How about gifting someone a coffee/beer to convince him to let me use the name of his old long-dead EU2 mod?
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Pretty sure I mentioned that "for the same game" applies ie CK2 Mods only apply to CK2" Mod X for CK2 does not equal Mod X for CK3 for example (And no that is not a CK3 announcement)
So , its than correct that MEIOU&Taxes is "Grandfathered" , because 10-08-2013 is before 13-08-2013 ?
And every Mod before 13-08-2013 is also "Grandfathered" correct ?
EDIT :
CK2 Mods than are "Grandfathered" before 02-06-2014 , correct ? As the Rules were only on EUIV Subforum for month , and CK2 modders cant even see them if they dont own EUIV.
So , please give clear dates of "what" and "when" Mods are "Grandfathered" and what "Grandfathered" includes (Wikis, Blogs, Downloadlinks , Youtube channel´s, etc etc)
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All the discussion about specific mods and grandfathering aside, I've been mulling over what to post concerning these rules for awhile and with the recent attention thrown onto EK and AGOT I feel now is the time for me to post this, as I am at a point where I am contemplating if I wish to actually continue supporting my modification(s).
The rules that PI has instituted and the limitations on workshop just aren't congruent to an open and creative modding community; one which Paradox has in the past stated they do wish to encourage.
Total conversions and large scale modifications are simply too large for the Steam Workshop (without splitting up into half a dozen pieces and causing a logistical headache for whomever has to maintain all those parts), and the volume of downloads that many TCs experience generally require further financial expenditure on the part of the mod teams, who are often students or individuals that simply can't afford additional costs for a hobby. For the project I support I have already spent over 500euros over the past year and a half in costs for hosting a development repository, software license purchases and other costs related to the modification, all of which I have covered myself entirely. As a father of 2 young children with an upcoming house extension to pay off I simply cannot justify to myself any additional expenditure for hosting the mod on a premium download site or continued support for the mod itself under these rules; we cannot ask for donations, and so the community cannot support us either (note that I have no issue with financial expenditure for hobbies I enjoy, I am not asking for donations to be allowed, rather I am saying the more rules that are lumped on, and the more flak I/we take for something we're doing for fun is getting tiresome).
Total Conversions such as AGOT and Elder Kings have both provided additional sales to PDS/PI, the popularity of their related universes and the additional advertising provided to Paradox through their hosting on sites such as MODDB, blogs, forums, and the appearances of these total conversions in gaming magazines have all been for the betterment, not the detriment of Paradox Interactive; did you know that every CK2 mod that has been featured in a PC Magazine (which advertises both the mod, and CK2/Paradox Interactive) has linked not to the subforum for CK2 but to the mod's MODDB page or other external source (in the recent Witcher Kings case, to a thread on TWCenter); do you really think you've lost sales rather than gained them from that?
In the future, projects such as these will be more difficult, people are likely to be driven away to more open platforms or put off by the overly zealous restrictions, and Paradox Interactive will lose that additional, free advertising and added longevity for their products (because lets be honest, it's the mods that keep games going as long as they have).
Some individuals will claim that mods such as the Historical Immersion Project or MEIOU drive sales to EUIV and CK2, but do they? These modifications perhaps encourage users from previous versions of the mods to make purchases, but those individuals are likely to purchase future products regardless; AGOT, EK and other TCs however drive sales from new crowds toward Paradox Interactive, introducing new elements to the community and increasing Paradox Interactives popularity. By implementing such harsh restrictions, you are harming yourselves; instead of encouraging a community to grow and spread, you are promoting insularity and isolation; but you aren't just harming yourselves, you're harming the very modding community that you claim to support and love.
~ Signed, a very depressed and disillusioned Paradox fanboy/modder.
The rules that PI has instituted and the limitations on workshop just aren't congruent to an open and creative modding community; one which Paradox has in the past stated they do wish to encourage.
