UPDATED 14/06/18 - *** Rules for User Made Mods and Edits of PDS games ***

[EOOQE]

If it is for marketing you are probably better with a webpage with images and arranged all nice. Plenty of free hosting of pages out there. From that page you can post a link to your thread or forum here for more details and DL info, or to the Steam Workshop page. Or create a workshop page and link to that. Can you see workshop pages if you do not own the game? Not 100% sure about that, anyone confirm?

You can see any Workshop page of any game at any time , within Steam and over the Steam Website ... and to be honsest ... that you dont know this is another sign that this Rules are never ever signed by legal department.
Example Skyrim : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/browse/?appid=72850&browsesort=toprated (as you see most Top mods have links to Nexus, even Donations are allowed on Steam WS !!!)

We have in fact done so, and I did not mentioned surface or deep links, The distinction I made was between copyright notices and content on our site.

Yes , and the MOD in a say Mediafire File is NO content of your side ... even the Workshop Mods are NO content of yours. Therefore the Steam Rules kicks in , not yours. Very simple.

You are ONLY responsible for the Content of this Forum and the Links , but there is a difference ... after your logic Google would be responsible for EVERY torrent/porn,nazi, ect etc stuff you can find with it. But as you sure know is not true.
Maybe its Time you rethink your "rules" and ask an real Lawyer.

Sorry , but all your statemenst sounds that only Paradox knows the Rules and every other "big player" is dump and acts against LAW everyday with their moddable Games... And no i dont mean this time EA.
Maybe you should read the Mod Rules from Bethesda(Zentimax) or Sega ...

And i think this questions was somehow not answered by you , too much talks here atm :ninja: ..so i quote myself :

So , its than correct that MEIOU&Taxes is "Grandfathered" , because 10-08-2013 is before 13-08-2013 ?
And every Mod before 13-08-2013 is also "Grandfathered" correct ?

EDIT :
CK2 Mods than are "Grandfathered" before 02-06-2014 , correct ? As the Rules were only on EUIV Subforum for month , and CK2 modders cant even see them if they dont own EUIV.
So , please give clear dates of "what" and "when" Mods are "Grandfathered" and what "Grandfathered" includes (Wikis, Blogs, Downloadlinks , Youtube channel´s, etc etc)

 

[shierholzer]

Or create a workshop page and link to that. Can you see workshop pages if you do not own the game? Not 100% sure about that, anyone confirm?

Excellent idea. At least within Steam and for Civilization V I can.

 

[dorimi]

If it is for marketing you are probably better with a webpage with images and arranged all nice. Plenty of free hosting of pages out there. From that page you can post a link to your thread or forum here for more details and DL info, or to the Steam Workshop page. Or create a workshop page and link to that. Can you see workshop pages if you do not own the game? Not 100% sure about that, anyone confirm?

i will add that you can not only see it, but there are ways to actually download a mod from Steam Workshop without owning a game. There is even a FAQ on a Russians website how to download mods for CK2 from workshop (illegally ofc)

 

[exin]

Yes, you do have access to the workshop. You simply cannot subscribe and download the mods unless you have the game. Hiding the mods is a bad idea in general. I keep buying CK2 dlcs because of the mods, not the vanilla game. I rarely play vanilla game.

Same with other modable games, I base my decision to purchase on available mods. But how can I know what they are if I cannot see them?

EDIT:
My opinion this is not a problem of legality. Because the current situation is well within legal limits. And since a non-owner of a game can see Workshop mods, and download them as it would seem, without owning the game, I think the real reason for this rule is another one.

Paradox for the longest time has been gravitating towards Steam, and far away from other similar platforms, like GamersGate. I believe this is just another move towards Steam. Simply Paradox wants the full Steam experience, even if that means cutting its community down in size.

This is not about protecting from piracy, or rewarding owners of the game with exclusive access to Mods, since Workshop does not guarantee those. Nor is this about legality of the link, since those are also legal. This is simply Paradox wanting things to be done a certain way, no matter the opinion of its player base.

And I understand that to be honest. As long as people buy, you can treat them how you want, since for the most part they will keep buying. So its not a matter of caring about their modding community, its about them making a decision, and us having to live with it and adapt accordingly.

