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He he . Also, maybe that will be the long awaited chance to revive your Japanese AAR, and thus give that user who asked for some info about it a thorough and detailed answer...?
Not possible. Would have to start form the beginning. I'll happily leave my Japanese empire AAR to be hidden among the many layers of forum's threads and rest in peace there like many soldiers and civilians do from all sides of that unfortunate conflict.
 
OK, I think I'll happily take you up on that offer! :)

But then, what exactly do you need from me? Would a models.csv file detailing differences and similarities between CORE and TRP be enough? Something like this, but obviously with more coloring.

View attachment 103598

green = no change necessary other than editing model ID such as 1944 instead of VI for instance, orange = model change necessary between TRP and CORE, red = model included in CORE but not in TRP or the other way around.)
Yes, this is what I meant. However, could you please also .rar and send me the actual JAP aircraft icons used in CORE, i.e. all the models from 12_0 to 18_x? There is something I'm not sure I fully understand, like the lack of some models (e.g. 12_0, 14_1, 14_2), which I think are there but have simply not been named.

On a second thought, you could just send me all JAP icons, from 0_0 to 28_x or whatever. In addition, it would be great if you could provide a complete table as the one in your former post but making it so that it matches the same number lines for both TP and CORE, in order to see at a glance where anything is different or missing.

For example:

### TP /// CORE

13_9 Mitsubishi F-1 /// -
14_0 Nakajima G5N Shinzan /// Mitsubishi Ki-20
14_1 Nakajima G8N Renzan /// -


Not possible. Would have to start form the beginning. I'll happily leave my Japanese empire AAR to be hidden among the many layers of forum's threads and rest in peace there like many soldiers and civilians do from all sides of that unfortunate conflict.
You know, I was simply referring to that famous e-mail and the real reply you would have given to that question (remember?) :D
 
Alright, I've started by looking at the models.csv files of TRP and CORE, and only the JAP air models at this time. Unfortunately it doesn't look good. Pretty much everything is changed between CORE and TRP in terms of model references. And there are plenty of missing and additional model references when you compare the two. I'm not sure I fully understand what's going on here, but maybe you do..?

In addition, the CORE models.csv file includes model references to infantry models whereas the TRP models.csv does not.

I've also included all JAP icons (only naval units are nation-specific) plus the generic infantry/air models.

View attachment ICONS_CORE.rar
View attachment Comp_JAP.rar

Let me know if you can work something out Titan...
 
Alright, I've started by looking at the models.csv files of TRP and CORE, and only the JAP air models at this time. Unfortunately it doesn't look good. Pretty much everything is changed between CORE and TRP in terms of model references. And there are plenty of missing and additional model references when you compare the two. I'm not sure I fully understand what's going on here, but maybe you do..?

In addition, the CORE models.csv file includes model references to infantry models whereas the TRP models.csv does not.

I've also included all JAP icons (only naval units are nation-specific) plus the generic infantry/air models.

View attachment 103824
View attachment 103825

Let me know if you can work something out Titan...
Well, it definitely doesn't look good, no :( . By the way, you've just reminded me why I sweared I would have never converted the TP icons to CORE - not that I had forgotten the reasons behind that, heh, but taking a look at those .csv files again brought back this issue to my memory in all of its harshness.

Anyway, let's take it like real men and see what could be done. The thing which I can't really wrap my head around is the lack of some models in the list - yet there actually are icons for them... What does that mean? Does, for example, the US have actual model numbers for jet/rocket interceptors like 13_7, 13_8, 13_9 in its .csv file section, unlike Japan? How does the game treat those?

Apart from the advanced jet models, though, which I can understand not having been listed because of lacking RL counterparts (although I think they might have put in at least the Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu), the thing which puzzles me the most is that there are even some apparently "basic" models lacking, namely 14_1 and 14_2 (which should be, basing myself on vanilla, Strat. bomber I and II). What gives? I'm not installing CORE just to check this, but could you please tell me how are these two models portrayed in game? Are they in but they lack their name, are they somehow "disabled" for Japan and thus not buildable, are they... hmmm? :unsure:

In summary, what I'd need i.e. I'd ask you to do, is to please prepare me a complete list of Japanese aircraft from bottom to top as you want/need them to be; basically, this means filling those mysterious (to me) gaps in the .csv file, eventually with not so accurate names, but most importantly by highlighting which model numbers correspond to what types of aircraft. For vanilla that was rather simple - 12_x is fighters, 13_x is interceptors and so on - but I'm afraid for CORE it might not be that simple (I point out again the light/medium bomber distinction which I know is in somehow, but not exactly under which form).