Total conversions and large scale modifications are simply too large for the Steam Workshop (without splitting up into half a dozen pieces and causing a logistical headache for whomever has to maintain all those parts), and the volume of downloads that many TCs experience generally require further financial expenditure on the part of the mod teams, who are often students or individuals that simply can't afford additional costs for a hobby. For the project I support I have already spent over 500euros over the past year and a half in costs for hosting a development repository, software license purchases and other costs related to the modification, all of which I have covered myself entirely. As a father of 2 young children with an upcoming house extension to pay off I simply cannot justify to myself any additional expenditure for hosting the mod on a premium download site or continued support for the mod itself under these rules; we cannot ask for donations, and so the community cannot support us either (note that I have no issue with financial expenditure for hobbies I enjoy, I am not asking for donations to be allowed, rather I am saying the more rules that are lumped on, and the more flak I/we take for something we're doing for fun is getting tiresome).
Total Conversions such as AGOT and Elder Kings have both provided additional sales to PDS/PI, the popularity of their related universes and the additional advertising provided to Paradox through their hosting on sites such as MODDB, blogs, forums, and the appearances of these total conversions in gaming magazines have all been for the betterment, not the detriment of Paradox Interactive; did you know that every CK2 mod that has been featured in a PC Magazine (which advertises both the mod, and CK2/Paradox Interactive) has linked not to the subforum for CK2 but to the mod's MODDB page or other external source (in the recent Witcher Kings case, to a thread on TWCenter); do you really think you've lost sales rather than gained them from that?
In the future, projects such as these will be more difficult, people are likely to be driven away to more open platforms or put off by the overly zealous restrictions, and Paradox Interactive will lose that additional, free advertising and added longevity for their products (because lets be honest, it's the mods that keep games going as long as they have).
Some individuals will claim that mods such as the Historical Immersion Project or MEIOU drive sales to EUIV and CK2, but do they? These modifications perhaps encourage users from previous versions of the mods to make purchases, but those individuals are likely to purchase future products regardless; AGOT, EK and other TCs however drive sales from new crowds toward Paradox Interactive, introducing new elements to the community and increasing Paradox Interactives popularity. By implementing such harsh restrictions, you are harming yourselves; instead of encouraging a community to grow and spread, you are promoting insularity and isolation; but you aren't just harming yourselves, you're harming the very modding community that you claim to support and love.
~ Signed, a very depressed and disillusioned Paradox fanboy/modder.
All the discussion about specific mods and grandfathering aside, I've been mulling over what to post concerning these rules for awhile and with the recent attention thrown onto EK and AGOT I feel now is the time for me to post this, as I am at a point where I am contemplating if I wish to actually continue supporting my modification(s).
The rules that PI has instituted and the limitations on workshop just aren't congruent to an open and creative modding community; one which Paradox has in the past stated they do wish to encourage.
Total conversions and large scale modifications are simply too large for the Steam Workshop (without splitting up into half a dozen pieces and causing a logistical headache for whomever has to maintain all those parts), and the volume of downloads that many TCs experience generally require further financial expenditure on the part of the mod teams, who are often students or individuals that simply can't afford additional costs for a hobby. For the project I support I have already spent over 500euros over the past year and a half in costs for hosting a development repository, software license purchases and other costs related to the modification, all of which I have covered myself entirely. As a father of 2 young children with an upcoming house extension to pay off I simply cannot justify to myself any additional expenditure for hosting the mod on a premium download site or continued support for the mod itself under these rules; we cannot ask for donations, and so the community cannot support us either (note that I have no issue with financial expenditure for hobbies I enjoy, I am not asking for donations to be allowed, rather I am saying the more rules that are lumped on, and the more flak I/we take for something we're doing for fun is getting tiresome).
Total Conversions such as AGOT and Elder Kings have both provided additional sales to PDS/PI, the popularity of their related universes and the additional advertising provided to Paradox through their hosting on sites such as MODDB, blogs, forums, and the appearances of these total conversions in gaming magazines have all been for the betterment, not the detriment of Paradox Interactive; did you know that every CK2 mod that has been featured in a PC Magazine (which advertises both the mod, and CK2/Paradox Interactive) has linked not to the subforum for CK2 but to the mod's MODDB page or other external source (in the recent Witcher Kings case, to a thread on TWCenter); do you really think you've lost sales rather than gained them from that?
In the future, projects such as these will be more difficult, people are likely to be driven away to more open platforms or put off by the overly zealous restrictions, and Paradox Interactive will lose that additional, free advertising and added longevity for their products (because lets be honest, it's the mods that keep games going as long as they have).
