Tinto Maps #23 China Feedback

[Rhaegar1]

I really don't get how this release is going to work out. They have covered all mechanics and age now steadily eating throughout all regional and country specific flavour as well as all map feedback.

Honestly, after this week there's just a bunch of big hitter EU countries left and perhaps SE Asia if there is a tier 2 nation there.

Sure, we still have Russia and Spain to go i guess but what then, Portugal and the Dutch? Or are we going to get a media drought in the months right before release?

 

[dhfusd]

In EU5, China is represented by the Mongol Yuan dynasty. The Mongols regarded white as a sacred color, symbolizing divinity, happiness, good fortune, abundance, prosperity, and new beginnings. Therefore, I think white would be a fitting color for China.

 

[kingner]

"The name Xi'an(西安) was adopted in the early Ming dynasty; during the Yuan dynasty, it was called Fengyuan(奉元)."

That is a higher-level administrative division, called Fongyuan Road（奉元路） in the Yuan Dynasty and Xi'an Prefecture（西安府） in the Ming Dynasty. In fact, it should be renamed Chang'an（长安）, because Chang'an County（长安县） has always been here.

 

[bretjemaine]

I really don't get how this release is going to work out. They have covered all mechanics and age now steadily eating throughout all regional and country specific flavour as well as all map feedback.

Honestly, after this week there's just a bunch of big hitter EU countries left and perhaps SE Asia if there is a tier 2 nation there.

Sure, we still have Russia and Spain to go i guess but what then, Portugal and the Dutch? Or are we going to get a media drought in the months right before release?

I don't think we need map feedbacks with minor changes in the month before the release. It is not exactly the most hyping form of content.

For mechanics and flavour I'm sure the list of what they could produce if they wanted is endless.

 

[ArVass]

Can you post some 3D maps of some regions?

 

[Streamlet]

Yes, it's precisely their role in administrating the native populations in the name of the Chinese emperor that we are representing with them adopting the emperor's court language.

I mean they ruled entirely with their own native customs, the only real Chinese influence in a lot of places was receiving an official seal and title, then having to send tribute once every few years. Besides that, business was essentially identical to how it would have been without Chinese overlordship, and the tusi system was a mutually beneficial arrangement, it had little to do with local leaders "administrating the native population in the name of the Chinese emperor" unless you want to take an entirely Sinocentric point of view. It becomes more strange when you also consider that Burma, Northern Thailand, and Laos were officially designated as tusi at this time, would their court also be Chinese?

None of it screams "they all spoke Chinese in government" to me and I would suggest against that being the default interpretation.

 

[matfer13]

Sure, we still have Russia and Spain to go i guess but what then, Portugal and the Dutch? Or are we going to get a media drought in the months right before release?

We already got Russia in the TF for Muscovy and there's still like 20 countries left

 

[Merrivale]

On post-release map changes, I do believe that @Johan interacted with us a long time ago on the topic and my understanding is also that they are going to try to not do this, mainly for balance reasons. I do not have direct proof and don't have the time/inclination to do a deep search so I could be wrong.

But I do hope that they don't do post-release map changes. In every other PDS game, it is released more or less "balanced" on release, when it comes to the various nations of the world, and then the first DLC starts the process of unbalancing it by focusing heavily on one region/country. Then the power creep begins, because every DLC is adding more stuff to the region, which leaves others out. Missions/province density in EUIV, focus trees in HOI4 (and the mini-power games they've added to the majors), even in a game like Stellaris you have the ascension paths getting out of whack. Now to a degree this is unavoidable--DLCs are going to have new content and you can't do the entire world in one swoop. But it is very much avoidable when it comes to the map--the mammoth amount of work they are doing I hope is so they don't have to mess with it again in the future. Some people will be unhappy, you can't please them all, but I'm sure it will also be moddable for folks who want a jillion locations in China or India or something similar.

 

[matfer13]

so question about religion

Now that Sanjiao has only one sect that it can select, it will be not interesting to look after what sects are doing on your land. You will have nearly all of them 100 percent of the time.

Will there be a rework of Buddhist Religions?

Because why do I need to look after dozen of sects if I will just choose one and forget

Perhaps you can allow to choose two sects?