So, to be clear, you'd have to arrange me something like that (the aircraft types between ":::" are a guess of mine when it comes especially to 14_x and 15_x):


12_0 [name] :::Fighter:::
12_1 [name] :::Fighter:::
12_2 [name] :::Fighter:::
...
...
13_0 [name] :::Interceptor:::
13_1 [name] :::Interceptor:::
13_2 [name] :::Interceptor:::
...
...
14_0 [name] :::Light bomber:::
14_1 [name] :::Light bomber:::
14_2 [name] :::Heavy bomber:::
14_3 [name] :::Heavy bomber:::
...
15_0 [name] :::Medium bomber:::
15_1 [name] :::Medium bomber:::
...
16_0 [name] :::Naval bomber:::


This way I could concentrate on the actual icons, i.e. on adding to them the proper tags, tier numbers etc. Of course, it would be ideal if you named those which currently aren't since this way I could simply try and "adapt" my already existing icons to their CORE equivalent. If, conversely, you don't do that I'd theorethically have to create new icons basing on CORE names... and there are quite a few of them :( (provided, of course, that I can find them at all: some of them don't seem to be too popular on the web, like e.g. the Mitsubishi Ki-1...).

Even the Rapidshare download link shows only a "File not found" meanwhile, is there any other way to take a look at your hard work ?
Yeah, I can't access it myself (and it apparently doesn't even recognize my login data). This fact, however, makes me confident that it is simply a temporary issue on RS' end, so it should be ok in a matter of days or even hours (...I guess :mellow: ). If the problem isn't resolved quickly, however, I'll reupload the mod.

Glad you chose to write your first post here, also ;) .
 
Well, it definitely doesn't look good, no :( . By the way, you've just reminded me why I sweared I would have never converted the TP icons to CORE - not that I had forgotten the reasons behind that, heh, but taking a look at those .csv files again brought back this issue to my memory in all of its harshness.

Anyway, let's take it like real men and see what could be done. The thing which I can't really wrap my head around is the lack of some models in the list - yet there actually are icons for them... What does that mean? Does, for example, the US have actual model numbers for jet/rocket interceptors like 13_7, 13_8, 13_9 in its .csv file section, unlike Japan? How does the game treat those?

Apart from the advanced jet models, though, which I can understand not having been listed because of lacking RL counterparts (although I think they might have put in at least the Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu), the thing which puzzles me the most is that there are even some apparently "basic" models lacking, namely 14_1 and 14_2 (which should be, basing myself on vanilla, Strat. bomber I and II). What gives? I'm not installing CORE just to check this, but could you please tell me how are these two models portrayed in game? Are they in but they lack their name, are they somehow "disabled" for Japan and thus not buildable, are they... hmmm? :unsure:

In summary, what I'd need i.e. I'd ask you to do, is to please prepare me a complete list of Japanese aircraft from bottom to top as you want/need them to be; basically, this means filling those mysterious (to me) gaps in the .csv file, eventually with not so accurate names, but most importantly by highlighting which model numbers correspond to what types of aircraft. For vanilla that was rather simple - 12_x is fighters, 13_x is interceptors and so on - but I'm afraid for CORE it might not be that simple (I point out again the light/medium bomber distinction which I know is in somehow, but not exactly under which form).

So, to be clear, you'd have to arrange me something like that (the aircraft types between ":::" are a guess of mine when it comes especially to 14_x and 15_x):


12_0 [name] :::Fighter:::
12_1 [name] :::Fighter:::
12_2 [name] :::Fighter:::
...
...
13_0 [name] :::Interceptor:::
13_1 [name] :::Interceptor:::
13_2 [name] :::Interceptor:::
...
...
14_0 [name] :::Light bomber:::
14_1 [name] :::Light bomber:::
14_2 [name] :::Heavy bomber:::
14_3 [name] :::Heavy bomber:::
...
15_0 [name] :::Medium bomber:::
15_1 [name] :::Medium bomber:::
...
16_0 [name] :::Naval bomber:::


This way I could concentrate on the actual icons, i.e. on adding to them the proper tags, tier numbers etc. Of course, it would be ideal if you named those which currently aren't since this way I could simply try and "adapt" my already existing icons to their CORE equivalent. If, conversely, you don't do that I'd theorethically have to create new icons basing on CORE names... and there are quite a few of them :( (provided, of course, that I can find them at all: some of them don't seem to be too popular on the web, like e.g. the Mitsubishi Ki-1...).

