Tinto Maps #18 Persia & Caucasus Feedback

[Pavía]

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Maps feedback post! Today, we will be reviewing the Iranian and Caucasian regions. Let's start with the list of changes, as usual:

Spoiler: List of Changes

ADDITIONS

Added the following:

• Locations (4 + 2 Lakes + some Wastelands)
  • Khurgancha
  • Şavşat
  • Stefani
  • Ulus
• Lakes
  • Lake Çıldır
  • Lake Suğla
• Wastelands
  • Divided some Wastelands in more pieces and added more corridors.
• TAGs
  • Alastani
  • Amberd
  • Apardi
  • Ardalan
  • Arlat
  • Artaz
  • Astarabad
  • Bampur
  • Barlas
  • Besüd
  • Bitlis
  • Bohtan
  • Buleda
  • Dasni
  • Domboli
  • Esfarayen
  • Fal
  • Fuman
  • Hadhur
  • Hakkari
  • Hamadan
  • Hasbani
  • Hasnuya
  • Hillah
  • Hizan
  • Hüleguids
  • Ispahbad
  • Jalayirs
  • Jask
  • Jauni Kurban
  • Jolemark
  • Jurmanids
  • Kaitag
  • Kalat
  • Kalhor
  • Kartawi
  • Kashan
  • Kelali
  • Kerman
  • Khaf
  • Khalkhal
  • Kharan
  • Khunj
  • Khutal
  • Khuzdar
  • Kolwa
  • Kurani
  • Lahijan
  • Mazenjani
  • Merkewan
  • Merv
  • Mus
  • Negüderi
  • Qara'unas
  • Qom
  • Quhestan
  • Ranekouh
  • Rankali
  • Rasht
  • Rutul
  • Sabuli
  • Sabzevar
  • Saqiyya
  • Simsir
  • Sohri
  • Suldus
  • Tabasaran
  • Tulam
  • Ughanids
  • Vayots Dzor
  • Yasa'uri
  • Zebari
  • Zerzari
• Characters
  • bht_izz_al_din
  • bin_shap
  • bit_dia_al_din
  • dml_kalti
  • dsn_ala_al_din_kurk_ibn_ibrahim
  • egl_isa
  • hbn_abdallah_ibn_shahab_al_din_zani
  • hdr_taj_al_din_hadhur_bin_suleyman
  • hkk_xars_al_din
  • hll_ahmad_rumaythah
  • kri_muhammed
  • krm_qutb_al_din
  • ktw_shahab_al_din
  • ktw_sayf_al_din_abu_bakr
  • mkr_ghiyath_al_din_dinar
  • mzj_izz_al_din
  • mus_shams_al_din
  • orm_fulan_bin_shadi
  • orm_izz_al_din_kurdanshah
  • orm_nizam_ad_din_kaiqubad
  • orm_shadi_bin_kaiqubad
  • orm_shanba_bin_kaiqubad
  • orm_turan_shah
  • rkl_jamal_al_din_talan
  • sli_burk_ibn_izz_al_din_resu_ibn_mahmud
  • soh_husam
  • syy_shuja_al_din_abu_bakr_ramaki
  • zbr_shahab_al_din_ibn_badr_al_din
  • zrq_zeyd
  • zzr_najm_al_din
  • zzr_abdallah
  • zzr_jendah
• Cultures
  • Qashqai
• Dynasties
  • Added tons of new dynasties for the new TAGs
• Dynamic Names
  • Added some Dynamic Names

CORRECTIONS

Renamed the following:

• TAGS
  • Bulduqani to Egil
  • Mayyafariqin to Zirqan
  • Zraqi to Hazro
• Locations (only corrections. Additionally renamed all location to standardized form):
  • Yeghegnadzor to Sotk

Raw Goods

• Changed several Raw Goods as suggested

Terrain and Vegetation

• Total Review

Minorities

• Added minorities

In general terms, we were fairly happy with the current location distribution, and we only made a few minor adjustments to them. The field in which we made a more in-depth review was the starting countries, splitting up the Ilkhanate even more, based upon your suggestions. So, let's now take a look to the revised maps:

Countries

Here you have the new Iranian Thunderdome! The first map is the regular one, the second has filled wastelands where possible, and the third one is with each country coloring instead of having a version of the overlord one. This way, we think that it's more or less clear all the new countries added, where they are, and also which are the main overlords in the region.

On Friday, we will talk more about how the Ilkhanate IO works mechanically, but here you have a map preview with its members:

Dynasties

Country Ranks & Government Types

Here are a couple of maps that we don't usually show but that in this region are very relevant, since there's a very interesting mix of features present here. Any feedback about these is well received, as usual!

Locations

Provinces

Areas

Terrain

Development

Harbors

Cultures

Languages

The first map is the location language, the second is the common language of each country, and the third one is the court language.

Religions

Now with more minorities!

Raw Materials

Now, with the latest version of raw materials, which you can check here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-talks-54-12th-of-march-2025.1731164/

Markets

Now, with some additions and new coloring changes.

And that's all for today! Remember that this Friday, we will take a look at the content for Persia and the Timurids, which includes the Ilkhanate IO, and the situation The Rise of Timur. And next Monday we will have another Tinto Maps Feedback, this one for the Horn of Africa!

 

[Pavía]

Very nice map, could we also see the earthquake mapmode ?

 

[Pavía]

What are the three minority religions in Persia?