Some individuals will claim that mods such as the Historical Immersion Project or MEIOU drive sales to EUIV and CK2, but do they? These modifications perhaps encourage users from previous versions of the mods to make purchases, but those individuals are likely to purchase future products regardless; AGOT, EK and other TCs however drive sales from new crowds toward Paradox Interactive, introducing new elements to the community and increasing Paradox Interactives popularity. By implementing such harsh restrictions, you are harming yourselves; instead of encouraging a community to grow and spread, you are promoting insularity and isolation; but you aren't just harming yourselves, you're harming the very modding community that you claim to support and love.
~ Signed, a very depressed and disillusioned Paradox fanboy/modder.
This is Statement !
And 100% correct and signed !
What are you affraid of Paradox ? Pirating your Games if you have an "open" modding community ?
Thats an stupid point as every software is pirated these days , the only way you can stop this is to stop making Games ... heck even EA dont care about Modding Sites like the many many for the FIFA Series (and that Game is not even sold/made as moddable)
There are so many great modding communitys out there (the Nexus , twcenter , moddingway) and even those "big players" (EA,SEGA,2K,etc etc) have no problem or such "drastic" Rules for Modders ...
@Korbah : i feel like you : (and hopefully not thinking, because of the attention to EK or AGOT, someone want to point with finger at you because you are "grandfathered".
We are ONE Modding Community here, and we all have to live with each other and respect each other (what we mostly do
)~ Signed, a very depressed and disillusioned Paradox fanboy/modder. EOOQE
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@Korbah I am sorry you feel that way, obviously we feel differently about what the benefits are. Also note you are free to host wherever you want including ModDb if you do not plan to Advertise your mod here or the workshop.
I would think you should be able to find a free hosting site, there are many out there.
What I am hearing is that your mod is too large to be hosted on the workshop, and you are paying for hosting. I am looking at how we might be able to host user mods with the new forum software, perhaps that would alleviate the issue.
Your point about the article pointing to the ModDB page instead of here kind of makes my point for me, we want them pointing here.
@EOOQE That is the first time someone asked us to be like EA.
And I don't know why you think this is an anti-pirate initiative, A stated you are free to host the mod where ever you want. It is only anti-pirate in the most round about way, in that if you want to fully participate you would need to join this forum, we do not deceive ourselves that this in anyway prohibits a pirate from playing a mod on our game.
I would think you should be able to find a free hosting site, there are many out there.
What I am hearing is that your mod is too large to be hosted on the workshop, and you are paying for hosting. I am looking at how we might be able to host user mods with the new forum software, perhaps that would alleviate the issue.
Your point about the article pointing to the ModDB page instead of here kind of makes my point for me, we want them pointing here.
@EOOQE That is the first time someone asked us to be like EA.
And I don't know why you think this is an anti-pirate initiative, A stated you are free to host the mod where ever you want. It is only anti-pirate in the most round about way, in that if you want to fully participate you would need to join this forum, we do not deceive ourselves that this in anyway prohibits a pirate from playing a mod on our game.
Would the costs of setting up a MODDB/Nexus-style site in-house at Paradox be too prohibitive? Something tied to the accounts system here where mods are visible publicly but only downloadable if you have the game it is associated with registered?
I used to be part of an old Star Trek Armada modding website that has something similar; albeit it is based upon participation in their community (participate and you gain access to their downloads section).
@Korbah I am sorry you feel that way, obviously we feel differently about what the benefits are. Also note you are free to host wherever you want including ModDb if you do not plan to Advertise your mod here or the workshop.
I would think you should be able to find a free hosting site, there are many out there.
I am looking at how we might be able to host user mods with the new forum software, perhaps that would alleviate the issue.
@EOOQE That is the first time someone asked us to be like EA.
And thats not even a bit funny in this case to be like EA !
And i get it right im NOT allowed advertise on Steam WS and put a link to say "blog, wiki, mediafire , etc ) ??
If right i would guess, over 50% of all Ck2 and EUIV Mods most be deleted instant from WS ....
The reality is that if major mods are pushed off the main Paradox forums, it is highly likely that the community will set up their own forum infrastructure completely outside of Paradox's control. This forum would not be able to verify that people own the game, and thus people whom have pirated will be able to gain full access to these forums. On top of this, it is highly unlikely that people will be able to dedicate their full time to both forums, and thus people will likely leave the paradox forum to be active in this theoretical forum.