I don't know if it's worth your trouble really. I'd say we should skip this altogether unless there is a sudden surge in demand somehow. Feels like a whole lot of work for not too many people's enjoyment... or maybe I'm just lazy? ;)
 
Apart from the advanced jet models, though, which I can understand not having been listed because of lacking RL counterparts (although I think they might have put in at least the Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu), the thing which puzzles me the most is that there are even some apparently "basic" models lacking, namely 14_1 and 14_2 (which should be, basing myself on vanilla, Strat. bomber I and II). What gives? I'm not installing CORE just to check this, but could you please tell me how are these two models portrayed in game? Are they in but they lack their name, are they somehow "disabled" for Japan and thus not buildable, are they... hmmm? :unsure:
If models are missing from the line-up within CORE, it implies that historically the country in question either did not produce these types, or the types flown have such underperforming stats that they aren't matching the model's intended performance.

This way I could concentrate on the actual icons, i.e. on adding to them the proper tags, tier numbers etc. Of course, it would be ideal if you named those which currently aren't since this way I could simply try and "adapt" my already existing icons to their CORE equivalent. If, conversely, you don't do that I'd theorethically have to create new icons basing on CORE names... and there are quite a few of them :( (provided, of course, that I can find them at all: some of them don't seem to be too popular on the web, like e.g. the Mitsubishi Ki-1...).
Likewise, we aim for the type that has best matching performance for the type in question, rather than the historically mass-produced model (which does not deliver in terms of performance as the base model type representing it's class). So we end up with some pretty obscure models, which sometimes did not go beyond the prototype stage. And as I had to cover them in terms of matching model graphics, I do know the lengths you have to go to find material, especially in terms of photos of the damn buggers... ;)
 
Yeah, i thought i should save it for something important :D. (OMG, the posts are piling up so quickly...)
Thanks for the info, let's hope RS can handle more than annoying ads.
Yes, look at those posts... you've already doubled their count in no time! :eek:

;)

As for the link, I'll wait until the weekend is over. If it's still not working by the beginning of the next week, I'll re-up the TP on another site.


I don't know if it's worth your trouble really. I'd say we should skip this altogether unless there is a sudden surge in demand somehow. Feels like a whole lot of work for not too many people's enjoyment... or maybe I'm just lazy?

As for the demand surge, I know about a couple of people who'd be happy about this, and they are Hister, Epaminondas, cyberpunkdreams and maybe some more - but, generally speaking, not really what you'd define a "horde" of people. :mellow:

The real problem, unfortunately, is that there are so many discrepancies between the TP and CORE... As you've seen by yourself now, even the adaptation of a single aircraft set for one country (thus, not to speak about the navy and the army) would be a quite long and tricky task; and Hagar himself gives a good insight of that.

So, not impossible but a long work which would require a very special dedication to be done properly, as it would most probably take even more time it took me for making the original TP (which, believe me, says it all)...


If models are missing from the line-up within CORE, it implies that historically the country in question either did not produce these types, or the types flown have such underperforming stats that they aren't matching the model's intended performance.

Likewise, we aim for the type that has best matching performance for the type in question, rather than the historically mass-produced model (which does not deliver in terms of performance as the base model type representing it's class). So we end up with some pretty obscure models, which sometimes did not go beyond the prototype stage. And as I had to cover them in terms of matching model graphics, I do know the lengths you have to go to find material, especially in terms of photos of the damn buggers...
Aye, thank you, Hagar. The problem for me isn't as much related to pictures, which wouldn't be too difficult to find (at least in many cases); the real obstacle are aircraft drawings, even more so since it's about top-view ones.

Of course, the solution here would be to use a generic model for the not-to-be-found ones, and actual TP icons for the models which have a match... but this would be kind of a compromise solution, and I'm normally for either doing a thing as best as I can or not doing it at all.
 
As for the demand surge, I know about a couple of people who'd be happy about this, and they are Hister, Epaminondas, cyberpunkdreams and maybe some more - but, generally speaking, not really what you'd define a "horde" of people.

I would have you know that on Saturday evenings Epaminondas oft constitutes a horde all by himself.

I'm normally for either doing a thing as best as I can or not doing it at all.

You are indeed, and we're very grateful for it. And in this light drafting a new set of aircraft icons really does needs to be viewed as a cost-benefit exercise.

On the benefit side, I reckon its 'icongraphy' is the only facet of CORE that doesn't far outshine the competition. So bringing that up to your standard would be a real gift to all CORE players.

On the cost side, the model research has already been done by the CORE team and I applaud their decision to leave fallow those slots that weren't historically filled by adequately performing aircraft. This should have an upside in transferring your existing work as it means that the obscure models forced into service by some other mods to fill those positions can simply be discarded. In most cases then, the task should be as straightforward as lining your model list up against CORE's and shifting your icon across to replace the CORE one where it exists. And, since CORE prides itself on historical accuracy, where there are mismatches the necessary model images will most likely be found elsewhere in your list or be readily accessible via the web.

