamic religions have the same demonic society), Finnish Raj (reintroducing Mammoths and checking how Crusaders will like them), Hindu Balkans (to make local conflicts even worse), mentioned Welsh Siberia, Bogomilist/Romuvan Lithuania Merchant Republic (to make use of daughters as Martial Vassals) and my best idea - Socotra as Chinese Merchant Republic . In the past had good time with Buddhist/Tibetan taking over Byzantium (Both Tibet and Anatolia are Mountainous so their LI bonuses play nicely there. With Gompa Monasteries you can fortify yourself quite nicely).

 

[jhhowell]

Bear in mind that my DLC are as per the icons under my profile - just Way of Life, Conclave, Legacy of Rome, Old Gods, and Horse Lords (the latter only because Paradox gave it away for a brief time in that post-CK2, pre-CK3 interval). No monastic societies, warrior lodges, playable merchant republics, etc.

I do recall Gotland being one of the prime MR sites, though. The trick would be keeping them from going crazy and conquering everything in sight, as MRs so often do. Ragusa made a real mess of the Bosnia/Serbia region in the first couple decades of my Byzantine game before I could pass the vassal war bans to shut them down - and even now, one of the patrician families rules an inland count-tier city just outside my de jure borders and regularly smacks Venice around for trading post locations.

Sounds like Ethiopia would be pretty questionable without all the DLC abilities you mention.

The Romuva thing seems doable. Probably. I'd forgotten about the wife-conversion method, which would definitely help. I'm not inclined to push into the steppe, I just wouldn't want to be eaten by the nomads. I don't often see Khazars (or whoever) that far west and north, so I think I could manage. The trick would be the vassal-constraining blobs. I don't really see any of the three you mention forming or doing well. AI Byzantium has only prospered in one of my games (Arles), they're usually a total mess, gradually (or suddenly, if Jihads are active) losing Anatolia to the Big Green Blob. I don't think I've ever seen the HRE form, and East Francia/Germany tends to really struggle against the Norse. Novgorod or Kievan Rus seems hit or miss; I don't pay a ton of attention to that area, but sometimes I see something strong, sometimes I don't. Even when they're strong, it lasts less than a generation before gavelkind breaks them up again.

Speaking of Gotland, I guess the trick would be holding it as tribal for 100 years before feudalizing, so that it de jure drifts into my realm before it becomes an MR. Though there's still that long delay between feudalizing and being able to ban vassal wars... Maybe it's better to just not take it and not have a vassal MR?

Welsh Suomenusko sounds hilarious and awesome, but also quite difficult. Need to culture change a new home area with holy wars, then move and build up the new provinces. Looking at the holy site locations, I guess this would be a Welsh Estonia type of thing. Doesn't look too terrible to reform Suomenusko, not as bad as Slavic for sure.

Regarding your ideas - I noticed that one province with Assyrian culture. Seems weird but interesting. Coptic Egypt seems similarly interesting (and extremely difficult, and not really something I have the DLC to attempt). Why would your Socotran MR be Chinese in particular?

Any thoughts on some of the other game rules? I've seen people suggest increasing provincial revolt strength and/or reducing vassal limit. I think I tried the first one in a game that went nowhere once I saw revolts losing to their own revolts before they could even finish revolting. I don't think I've tried changing vassal limit settings, though. I am looking to limit AI blobbing, but not to the point that the entire world disintegrates.

 

[Sanvone]

Bear in mind that my DLC are as per the icons under my profile - just Way of Life, Conclave, Legacy of Rome, Old Gods, and Horse Lords (the latter only because Paradox gave it away for a brief time in that post-CK2, pre-CK3 interval). No monastic societies, warrior lodges, playable merchant republics, etc.

Ou. My bad. That really puts wrench into most of those plans.

The Romuva thing seems doable. Probably. I'd forgotten about the wife-conversion method, which would definitely help. I'm not inclined to push into the steppe, I just wouldn't want to be eaten by the nomads. I don't often see Khazars (or whoever) that far west and north, so I think I could manage. The trick would be the vassal-constraining blobs. I don't really see any of the three you mention forming or doing well. AI Byzantium has only prospered in one of my games (Arles), they're usually a total mess, gradually (or suddenly, if Jihads are active) losing Anatolia to the Big Green Blob. I don't think I've ever seen the HRE form, and East Francia/Germany tends to really struggle against the Norse. Novgorod or Kievan Rus seems hit or miss; I don't pay a ton of attention to that area, but sometimes I see something strong, sometimes I don't. Even when they're strong, it lasts less than a generation before gavelkind breaks them up again.