There's a mix of:
- Sunni (darker green)
- Shiite (brighter green)
- Zoroastrian (darker blue)
- Miaphysite (wine red)
- Nestorian (pink)
- Tengrism (light blue)
- Judaism (purple)
- Other (Mandean, Yazidi, etc.)

For instance, this is the religious breakdown of the Jalayirids when I hover them in the religious map mode:

 

[Pavía]

Is the population map still broken ?

Nope, it's fixed, this is my comment from the latest map feedback post:

Although we have fixed our pop editor, we want to make a general pass on all pops before any more feedback review is shared, since we have some issues regarding those errors here and there.

 

[Pavía]

I have a general question about the maps feedback. So whenever you post feedback posts of certain regions there's still input and suggestions for changes coming in. Do you consider those and continue to make changes or is the feedback post basically just on information on how it's gonna be?

Yes, we usually consider it and make further fixes (but we don't make another post to avoid getting into an infinite loop).

 

[Pavía]

Thanks so much for taking the time to go so thoroughly to my previous topography suggestions, it looks like a LOT of them made it onto this version!
Glad to see my effort wasn't in vain

Thanks for your feedback during this past year! Your terrain-related posts are among the first we check in each Tinto Maps.

 

[Pavía]

I like it! Despite the utter wasteland-riddled-mess this region is, it's really clear to read imo.
The outlines really helps distinguishing it from each other and from the wastelands, while the paper map provides a nice neutral tone to distinguish high and low access parts.
10/10 imo.

Finally the markets mapmode looks fantastic and easy to read without causing epilepsy! Thanks

Forwarding your kind comments to our UI Team, thanks!

 

[Pavía]

What culture are the Jewish pops?

Mizrahi in Baghdad and Kalīmī in Tabriz.

 

[Pavía]

Republic?!View attachment 1274361

Republic of Sarbadars, yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarba...s had a form,is not universally held, however.

 

[Pavía]

I thought Mizrahi had been replaced by Musta'arabi as it's the more historical term? Also how about the Jews of Kurdistan and Dagestan, what culture are they and what languages do they use?

The Caucasian Jews are of the Gurji culture, which has Georgian as language.

 

[Pavía]

@Pavía Could you clarify what tags are vassals of the sutayids rather than direct vassals of the Jalayirids?

This is the starting diplomatic situation of the Jalayirids:

And this is the one of the Sutayids:

(Ignore the Jalayirids and the subjects having the same colouring; that's a bug that will be fixed).

 

[Pavía]

The Aral sea doesn't appear in the climate, topography and province maps

It's there and not desiccated, I promise!

 

[Pavía]

No natural harbor at Baku?

Just added it.

 

[Pavía]

Batumi, Baku, Reyshahr, Māchūl, Quban, Sīraf, Ormani, Pasna, Gwadar and Sonamiani should all at least have some low quality natural harbours

Just added most of those.

 

[Pavía]

with diplomatic capacity a thing how stable are the set ups for the various overlords? This feels like self sabotaging

This is something we track and balance regularly. For instance, here you have the starting Diplomatic Capacity of the Jalayirids:

 

[Pavía]

Khorasani Turks seem extremely overrepresented now, I think they were already overrepresented in the original post but now you've made all of Iranian Khorasan Turkic!

I see Qashqai culture in the changelist but they are nowhere to be found on the map.

Disappointed at the lack of Tat and Udi cultures, though I suppose Udis as Lezgins is better than nothing.

Properly speaking the Adhari culture should speak Tabaristani not Persian, though Tats of course would speak Persian. This is one reason Tat culture should be separated.

Would like to see Central Asian Arabs, though I suppose they might not show up on the map.

Do the Jews of Kurdistan, Dagestan and Transoxiana have their cultures properly portrayed as Aramaic and Persian-speaking?

Not a fan of the Orthodox color change personally.

edit: grammar

Adhari and Talysh should definitely be separete from the Caspian language family they made,neither of them should be Persian.

I'm still bummed as why is Khorasani Turkic so over represented,Like they shouldn't even exist as a minority in 70% of the locations they are in right now.One quick way to fix it would be just Making Khorasani a Persian speaking culture and just have Turkmen representing Oghuz speakers in the region.Or just merging it to Tajik.

Yes, it is just ridiculous and I hope it is fixed before release. Many people have been confused by the 'Khorasani' culture, and now it seems the devs themselves are confused by it too

Dude,just look at this map of modern Persian speaking areas.Almost the whole area is Persian speaking expect for the northern parts where the historical Oghuz Turkmen community actually existed(plus some Kurds from Safavid tribal relocations that happened in the 16th century).I'm seriously starting to believe the devs are just confused by the "Khorasani" ethnonym.

You may say this map wouldn't be true for 1337,i say that the area has been continuously ruled by Oghuz dynasties and that only stopped after the Pahlavi dynasty.While there were Persian assimilation efforts by that dynasty there was no genocide,mass killings or relocations of ethnic groups,so it wouldn't make sense for this strong majority of Oghuz speakers to almost completely disappear after 50 years.

View attachment 1274489
Khorasani Turkic is really exaggerated, while Turkic penetration in Eastern Khorasan is evident in form of Aimaq and Hazara who, despite being persian-speaking by now, originate from Turko-Mongol population, Western Khorasan never was Turkified to such extent.

View attachment 1274497View attachment 1274498
Additionally, Adhari spoke language related to Talysh and Gilaki, their modern descendants are Iranian Tat language. The source of confusion is that there are two types of Tats. Caucasian Tats who speak language related to Persian and Iranian Tats who speak language related to Talysh.

It's been confirmed as an error; we'll fix it as soon as possible.