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StephenT said:
How about "light infantry"? That would account for their not having any brigade attachments. Historical examples would be most colonial garrisons (such as German askaris or the King's African Rifles), Jägers, Bersaglieri, Rifle units, etc.
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Sounds like a very good idea - should we rename "Militia/Colonial Infantry' to 'Militia' as a result?
 
Either Militia, or perhaps Militia/Levies. We'd need to agree which of the current colonial troops would be upgraded to this unit type.

For Britain, I suggest the following (note; the Indian Army was trained to the same standard as the British, but deliberately kept short of heavy artillery to prevent it mutinying (again) - so Light Infantry would be a good model to use)

Guards

1st Division
2nd Division
3rd Division
4th Division
5th Division
6th Division
1st Australian Division
New Zealand Division
1st Canadian Division


Infantry

8th Division
27th Division
28th Division
29th Division
1st-12th ACF Infantry
Lancashire Regiment
Middlesex Regiment
London Regiment
South Wales Borderers
Shropshire Light Infantry


Light Infantry

1st Peshawar Division
2nd Rawalpindi Division
3rd Lahore Division
7th Meerut Division
8th Lucknow Division
Kohat/Bannu/Derajat Bde
4th Quetta Division
5th Mhow Division
6th Poona Division
9th Secunderabad Division
Burma Division
Aden Brigade
1st-14th ACF Dismounted Rifles
King's African Rifles
Rhodesia Regiment


Militia

Sudanese Levies
Nigeria Regiment
Baganda Rifles
Gold Coast Regiment
West India Regiment
 
StephenT said:
Either Militia, or perhaps Militia/Levies. We'd need to agree which of the current colonial troops would be upgraded to this unit type.
Click to expand...

Of the French units, I'd assume that their North African forces should be upgraded to Light Infantry and that the Division d'Afrique and the Division de Maroc should be Guards. The Indochinese Army would probably be 'Light Infantry' too.

As for the Germans, their forces in Deutsches Sudwestafrika and Ostafrika as well as the garrison in Kiaochow should be Light Infantry, while the troops in Kamerun would probably just be militia.
 
So, is it fitting that the light infantry is good for Commando traited leader? I suspect Lettow-Vorbeck will then get that trait.

I was going to say that we could maybe make the paratroopers be marines, and the marines would be Guards. Then make the motorised be the reservists and do away with mechanised altogether, as an infantry hard target is a bit strange. I don't see why the Guards should have a harder time damaging regular infantry than they do the reservists, and having matching HA/SA for Guards will probably not be very good for the armour.

But light infantry definitely has it's allure.
 
Time to do some comparisons:

Code: 
# Infantry
model = {
	cost 			= 6
	buildtime	 	= 90
	manpower 		= 15
	maxspeed 		= 5
	defaultorganisation 	= 35
	grounddefence 		= 2
	airdefence		= 0
	softattack		= 1
	hardattack		= 0
	airattack		= 0
	transportweight		= 10
	supplyconsumption 	= 1
	fuelconsumption		= 0
	speed_cap_art		= 4
	speed_cap_eng		= 6
	speed_cap_at		= 3
	speed_cap_aa		= 4
}

Code: 
# Militia Infantry
model = {
	cost 			= 3
	buildtime	 	= 45
	manpower 		= 5
	maxspeed 		= 4
	defaultorganisation 	= 25
	grounddefence 		= 1
	airdefence		= 0
	softattack		= 1
	hardattack		= 0
	airattack		= 0
	transportweight		= 10
	supplyconsumption 	= 0.4
	fuelconsumption		= 0
	speed_cap_art		= 4
	speed_cap_eng		= 6
	speed_cap_at		= 3
	speed_cap_aa		= 4
}

Code: 
# Light Infantry
model = {
	cost 			= 4
	buildtime	 	= 80
	manpower 		= 14
	maxspeed 		= 6
	defaultorganisation	= 35
	grounddefence 		= 2
	airdefence		= 0
	softattack		= 1
	hardattack		= 0
	airattack		= 0
	transportweight		= 8
	supplyconsumption	= 0.6
	fuelconsumption		= 0
	speed_cap_art		= 4
	speed_cap_eng		= 6
	speed_cap_at		= 3
	speed_cap_aa		= 4
}

Code: 
# Reservists
model = {
	cost 			= 5
	buildtime	 	= 85
	manpower 		= 15
	maxspeed 		= 5
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	grounddefence 		= 2
	airdefence		= 0
	softattack		= 1
	hardattack		= 0
	airattack		= 0
	transportweight		= 10
	supplyconsumption 	= 1
	fuelconsumption		= 0
	speed_cap_art		= 4
	speed_cap_eng		= 6
	speed_cap_at		= 3
	speed_cap_aa		= 4
}

# Trench Division
model = {
	cost 			= 4
	buildtime	 	= 80
	manpower 		= 15
	maxspeed 		= 5
	defaultorganisation 	= 35
	grounddefence 		= 4
	airdefence		= 0
	softattack		= 0
	hardattack		= 0
	airattack		= 0
	transportweight		= 10
	supplyconsumption 	= 1
	fuelconsumption		= 0
	speed_cap_art		= 4
	speed_cap_eng		= 6
	speed_cap_at		= 3
	speed_cap_aa		= 4
}