There is also converting by holding holy site (you right click on it or your own portrait - can't remember cause haven't used it in long time). One of the reasons why Jerusalem is so valuable as it allows conversion to many religions. Tribal vassals will struggle against big nomadic realms or other tribals that can resist them. During your tribal days you can also with small yearly income generate claims to revoke titles without tyranny.

Speaking of Gotland, I guess the trick would be holding it as tribal for 100 years before feudalizing, so that it de jure drifts into my realm before it becomes an MR. Though there's still that long delay between feudalizing and being able to ban vassal wars... Maybe it's better to just not take it and not have a vassal MR?

I have no opinion. It depens how much do you care about their levies.

Welsh Suomenusko sounds hilarious and awesome, but also quite difficult. Need to culture change a new home area with holy wars, then move and build up the new provinces. Looking at the holy site locations, I guess this would be a Welsh Estonia type of thing. Doesn't look too terrible to reform Suomenusko, not as bad as Slavic for sure.

But you wouldn't need to convert religion on site. After getting initial welsh culture province you just proceed with high (15+) stewardship characters to let it spread. Also means many possible allies early thanks to sharing same culture. Suomenusko exclusive feature is not exciting though (Pejiset - bear hunting).

Regarding your ideas - I noticed that one province with Assyrian culture. Seems weird but interesting. Coptic Egypt seems similarly interesting (and extremely difficult, and not really something I have the DLC to attempt). Why would your Socotran MR be Chinese in particular?

Well I created my starting point already - used console to set initial ruler of Socotra as Han Taoist and then manipulated his holdings back and forth to make him MR. Thus game generates all other families on game start. Idea is to see how much Chinese colonisation I can make with Taoist CB (quite bad cause no conquest flag) and how good are Chinese interaction if you have to rely on them.As MR you have some CB's and that naval zone is your to use and abuse (also Silkroad trade posts). This does require Jade Dragon + Merchant Republics DLC's though. Thinking about making AAR out of this yet I probably should play it cause I have close to 0 experience with playing Merchant Republics.

Any thoughts on some of the other game rules? I've seen people suggest increasing provincial revolt strength and/or reducing vassal limit. I think I tried the first one in a game that went nowhere once I saw revolts losing to their own revolts before they could even finish revolting. I don't think I've tried changing vassal limit settings, though. I am looking to limit AI blobbing, but not to the point that the entire world disintegrates.

I've mine revolt strenght on Very Powerful (x6) but kept chance of it happening on normal. I don't personally like limiting vassal limit, as it becomes hard to form empire as tribal. It does increase viability of High Diplomacy characters (outside of Norse that make great use of Diplo education for Prepared Invasions). The pro of higher revolt strenght is that whoever breaks off the blob is different culture/religion (while in limited vassal count they will remain the same thus can be vassalized). The pro of limited vassal limit is that the upper limit of levies for empire is lowered as each vassal over gives penalty. Works even better on Muslims with Decadence (that's eats into their vassal limit).

 

[jhhowell]

Ugh. Not only am I playing whack-a-mole with a permanent Catholic secret society in my Byzantine game, but now it's ruining my Arles game too. Arles is Orthodox, and moral authority just dropped like a rock since the standard Catholic Byzantine secret society converted the emperor and now the three holy sites (that AI Byzantine Empire is doing pretty well, but hasn't captured Antioch) are only partially controlled.

Time to see if I can roll a decent starting Duke of Mazovia. First attempt had stats of three 0s, a 2, and 7, don't remember what order, but doesn't matter, hard pass on that guy.

 

[jhhowell]

I'm really rusty at being tribal. It looks like the first 20 years or so are really boring, just trying to get some heirs (Groom an Heir ambition, and Family focus until at least one son is born). I'd forgotten that unreformed pagans don't have the holy war CB, so expansion is extremely limited until the first duke can switch to the Become King of Poland ambition. My recollection from the early part of my Norse game years ago was that that ambition basically lets you go ham on everyone in the de jure kingdom you're trying to form.

