• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
...I would have preferred a link to the thread or forum for the mod here but it is not required, as Workshop is a valid place.

Why would an outside entity post a link to a thread on these forums, when said outsider is only allowed to participate by actually buying a game?

I'm not at all attacking your reasoning for requiring game registration, and I understand it, but you can't have a closed forum and then expect it to be used by people outside it.
 
I Am afraid you are wrong, we are responsible under law for everything on our site, given reasonable time frames to take it down.
But that is a different issue from legal documents like a copyright notice, which very much affects us and our rights to protect our IP, I think any reasonable person can see that much.

Sorry , but just LOL ! *dont be mad at me now*:happy:
But this makes clear that you never had asked a legal department about your rules , otherwise you would (or your lawyer had made EU-LAW-conform rules) know that there is big difference between Surface Links and Deep Links in EU LAW.
 
Would the costs of setting up a MODDB/Nexus-style site in-house at Paradox be too prohibitive? Something tied to the accounts system here where mods are visible publicly but only downloadable if you have the game it is associated with registered?
I used to be part of an old Star Trek Armada modding website that has something similar; albeit it is based upon participation in their community (participate and you gain access to their downloads section).

Just reposting this in case it was missed :ninja:
A publicly accessible site along the lines of something like the Nexus, where each mod has a page with the download and some information which is publicly viewable, but where the download itself is "greyed out" unless you're logged in with an appropriate game for the mod to me sounds like a good idea (tied in to the user database for the forums?). The rules would be complied with; only users on these forums with the legitimate game will be able to actually obtain the mod, but users who don't yet have the game will be able to view screenshots and information about said mods. It would serve to advertise the mods to gain public attention, and encourage sales of the games they are linked to to actually access them.
 
People that are trying to construe the rules as invalid do like to bring this up.
However I think it is pretty clear, and people without an agenda, have no problem understand it.

You can host your files on a publicly accessible site without the general public having access unless they know where to look. As loto ng as you only tell them where to look here or on Steam Hub you are all good. Now what is confusing about that. Obviously you are not responsible if some random person happens to randomly find the files on that site. Now if you go on other sites and give direct links to your files then you are breaking our rules and cannot advertise your mod on this site, Seams reasonable to me, I am sorry you do not find it so.

I have uploaded my mod on mediafire.com and on Steam Workshop. And previously have asked (earlier in this thread, see link below) whether it is ok to post the link to the mediafire download on Steam Workshop. I was told that it is not ok. But that is not how interpret your statement above (underlined by me): what is the difference? Many thanks for answering.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...-Edits-***&p=17059907&viewfull=1#post17059907
 
Last edited:
Is that not exactly what you are asking for? Be able to have your own forums and host on sites open to all?
On the other hand I am trying to keep the community in one place.

The problem is that unreasonable demands are being imposed. The ban on external forums I have no problem with, as Paradox is providing subforums and stickied threads for mods. But mods need services other than forums. The mod I work for, for example, has a bugtracker and uses ModDB for hosting becasue Steam Workshop does not work with download sizes larger than 200 MB and the mod I work on is hovering around 600 MB and will likely grow bigger as new art assets are added. Breaking the mod into multiple pieces presents a huge number of technical problems. Generally, if your going to restrict sites like ModDB, then large total conversion mods like EK and AGOT will be forced to either leave the Paradox forum, thus breaking the community into multiple pieces, or Paradox will have to provide hosting, which I imagine would impose quite significant bandwidth costs on Paradox.

When you use our channels we have certain expectations about content, quality and distribution.

Except the expectations on distribution is problematic for large mods that are too big for Steam Workshop.
 
All the discussion about specific mods and grandfathering aside, I've been mulling over what to post concerning these rules for awhile and with the recent attention thrown onto EK and AGOT I feel now is the time for me to post this, as I am at a point where I am contemplating if I wish to actually continue supporting my modification(s).

The rules that PI has instituted and the limitations on workshop just aren't congruent to an open and creative modding community; one which Paradox has in the past stated they do wish to encourage.
Total conversions and large scale modifications are simply too large for the Steam Workshop (without splitting up into half a dozen pieces and causing a logistical headache for whomever has to maintain all those parts), and the volume of downloads that many TCs experience generally require further financial expenditure on the part of the mod teams, who are often students or individuals that simply can't afford additional costs for a hobby. For the project I support I have already spent over 500euros over the past year and a half in costs for hosting a development repository, software license purchases and other costs related to the modification, all of which I have covered myself entirely. As a father of 2 young children with an upcoming house extension to pay off I simply cannot justify to myself any additional expenditure for hosting the mod on a premium download site or continued support for the mod itself under these rules; we cannot ask for donations, and so the community cannot support us either (note that I have no issue with financial expenditure for hobbies I enjoy, I am not asking for donations to be allowed, rather I am saying the more rules that are lumped on, and the more flak I/we take for something we're doing for fun is getting tiresome).
Total Conversions such as AGOT and Elder Kings have both provided additional sales to PDS/PI, the popularity of their related universes and the additional advertising provided to Paradox through their hosting on sites such as MODDB, blogs, forums, and the appearances of these total conversions in gaming magazines have all been for the betterment, not the detriment of Paradox Interactive; did you know that every CK2 mod that has been featured in a PC Magazine (which advertises both the mod, and CK2/Paradox Interactive) has linked not to the subforum for CK2 but to the mod's MODDB page or other external source (in the recent Witcher Kings case, to a thread on TWCenter); do you really think you've lost sales rather than gained them from that?
In the future, projects such as these will be more difficult, people are likely to be driven away to more open platforms or put off by the overly zealous restrictions, and Paradox Interactive will lose that additional, free advertising and added longevity for their products (because lets be honest, it's the mods that keep games going as long as they have).
Some individuals will claim that mods such as the Historical Immersion Project or MEIOU drive sales to EUIV and CK2, but do they? These modifications perhaps encourage users from previous versions of the mods to make purchases, but those individuals are likely to purchase future products regardless; AGOT, EK and other TCs however drive sales from new crowds toward Paradox Interactive, introducing new elements to the community and increasing Paradox Interactives popularity. By implementing such harsh restrictions, you are harming yourselves; instead of encouraging a community to grow and spread, you are promoting insularity and isolation; but you aren't just harming yourselves, you're harming the very modding community that you claim to support and love.