Code: 
# Guards Infantry
model = {
	cost 			= 8
	buildtime	 	= 160
	manpower 		= 20
	maxspeed 		= 5
	defaultorganisation 	= 40
	grounddefence 		= 3
	airdefence		= 0
	softattack		= 3
	hardattack		= 0
	airattack		= 0
	transportweight		= 10
	supplyconsumption 	= 1.3
	fuelconsumption		= 0
	speed_cap_art		= 4
	speed_cap_eng		= 6
	speed_cap_at		= 3
	speed_cap_aa		= 4
}

# Attack Division
model = {
	cost 			= 10
	buildtime	 	= 175
	manpower 		= 20
	maxspeed 		= 6
	defaultorganisation 	= 45
	grounddefence 		= 3
	airdefence		= 0
	softattack		= 4
	hardattack		= 1
	airattack		= 0
	transportweight		= 10
	supplyconsumption 	= 1.5
	fuelconsumption		= 0
	speed_cap_art		= 4
	speed_cap_eng		= 6
	speed_cap_at		= 3
	speed_cap_aa		= 4
}

Are they appropriate? Anything that should be tweaked or changed?
 
Aren't they slightly too fast?

Also, the trench division having 0 SA won't work, I think. IIRC the game won't allow it to drop below 1.

Also, I think GD is WAY too low. With those stats you'll have massive amounts of casualties/hour, and battles will be over too fast.
 
I still dont understand why trench divisions can cause no casualties. During the war, french, british and american units suffered plenty of casualties attacking Trench divisions. Maybe just reduce their movement and give them a somewhat lower soft attack value ? Say -25% compared to a normal division or similar ?
 
Gwalcmai said:
Aren't they slightly too fast?
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'They' being who? :)

Gwalcmai said:
Also, I think GD is WAY too low. With those stats you'll have massive amounts of casualties/hour, and battles will be over too fast.
Click to expand...

Is that a reference to all units or some in particular? What GD rating would be most appropriate? :)
 
Allenby said:
'They' being who? :)
Click to expand...

They being all of them. I was thinking that most mods tend to slash all infantry types to speed 3 or 4.

Is that a reference to all units or some in particular? What GD rating would be most appropriate? :)
Click to expand...

The way I understand it, GD has a chance to block the enemy attack points. So, if you have an attacker with SA of 3 and a defender with GD of 3, and a chance to block of 2/3 (that's too low, IIRC the standard value is 80%) the attacker scores one attack/hour. If two attacking divisions of 3 SA hit that defending division, all of the attacks of the second division get through, and the attackers are hitting four times per hour. So, doubled odds, casualties increase four times. Going to 3:1 odds, and the defender takes 7 hits/hour. IIRC, each hit takes out 1% strength, or thereabouts, and has a chance to be critical and take 5%. The defending division will be killed very quickly.

I really think a division should be able to take 2:1 odds without being overwhelmed by the attackers. Maybe we should make the point at which they are overwhelmed be 5:1 odds. By overwhelmed I mean that there are so many attackers that the division's defenses can't cope with all of them. The defenders will still lose, but battles take longer, there are far less casualties, and fronts are more static.

Check out Mithel's thread "The Case against Ground Defense". He actually defends removing that overwhelm point by giving everyone 999GD, but I still don't know how that works out in practice.
 
Gwalcmai said:
They being all of them. I was thinking that most mods tend to slash all infantry types to speed 3 or 4.
Click to expand...
Even the ones which remove motorised and mechanised infantry completely and make panzer units a late-war innovation, so that infantry-types are pretty much all you've got?
 
As the only mod currently doing those restrcitions is, I think, this one, then no. :) However, the fact that the fast unit types don't exist doesn't really increase the speed at which an infantry division moves on the field. In fact, as most motorisation advancements don't exist either, they should actually move slower. The way to determine the movement speed of the units should be how fast they could actually move with all their equipment historically. How much did an infantry division move in a day?
 
ptan54 said:
Schlieffen calculated 12 miles a day.

In the opening battles, some even moved 13 or 14 a day.
Click to expand...

The BEF went approximately 200 miles in 13 days during the retreat from Mons, which is about 15 miles per day (and they were under constant pressure). Those were under extreme circumstances, and I doubt they could keep it up incessantly, and I think many see von Schlieffen's estimates of the average German soldier putting in 12 miles per day as being optimistic on his part, as they began to get exhausted the further inside France they got.
 
So, optimistically, a division could cover 180Km in 10 days. If they were really pressed (and you don't always force-march divisions) a bit over 200Km in those 10 days. Anyone fancy doing a series of tests to get the divisions to have that sort of movement speed?
 
Allenby said:
....unfortunately I don't know what a kilometre is...
Click to expand...
Tsk, tsk. Pitiful. It is, obviously, 1000m. :p




While a mile is ~1600m. Which also means I did my usual oversimplifying by using 1,5 as the factor and cheated Schlieffen of one day's march.
 
Last edited:
What was the infrastructure of the provinces they were advancing through? As I understand, that has a big effect on movement speed. Also, were the provinces friendly or enemy controlled?

After all, 32km per day is rather unimpressive if you're riding in a train. :)
 
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