But until then, county conquest is the only option, which won't gain much. Though it will gain the Romuvan holy site in Prussia, which will let me convert to Romuvan and start converting my starting provinces. Since the other Polish dukes are also unreformed pagans, they won't be able to holy war me after I convert any more than I can holy war Prussia right now.

I think all I can do after taking the Romuvan holy site is just raid my neighbors for the small amounts of gold one can get from tribal provinces. It'll be a while before I have a port or the tech in it to build boats. I think that's the main reason this seems very slow and dull compared to my memory of the Norse game - Norse can go raid France, Germany, Iberia, Venice, etc. from day 1.

If I'm missing options to improve my position faster, please let me know!

I also had a momentary thought that Hungary might be an option for a different playthrough. Same light cavalry cultural troops, and the 867 start has Magyar form Hungary and settle as feudal almost immediately. On the other hand, Catholic or Orthodox are the only viable religions for Hungary, and Hungarian culture can only raid infidel neighbors, so I think the Polish Romuva plan is the correct one.

 

[jhhowell]

missing options

Holmgardr reminded me that in addition to the at-will subjugations within the de jure kingdom from the Become King of X ambition, pagans also get a once in a lifetime subjugation. So I could subjugate Prussia (Pruthenia? Whatever the game calls them). Not sure that I should, though. Ripping off a county improves my demesne, subjugating just gets me four very cranky wrong-culture wrong-religion (for now) vassals.

Or I could use it against one of the other Polish dukes? Seems a bit of a waste, using the once-in-a-lifetime subjugation on someone I'll eventually be able to use the ambition subjugations on, but an early start would be beneficial...

I think I used it on Sjaeland in my Viken-Noregr-Scandinavia game, which is not a helpful precedent in this case.

Any tips on getting more piety as a pagan? It's not a currency I've cared about in other games, but defensive pagans have that extra building that uses it, and converting costs 250 piety. Wars give a bit, though there isn't all that much warring to be done just yet, and I know Theology focus has events that give modest amounts now and then. That plus passive income over many years will have to do, unless I'm missing something.

Notes from watching the world burn elsewhere:

• Hungary gets quite a lot of event troops! Interesting...
• Socotra starts Nestorian? That would be a remarkably hard game to pull off! Though probably not too different in difficulty from the Han MR version.

 

[Thrake]

One county at a time isn't so bad, it lets you max your demesne quickly and tribal wars are very fast.

Norse don't get to raid day 1 (well, I guess it depends on your start), but in the earliest start they need to wait for an event to unlock shipyards, and only in Norse provinces.

I think it's fine to skip on family and groom an heir, it's not like pagans need a lot of help making babies with concubines.

You can increase piety by looting, fighting other faiths, I think the county conquest CB also does.

 

[Sanvone]

Holmgardr reminded me that in addition to the at-will subjugations within the de jure kingdom from the Become King of X ambition, pagans also get a once in a lifetime subjugation. So I could subjugate Prussia (Pruthenia? Whatever the game calls them). Not sure that I should, though. Ripping off a county improves my demesne, subjugating just gets me four very cranky wrong-culture wrong-religion (for now) vassals.

Was some time since I played Holmgardr but I remember that I was waiting with my once per lifetime subjugation to get a hold of whoever came on top south of Novgorod to move capital into de jure kingdom of Rus for "Become the King of Rus" as you have most of Novgorod to begin with. It helps that you can get alliance with Bjorn Ironside so you are not in the hurry to become big quickly. Allying with Kievan Norse Ruler is also pretty doable. I'm not sure but I have some recollection that changing capitals could change ambition so it might be worth experimenting to get both Novgorod and Rus quickly.
In your case I would subjugate Pruthenia - you can always revoke your vassals with claims (they are cheap as tribal and what else is your chancellor doing?), religious revocation or just simply eating that 5 years of tyranny. Sometimes you can scheme for them where having friends among your vassals help. You can also play the long game to take over with educating/marrying or just letting the opinion penalty wear off.

Or I could use it against one of the other Polish dukes? Seems a bit of a waste, using the once-in-a-lifetime subjugation on someone I'll eventually be able to use the ambition subjugations on, but an early start would be beneficial...