Is a community schism really what Paradox wants?
A vast majority of them bombard you with spam and viruses, and do not allow you to host files more than ~200 MB. ModDB is the only one to my knowlege, which is why it is popular.
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Now that's twisting words. EOOQE is essentially saying you should be ashamed to be more restrictive when it comes to (an aspect of) modding than even EA.@EOOQE That is the first time someone asked us to be like EA.
Then what purpose does it serve?
Actually no. That won't happen as long as participation in these forums is limited to owners of the game. That's exactly what Korbah is talking about - potential new customers can't participate in the forums, so the magz and news sites HAVE to direct them elsewhere. And so those magazines and news sites make the right call to do what's best and easiest for THEIR customers...
As an example, The Winter King mod for CKII will probably never get any real news coverage since there's nothing for a site to link to.
If it were allowed to have a ModDB page though, news coverage would be a possibility. But as it currently stands it simply won't happen, because basically no news site will link to a paywall.
(I'd use HIP as an example instead, but since it is a overhaul mod rather than a new scenario it isn't likely to get coverage regardless of having a ModDB page or not)
That would be a great solution, indeed. Two birds with one stone. Also, it is established that it is impossible to make Workshop increase the limit for mods? If both would be implemented, all of our complaints in this matter would be gone.
So what is the purpose of the 'no outside-hosting' rule, pray tell?
I understand this rule is to protect PDS from claims of mod creators when they use similar complaints in games, which is perfectly understandable and I fully agree with the need to have a rule like this. Yet the scope defined here is so broad that it also concerns not strictly game stuff, like composed music, art or user interface improvements. I propose that the rule is clarified. Why not allow a hybrid-like license that restricts use of such material by any party other than PDS?
Is that not exactly what you are asking for? Be able to have your own forums and host on sites open to all?
On the other hand I am trying to keep the community in one place.
I have already said many times you can go out on your own and do what you want as long as you then do not want to use our channels as well.
When you use our channels we have certain expectations about content, quality and distribution.
Steam has games exclusive to them (if you want to play EUIV you need to do so by joining steam), did this make everyone else leave steam and start their own services, or stop buying games through steam? not being sarcastic here really interested in this discussion.
Also the EA comment was very much Tongue and cheek.
I saw a ModDb page I was referred to for and EUIV mod that I found to be within the rules.
It was basically just an ad for the mod, and linked to the Workshop download, Now I would have preferred a link to the thread or forum for the mod here but it is not required, as Workshop is a valid place.
The problem is in having our legal department sign off on every disclaimer and Copyright claim, and do so every time a new version of the mod is published.
Actually I can understand the requirements of not having external forums for mods. Being perfectly honest, there's a lot of PDX games i've only bought because I wanted to get at the mods for them. And yes, I am implying that at one point in the past there were certain PDX games I played without actually purchasing. I hope that's all right to say, I own all the ones I'm playing right now of course, this was back when I didn't have a lot of money. What i'm really saying is that from personal experience I can tell you that rule 1 prohibiting external forums of the modding rules has directly caused me to make several PDX purchases where I might not have otherwise. So it's an extremely sound policy from a financial perspective.
Personally, I think one of the largest problems here is the confusion some rules and their partial enforcement create. On different subforums (with different mods), I've seen the no external links rule handled from 'No links, last warning!!!' to 'Post whatever you want, unless it's an advertisement or not conforming to other rules.'
Usually it's possible to create generic licenses covering the use of royalty free third-party material. If someone cheats on the copyright holder, you're just forced to give out his personal data (as far as your knowledge goes). Doing so would be a single investment on your end - not a investment each update. ((Disclaimer: I'm not that familiar with Swedish law, but since Sweden is a EU member and Copyright law is codified on EU-wide, the differences shouldn't be gamebreaking large.))
And now you sound exactly like you OWN every mod that is posted here !
Or what on earth have your legal department to do with my Mod for example ?
Because you think you are responsible for every content of every Mod ? What is simply not true because (what ? 99%) the Mods are not hosted on your Server.
I Am afraid you are wrong, we are responsible under law for everything on our site, given reasonable time frames to take it down.
But that is a different issue from legal documents like a copyright notice, which very much affects us and our rights to protect our IP, I think any reasonable person can see that much.