That's still no small undertaking, mind you, but if you want to have a crack at it at any time you know I'll be available to help.
 
I would have you know that on Saturday evenings Epaminondas oft constitutes a horde all by himself.
I know that you're not too fond of smilies, Epa, but off the top of my head there's no better way to express what I felt reading the above line than this (and, as an image is worth a thousand words, like they say): :laugh:

You are indeed, and we're very grateful for it. And in this light drafting a new set of aircraft icons really does needs to be viewed as a cost-benefit exercise.

On the benefit side, I reckon its 'icongraphy' is the only facet of CORE that doesn't far outshine the competition. So bringing that up to your standard would be a real gift to all CORE players.

On the cost side, the model research has already been done by the CORE team and I applaud their decision to leave fallow those slots that weren't historically filled by adequately performing aircraft. This should have an upside in transferring your existing work as it means that the obscure models forced into service by some other mods to fill those positions can simply be discarded. In most cases then, the task should be as straightforward as lining your model list up against CORE's and shifting your icon across to replace the CORE one where it exists. And, since CORE prides itself on historical accuracy, where there are mismatches the necessary model images will most likely be found elsewhere in your list or be readily accessible via the web.

That's still no small undertaking, mind you, but if you want to have a crack at it at any time you know I'll be available to help.
Thanks for the very kind words. As a matter of fact, though, the problems as I can see them are that:

1) there are many more missing aircraft models (by which term I mean the top-view drawings needed to make the icons proper) than it could seem at a quick glance at the two relative .csv files, which means that many slots would be left empty. Unless I've misunderstood what you meant (which is very likely, by the way), I'm afraid your suggested solution wouldn't fit, as porting the TP icons to CORE would leave a large deal of holes to be filled;

2) the above would also mean that the final work would feel rather incomplete for a large part, as the solution I envision for the lacking aircraft would be to simply use a dummy model (e.g. the vanilla icons I've sometimes used in the TP as well) whenever there is no real-life corresponding one to be found;

3) in any case, doing all the icons for the second time (or even just the aircraft!) would constitute a truly gigantic task I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to undertake again right now. I've already been through this once, it has been great fun to do nonetheless, I'm happy I did it eventually... but the idea of starting it all again (although not from scratch, but with many, many differences to be ironed out) sort of makes me feel like that horseman who, having unwittingly ridden across the frozen Lake Constance, died of horror when he learned what he had done. Well, maybe not that dramatic, ok, but you get the picture (pun intended).

Unfortunately, Uandwhosearmy's request - and me checking the files once again - has just confirmed what I already knew, i.e. that such an enterprise - while not impossible in itself, of course - would be a truly tough one to tackle.

Last but not least, thank you a lot also for the kind help offer. It is just this sort of things which doesn't rule out completely some kind of work on CORE models on my part sooner or later, and which I'm really grateful to you for.

§ § §

Besides, good news for all the potential downloaders of the TP: I've re-established my Rapidshare account (which had apparently been deleted without even warning me in advance...) and re-uploaded the whole stuff, updated to the latest Corrections version as it already used to be in the former RS link.

Get it from here as well as from the link in the updated first post of the thread.
 
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You're right, of course, Mr T. It's been a while since I've played CORE and I misremembered its model progression - thinking that the holes you refer to covered models that were dropped out of the production sequence and became null sets. It fact it doesn't work that way so my 'solution' doesn't even get to the starting gate.

Drat.
 
Hi, can you please make a province picture of this later on. the flag is not so important.
co28rebq2wesdcc99.jpg
Just take your time and see what you can do.
And Budapest to please
co45d49a8do4m53bh.jpg
 
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Hi, can you please make a province picture of this later on. the flag is not so important. Just take your time and see what you can do.
And Budapest to please
[/QUOTE]
Of course, [URL="http://www.sendspace.com/file/rtsgss"]here[/URL] they are!

While I was at it, I also straightened the Budapest pic a little (the original one was leaning a bit too much to the right, imho).
 
Hello Titan

I've tried downloading the pack via Rapidshare, but nothing happens. Are you sure that it's working properly?
 
Drats, you're right! It seems like they've got rid of my file even before the anticipated July shut-down for non-paying registered users (like me).

I'll find another, hopefully more reliable hosting site and I'll reupload the TP again. Thanks for pointing it out!


Edit: ok, for now (and maybe not just a while, if this one doesn't trick me) I'll use Sendspace - here's the complete Tripartite Pack (also, updated link in the OP).
 
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(sorry for the late reply)

Thank you! and thank you, by the way, for your countless and excellent sprites - they greatly enhanced my FtG playing experience! :)