I would wait. Getting some kids for alliances will mean that once you start rolling you will be having easier time.

Any tips on getting more piety as a pagan? It's not a currency I've cared about in other games, but defensive pagans have that extra building that uses it, and converting costs 250 piety. Wars give a bit, though there isn't all that much warring to be done just yet, and I know Theology focus has events that give modest amounts now and then. That plus passive income over many years will have to do, unless I'm missing something.

That's a tough order. Theology with Zealous (it makes seclusion events for +100 piety twice as likely to happen) is the main thing for Pagan. Tribal feast and festivals (2nd one I think requires Holy Fury but not certain) might give you some too. The only other reliable way to keep getting extra income (instead of once of cases of granting temple/looting) is to tutor kids in your court. I think it is zealous that allows you to pray for some piety instead of intervening for some traits. So tutor bunch of not yours kids and you might get some piety extra. Almost forgot - your Council Priest can generate piety on tribal unique job. Careful with Zealous though because if you joined not your religion Warrior Lodge, you will be kicked out.

Notes from watching the world burn elsewhere:

• Hungary gets quite a lot of event troops! Interesting...
• Socotra starts Nestorian? That would be a remarkably hard game to pull off! Though probably not too different in difficulty from the Han MR version.

Hungary does have an empire dismantling potential very quickly. I think there is Arumba-Mathias-NorthernLion game on youtube where whoever played Hungary quickly conquered not only Carpathian empire but also took over Byzantines. The amount of event troops is based on holdings so the more you wait, the more you will get IRC.
Not the greatest expert on MR but from what little I tried Han MR start it seems more doable than just being feudal. You don't rely on Holy War CB but instead start eating cities by having trade posts to then war for county. Socotra does gets "African" rains event which is continuos money drain and while it does scale with income I much prefer having higher income. You also have no competition with other MR in Indian Ocean so all Silkroad posts on the coastline are yours to claim. Thus I feel MR start there is remarkably easier on top of offering you more development during peace time (when some Muslim blob consolidates). You have to tinker with Console to set such start though.

 

[jhhowell]

Norse don't get to raid day 1 (well, I guess it depends on your start)

My start dates are 867 typically, sometimes 936. I don't have Charlemagne, and my recollection of trying 1066 in my first game was that the HRE is an even more unstoppable blob there than the Abbasids are in the other starts. Plus for a pagan game, the earlier the better. Norse absolutely can raid on day 1 in the 867 start.

Thanks for the reminder about concubines. I've been playing Orthodox for too long, I guess. That should help; even found one genius 33 year old somehow available.

Just to be clear, my Holmgardr reference was about seeing them take the duchy of Memel (in the branch of the game where I took one province), which led me to wonder how they did that and rediscover the once in a lifetime subjugation CB.

I will try to get Zealous once I'm on Theology. I think I'd need to get the trait after converting to Romuva, right? Or can one adopt a new religion even if one's character is Zealous? That doesn't really make sense, but often CK2 allows things that don't make sense...

What's the deal with the event troops the marshal raises? According to the wiki, and the name of the job he's doing ("Organize raid"), they're for raiding. The ones I got are for literally anything else, but still have a one year time limit on them according to the popup when I got them. I am confused. Is there a second, non-job-specific event for event troops that are not usable for raids, and that's the event I got?

 

[Thrake]

Steward and court chaplain can also get event troops.

I think you can convert as zealous, some options are locked but I'm pretty sure I could start a cult maybe through concubine, just choose not to because it's not very RP friendly.

 

[jhhowell]

The popup message was that the marshal had raised the troops, though.

Edit: playing forward in the "just a county conquest on Chelmno, instead of subjugation on Prussia" branch of the game, proves that the Organize Raid job for the Marshal does exactly the opposite of what the game and wiki say that it does. Very frustrating!



Edit2: Aha! This is just really really confusing and clumsy. Those units don't look like they're set to raiding or can be set to raiding, but they are set to raiding. Just moved them to a neighboring county and the axe & torch icon showed up with the tooltip for how much they're looting. It's still really clumsy and of dubious value since I can't combine them with any other units, so they can't siege down even the most weakly fortified tribal holding.

 

[jhhowell]

you can always revoke your vassals with claims

How?