Speaking of which, why is Sanjiao even a thing if Eastern Buddhism can get both confucianism and Daoism? They also start with a way more population and even have better religious modifiers, I don't see any reason to keep being Eastern Buddhist with Korea unless I play tall in the peninsula

 

[kingner]

I want to know what changes you made to the South China Sea, and why the maritime areas have become different from the previous Indonesian feedback?

 

[Mark_Rynn]

Do Taiwan and Hainan not have any good - or at least serviceable - natural harbors?

 

[amosguito]

Why does that awkward "Lloa" become even bigger...Penghu hardly has anything to do with "Lloa", being an early Chinese land before 12th century while "Lloa" being homelands to various tribes. As mentioned in previous China thread, Penghu is considered as Ming's territory when Ming's general drove Dutch away to mainland Taiwan. Separation of Penghu from "Lloa" is very important to demonstrate the complex interaction between isolationist China and colonist European. Ignoring this will make severe harm to flavor.
Btw Taiwan really does have some decent natural harbor at the time. "Siraya" and "Basai", I would say.

 

[WolfClaw]

In the third year of the Yuan dynasty's Yanyou era (1316), Zhigu was renamed Hǎijīn Town. It became a major military stronghold and a key hub for grain transport via waterways. In the second year of the Ming dynasty's Jianwen era (1400), Prince Yan, Zhu Di, led his army south across the river at Hǎijīn Town. After ascending the throne, he renamed it "Tianjin," which means "the Heavenly/Emperor's Ford".

 

[matfer13]

Is this a rename for Cold Arid?

 

[Roger Corominas]

View attachment 1336941
Is this a rename for Cold Arid?

Yes, it was renamed with the aim to avoid potential confusions, but we are aware that it is not the scientifically accurate naming.

 

[nyetflix2]

It seems China will continue to be underrepresented in eu5 like it was in eu4 lol

Why do Korea, France, Britain Castile etc have 5x more location density than China?

How did you arrive at this figure? Korea looks like the same density. If it's more, it can't be by much. Are you including Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, Tibet, Xinjiang? Because those are not within the scope of this post and moreover were historically separate from China proper and not as relevant. The core of China has an awesome location density.

 

[soul_of_fire7007]

The density of locations：

Britain 315k km ²，267 locations (8.5 locations/10000 km ²)

France 550k km ²，450 locations (8.2 locations/10000 km ²)

Japan 375k km ²，400 locations (10.7 locations/10000 km ²)

Korea 220k km ²，144 locations (6.5 locations/10000 km ²)

China 4m km ²，1800 locations (4.5 locations/10000 km ²)

India 3.5m km ²，1200 locations (3.4 locations/10000 km ²)

China need more counties and locations!

 

[ArVass]

The density of locations：

Britain 315k km ²，267 locations (8.5 locations/10000 km ²)

France 550k km ²，450 locations (8.2 locations/10000 km ²)

Japan 375k km ²，400 locations (10.7 locations/10000 km ²)

Korea 220k km ²，144 locations (6.5 locations/10000 km ²)

China 4m km ²，1800 locations (4.5 locations/10000 km ²)

India 3.5m km ²，1200 locations (3.4 locations/10000 km ²)

So basically it's less than half, not a 5-fold difference at all

 

[soul_of_fire7007]

How did you arrive at this figure? Korea looks like the same density. If it's more, it can't be by much. Are you including Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, Tibet, Xinjiang? Because those are not within the scope of this post and moreover were historically separate from China proper and not as relevant. The core of China has an awesome location density.

In fact,location density of the core of China are also very low,less than half of Japan's and Frence's location density.

 

[nsyw]

Because we're the main characters.

One finds certain 'European aristocrats' still clinging to their moth-eaten imperial delusions, trumpeting 'we are the dramatis personae in game' whilst decrying historically accurate depictions of Chinese territorial divisions as 'nationalist fever'. The sheer audacity of their double standards is laid bare – they can't even be bothered to trot out the tired old 'game balance' justification. These frightfully ill-mannered sorts cannot proffer a single equitable alternative to balancing China beyond reducing its states. All they manage is slapping labels on chaps like some common street-corner pamphleteer.

Let it be stated plainly: none deny Europe's colonialist 'Great Achievements' or Enlightenment-era contributions. Neither does one observe interlopers vandalising European tinto talks with accusations of nationalism. These tin-eared buffoons ought to crack open a history tome – though one shan't hold one's breath, given their congenital arrogance.

The world hasn't operated according to their old golden age fantasies since the sun set on their nations, dear boys.