~ Signed, a very depressed and disillusioned Paradox fanboy/modder. :(

This is only a very logical side-effect of Paradox making modding subforums private. There was a thread created by me (Here it is.) asking what was the rationale behind Paradox making modding subforums private, which at the end of the thread, was clear that it had been done with an intention to punish pirates, and reward people who had bought the games, and from their point of view, the people who bought their games due to the mods, or had intention of doing so, as long as there were mods which catered to their attention, were irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Considering this, the rules elaborated for the present and future mods are in no way a surprise, and merely constitute a continuation in Paradox just closing the loopholes in how unregistered people can access the modifications. Needless to say, their present logic will continue, to detriment of any modification, mod creator team, mod users, and prospective buyers, simply because from their viewpoint, the vast amount of Paradox customers doesn't buy their games due any mod, as such, there won't be any major change by Paradox, and that would include creating a nexus-like website that allows free hosting and publicity towards unregistered people, since, for one, that could have been much more elegantly dealt with ages ago than by making modding subforums privately, and two, if we remember that Paradox had forum searches deactivated for a very long time, on account of large bandwidth costs, one can very quickly assume that the bandwidth costs of such an endeavour are far more than Paradox is willing to support.

As it stands right now, with the present system, Paradox's games are wildly successful one after the other, and the company is steadily growing, hence from their prespective, nothing needs to be changed, especially in this area that Paradox has made into a anti-piracy pillar.
 
Most of the problem I think is that if these rules are enforced exactly as is, it will actually reduce the value of their games. That's to say, making mods downloadable only if you own the game increases the value of the game as a product, but making user modification forums completely hidden and requiring nearly all information on mods to be in the user modification subforums chokes off advertising potential.

After all, the best products with no advertising won't sell. It's easy enough to make it so anyone can see a forum but only registered users (in this case, people with the game registered) can see links of a particular type (the links to the actual mod files). This way the public and people who don't own the game can *see* the fact that there are these great mods for the game, they just can't possibly download them unless they own the game. Which will therefore increase demand for the game, which will increase sales, etc, etc.

And of course, some of the exact restrictions in these rules just plain irritate modders, and without modders there would be no mods.
 
After all this Hot Debate i try to make some Rules that maybe my fellow Modder friends can live with and also i think Paradox can .
So, how about something like this : (just an idea )



  • 1 - Mods can be freely discussed and promoted on our forums.
  • 1a. - User Mod files should be hosted on a file share site designed for use by the public (if they know the specific address) and or Steam Workshop.
  • 1b. - File share sites include Specific Hosting Sites for Mods that are named and allowed to use by Paradox : Moddb , (Nexus, etc etc ...)
  • 2 - Paradox will not pre-screen Mods and your use of Mods is at your own risk. To help players understand this risk, Mods should include a disclaimer telling players of that risk in an easily viewable place like at the point of download or within a README file within the Mod.
  • 3 - Mods must not infringe any copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret or other intellectual property right of any third party and will not include content that is unlawful, tortious, defamatory, obscene, invasive of the privacy of another person, threatening, harassing, abusive, hateful, racist or otherwise objectionable or inappropriate.
  • 4 - Mods may not modify any .com, .exe, .dll, or other executable files.
  • 5 - Mods must be non-commercial and distributed free-of-charge at this time. Accordingly, Mods cannot be sold, licensed, rented for a fee, nor can the Mod Game contain features that would support monetary transactions of any type. Mods may not be used to advertise any goods or services
  • 6 - Donations may not be solicited directly through Mods. However, Paradox recognizes that the time and resources needed to create Mods can sometimes be substantial. Accordingly, Mod developers are allowed to fund their development costs through donations outside of the Mod itself, subject to the following restrictions:

  • Requests for donations shall be limited to the Mod website or distribution site and not appear within the Mod itself or in our Forum.
  • Donors shall not be provided with any in-game special advantages, such as private access to a Mods, graphical markers, special text, abilities, units, etc. All users are to be able to play the same Mods;
  • Corporations, limited liability companies, partnerships, etc., donors cannot be listed in the credits section of a Mod; only individuals may be listed.