I was able to bribe a councilor and pass the title revocation law, and I got the claim on one of my brother's counties, which now belongs to my only son since the brother was a commander, got maimed, and died young without children (I really, really hate how deadly being a commander is in this game, and this early in the game I don't have a lot of choices). When I try to revoke, sure, the claim means there's no tyranny, but the infant count is a firm "No". Lots of minuses for "Power", though I have over 2k troops, he has 534.

Is he protected from being revoked because his county is in a regency? That doesn't make much sense, and I must have revoked counties or duchies off of children in other games, I think.

This is so damn frustrating with all the poorly documented features making the start of this playthrough like walking through quicksand. Almost nothing I do actually works as expected, and if it does work, it's in a clumsy and not very useful way like the Organize Raid troops above. I'd forget about it and go back to my Arles game, but there's no way to ban external vassal wars as a King, and my dukes are regularly beating up on the kingdom of West Francia+Aquitaine (will probably start beating up Germany and Italy too).

 

[Sanvone]

I will try to get Zealous once I'm on Theology. I think I'd need to get the trait after converting to Romuva, right? Or can one adopt a new religion even if one's character is Zealous? That doesn't really make sense, but often CK2 allows things that don't make sense...

You can get Zealous from Business focus trade route event chain (by taking a hit to opinion while siding with clergy that you brought with yourself). This way you can get it quite reliably and still be eligible for those minting events. I like to get it that way If I need it (Cause Theology can give you either it or Cynical if you don't have either). Worked really well on Zoroastrians to get it this way cause they get +20-25% levy sized from their religious feast by picking Zealous trait option.

The popup message was that the marshal had raised the troops, though.

Edit: playing forward in the "just a county conquest on Chelmno, instead of subjugation on Prussia" branch of the game, proves that the Organize Raid job for the Marshal does exactly the opposite of what the game and wiki say that it does. Very frustrating!

View attachment 1211254View attachment 1211255

Edit2: Aha! This is just really really confusing and clumsy. Those units don't look like they're set to raiding or can be set to raiding, but they are set to raiding. Just moved them to a neighboring county and the axe & torch icon showed up with the tooltip for how much they're looting. It's still really clumsy and of dubious value since I can't combine them with any other units, so they can't siege down even the most weakly fortified tribal holding.

Yea - I had the same problem in my ongoing AAR so I feel you =<. Had problem as I was setting steward and priest event troops on raiding as well but the game wouldn't let me combine them with marshal event troops. Organise raid job is kind of pointless as timers are badly set up - after initial grace period the game will keep checking every month if your event troop regiment is raiding. Which means that every 30 days you have to be not moving but actually raiding (so already looted provinces don't count). Good luck keeping track of when units were raiding to avoid getting them deleted and cordinating their movements. Even if they are not combined they should take part in assault initiated from other units present.

The real value of those event troops is due to them being exactly the same composition of troops you have (which beside levies, include retinues but also mercenaries). So you can get bunch of Light Infantry or mix with Heavy Infantry/Pikemen/Horse Archers/Heavy Cavalry. There is "strat" of remaining at war to keep stockpiling those troops (fully siege down some single county sod without friends wihtout peace) as they will keep happening every 2 years on average. Event troops do increase your levy size so each another instance of them will get bigger. If your are patient you can accumulate really ridiculous amount of troops. I don't bother with it as price of being constantly of war is suprisingly high when it comes to available events, decisions, law changes.

How?

I was able to bribe a councilor and pass the title revocation law, and I got the claim on one of my brother's counties, which now belongs to my only son since the brother was a commander, got maimed, and died young without children (I really, really hate how deadly being a commander is in this game, and this early in the game I don't have a lot of choices). When I try to revoke, sure, the claim means there's no tyranny, but the infant count is a firm "No". Lots of minuses for "Power", though I have over 2k troops, he has 534.

Is he protected from being revoked because his county is in a regency? That doesn't make much sense, and I must have revoked counties or duchies off of children in other games, I think.

This is so damn frustrating with all the poorly documented features making the start of this playthrough like walking through quicksand. Almost nothing I do actually works as expected, and if it does work, it's in a clumsy and not very useful way like the Organize Raid troops above. I'd forget about it and go back to my Arles game, but there's no way to ban external vassal wars as a King, and my dukes are regularly beating up on the kingdom of West Francia+Aquitaine (will probably start beating up Germany and Italy too).

Even if he says no you should be able to send the request. At worst he rebels alone (as no one will care about this) so you can revoke 2 other titles after defeating him and repeat the process as you still will have the initial claim on his holdings. It's just that - way to avoid tyranny. There might be some way to utilize claims in intrigues to get the title with help of other but it also might end in small war. As I remember my Tribal games with vassals I like Carousing start to get some friend and then start intrigue revoking my vassals - usually is enough. Bonus point for my friend being on council as loyalist.

Tribal starts be like that though. Norse have it the easiest with all the +martial bonuses from Berserk etc. There is something to be said about Early Intrigue Warchief that can quickly consolidate his realm with Spying focus/education - You may not care about tyranny in small kingdom as you get rid of everyone. Impaler is also great for tribals as with LI and Archers you really can and will win in skirmish. Many Pagans have also access to Satanics that benefit from high Intrigue and may help you heal missing limb, give you Cruel and some of vices are positive traits for Elective Gavelkind on candidate).

Marshall isn't so bad as both his Levy reinforcing and arrest jobs are great (as his offmap job). On other hand Spymaster is much worse IMO (only steal technology work). Adding event Even +20% Plot power never changes the situation in my experience (because you are barely at 100% with it and that doesn't really work well enough to be viable or you have 600%+ plot power and don't need). Sabotaging relations with overlord or provinces is also a meme because it never translates into substantial change of power. IMO councillors from worst to best:
Spymaster < Chancellor < Marshal=Court Chaplain<Steward.

 

[jhhowell]

You can get Zealous from Business focus trade route event chain

Ah, so Business is still useful as a small tribal realm. It's getting close to time to switch from Family, since I have a son, two daughters, and with a wife and three concubines there should be a few more kids even without extra fertility bonuses in the next 15 years or so. I was thinking Scholarship to keep boosting the awful starting tech, but Business to get zealous would also be good.

Edit: good but very buggy. My steward offered to set up three trade routes, and I took him up on the first two. By the third I was wondering if we were in a loop, where we'd progress to the point that the trade route set off, but never complete any of them. We did, so I guess I should have said yes to the third one too. Good thing I did two of them since Zealous is a 50% chance and it hit on the second one.

Good luck keeping track of when units were raiding to avoid getting them deleted

Sounds like one raid circuit of the neighbors, then disband, then. And the marshal just does levies from now on like in a feudal realm.

Even if he says no you should be able to send the request.

It was grayed out, and I think I've figured out why. It would make sense that a father and son would automatically have a non-aggression pact. Apparently half-brothers do not. I went back to the autosave, used the console to remove Maimed from the brother (with martial skill 0 he has no business leading troops - he must have been his own commander as my vassal-ally), then revoked from the brother. I was surprised that Maybe actually worked, I always thought Maybe was an alternate spelling of No in this game. Or in some contexts, an overly concise way of saying "I'll do it if you give me money" but that doesn't really apply here.

 

[jhhowell]

The more I play this Polish Romuva game, the more I appreciate how Norse Germanic is the extreme easy mode pagan option. Raiding rich coastal provinces all over the map from day 1 (867 start and later); coastal county conquest CB to gain interesting new provinces quickly (Zeeland, for example); everyone and their dog in Scandinavia is running rampant with county conquests and prepared invasions, so moral authority is pretty solid; very easy to reform the religion thanks to all of these factors.

Slavic is incredibly difficult to reform, with the holy sites scattered so widely. Romuva should be doable, but it's a small religion and MA sucks. I'll have to go nuts with temple raiding once I get to Riga and have three holy sites. I'm starting to wonder if temporarily relocating my capital and taking the king ambition for Lithuania instead of Poland would be worth it. Much weaker in the short term without my capital duchy bonuses, but might work better in the medium and long term.

I'm also noodling about some sort of Catholic Asturias game, since that's another region with light cavalry cultural troops. The AI always gets overrun by the Umayyads, but historical Asturias survived so it should be possible in game. Or maybe start in 1066, try to ignore the Big White Blob devouring most of Europe, and exploit Crusades as heavily as possible.