  • 7 - The User Mod should respect the work of other modders and not include any work without the consent of that modder.
  • 8 - No material from one Paradox IP(Game or DLC, includes any content in them) may be used in a user mod, unless that user mod can assure only people with that other Paradox IP installed can use it. If doing that is beyond the technical ability of the particular mod maker or it is impossible then they cannot be used.
 
Last edited:
I do not terribly agree with donations, but dunno. Seems to be basically breaking your other rule about not making it commercial. But otherwise it seems alright.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I do not terribly agree with donations, but dunno. Seems to be basically breaking your other rule about not making it commercial. But otherwise it seems alright.

Their is a Big difference between "commercial" and "donations" ... In EU-Law Rights as also in Tax Terms.
But as is said, its just an idea of Rules ... im not the one who making them or am i a lawyer.
But im old enough (38 , no jokes now, i know im old:ninja:) to know some copyright/tax/internet Laws.
 
The mods need to be able to have a public face where information about it can be accessed by people who don't own the game. I am not saying people who haven't bought the game should be able to download the mod, merely that people should be able to read about it. That public face is also essential for the mod to get any major media coverage which also happens to benefit Paradox.
 
Why would an outside entity post a link to a thread on these forums, when said outsider is only allowed to participate by actually buying a game?

I'm not at all attacking your reasoning for requiring game registration, and I understand it, but you can't have a closed forum and then expect it to be used by people outside it.

Why would you be interested in a mod for a game you do not own, other than maybe to know it exists and the basics, which you would have gotten from the page or article that referred you to this site.
 
Sorry , but just LOL ! *dont be mad at me now*:happy:
But this makes clear that you never had asked a legal department about your rules , otherwise you would (or your lawyer had made EU-LAW-conform rules) know that there is big difference between Surface Links and Deep Links in EU LAW.

We have in fact done so, and I did not mentioned surface or deep links, The distinction I made was between copyright notices and content on our site.
 
Why would you be interested in a mod for a game you do not own, other than maybe to know it exists and the basics, which you would have gotten from the page or article that referred you to this site.
Journalists will not link to a paywall. How about a subforum were modmakers can copy&paste their threads, and links are auto-erased?
 
Just reposting this in case it was missed :ninja:
A publicly accessible site along the lines of something like the Nexus, where each mod has a page with the download and some information which is publicly viewable, but where the download itself is "greyed out" unless you're logged in with an appropriate game for the mod to me sounds like a good idea (tied in to the user database for the forums?). The rules would be complied with; only users on these forums with the legitimate game will be able to actually obtain the mod, but users who don't yet have the game will be able to view screenshots and information about said mods. It would serve to advertise the mods to gain public attention, and encourage sales of the games they are linked to to actually access them.

Not missed, and interesting idea, being honest I do not see it happening short term at least, I will keep the idea in mind for future planing though. Just thinking I may be able to do something similar at least, as I am trying to get wiki style abilities built into the new forum as well. (these should not be considered as promised though as it is still very much not feature locked.) In addition implementing existing features are of higher priority for launch time obviously.
 
I have uploaded my mod on mediafire.com and on Steam Workshop. And previously have asked (earlier in this thread, see link below) whether it is ok to post the link to the mediafire download on Steam Workshop. I was told that it is not ok. But that is not how interpret your statement above (underlined by me): what is the difference? Many thanks for answering.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...-Edits-***&p=17059907&viewfull=1#post17059907

The difference is that anyone has access to it on the steamwork shop, without going through the workshop or the forums.
The rule is it has to be dl direct from the work shop or by hosted site where the link is only made known in the user mod section of this site.
 
The mods need to be able to have a public face where information about it can be accessed by people who don't own the game. I am not saying people who haven't bought the game should be able to download the mod, merely that people should be able to read about it. That public face is also essential for the mod to get any major media coverage which also happens to benefit Paradox.

Nothing preventing you from creating say a web page for the user mod or a blog or and Ad campaign if you wish, you just cannot have a site with user interaction, so no forum for example, even bug sites should limit the users to people actually working on your mod. example Paradox has a bug site for our games, but we do not let our players directly interact with it. Instead they post issues here and one of us enters it in our system. So as long as you do not post your download link on the web page, we do not have issue with it.

We genuinely like you guys (hey we often even hire from this great talent pool to work with us), and want your mod to succeed, even if you think all corporations are evil, Consider it is even in our interest if you succeed, since people need our game to play your mod. We do have some rules that we need you to follow but I am willing to do what I can to minimize the impact of them on you. truly we want to be your partner in this.
 
Journalists will not link to a paywall. How about a subforum were modmakers can copy&paste their threads, and links are auto-erased?

If it is for marketing you are probably better with a webpage with images and arranged all nice. Plenty of free hosting of pages out there. From that page you can post a link to your thread or forum here for more details and DL info, or to the Steam Workshop page. Or create a workshop page and link to that. Can you see workshop pages if you do not own the game? Not 100% sure about that, anyone confirm?