At this point if major mods like AGOT, EK and other big mods that far exceed the Workshop size limit, break away, Paradox will find a way to compensate. We as customers and players are in potentially unlimited supply. So our opinions and desires towards their products do not really matter when it comes to their overall plan.

Since that plan is Steam integration and Workshop support, they made it happen. But then us, the modding community, did not play ball with that plan and few mods made it there, and I only think 1 or 2 of the large mods and total conversions even bothered with the extra heavy and complicated workload required to put a large mod on Steam Workshop.

As a result of the insolence of the modding community, these rules where created. If we do not play as they want and willingly put our mods on Steam Workshop, then they are within their legal rights to force us to do us. With rules such as these. If we refuse, as Castellon said earlier, we can take our toys and leave the Paradox Community.

So it boils down to really just 2 options: play by their tune and learn how to use Steam Workshop and get more work over our hobbies and turning them into a chore, just so Paradox can have their shiny Steam Workshop thingy, or leave the Paradox Community so we can continue to mod as we have for so long.

That is the conclusion of the conversation so far, as stated by Castellon's answers for the most part. Or so that is what I understand from them. No offense meant, he's just the only one talking to us right now.

 

[AKronblad]

The difference is that anyone has access to it on the steamwork shop, without going through the workshop or the forums.
The rule is it has to be dl direct from the work shop or by hosted site where the link is only made known in the user mod section of this site.

OK, thanks for answer. There are mods that on Steam Workshop provide links to direct download on e.g. mediafire though. Is it you guys or Steam guys who look after that?

 

[gigau]

but I am willing to do what I can to minimize the impact of them on you. truly we want to be your partner in this.

Well, i need a solution for Steam players that are not registered here, but can't get M&T for EUIV to work because we had to split it in several parts, and that Workshop is a pain to manage a mod the size of ours.

I know you said something about possibly a new host service or whatever… but i need a solution "now", not next year.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

I thought I understood the rules for mods, but reading through the last two-three pages of conversation has made my head hurt. Castellon, as a matter of curiosity, and with no offense meant, are there any other members of Paradox who are willing to comment and clarify?

 

[Castellon]

I thought I understood the rules for mods, but reading through the last two-three pages of conversation has made my head hurt. Castellon, as a matter of curiosity, and with no offense meant, are there any other members of Paradox who are willing to comment and clarify?

What do you need clarification on I can answer whatever you need.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

All I can answer is that I'm not confident you can clarify Paradox's exact rules on this matter for me. I don't understand either the purpose of the rules, or the actual nature of some of them (EX, you're not allowed to have a ModDB page, except when you are, but when you are it can't have download links or interaction with the ModDB community, except if you set up the page before a date when it wasn't allowed...what?)

Like, I understand not fracturing the community by allowing for individual discussion forums, that I get. And I get absolving yourself of blame if something you release happens to resemble something a modder has previously done, no complaints. But by both having the user mod forums restricted to registered forum users who have also registered the game (something that a good number of people will not do just because they don't want to bother registering for a forum just for the sake of trying a mod), and saying that you can't post download links anywhere but on that forum (including for mods too big to fit on the Steam workshop), you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, and it's just an odd combination of rules. It's directly cutting out a huge number of people who might otherwise be interested in mods.

 

[Castellon]

You can see any Workshop page of any game at any time , within Steam and over the Steam Website ... and to be honsest ... that you dont know this is another sign that this Rules are never ever signed by legal department.
Example Skyrim : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/browse/?appid=72850&browsesort=toprated (as you see most Top mods have links to Nexus, even Donations are allowed on Steam WS !!!)



Yes , and the MOD in a say Mediafire File is NO content of your side ... even the Workshop Mods are NO content of yours. Therefore the Steam Rules kicks in , not yours. Very simple.

You are ONLY responsible for the Content of this Forum and the Links , but there is a difference ... after your logic Google would be responsible for EVERY torrent/porn,nazi, ect etc stuff you can find with it. But as you sure know is not true.
Maybe its Time you rethink your "rules" and ask an real Lawyer.

Sorry , but all your statemenst sounds that only Paradox knows the Rules and every other "big player" is dump and acts against LAW everyday with their moddable Games... And no i dont mean this time EA.
Maybe you should read the Mod Rules from Bethesda(Zentimax) or Sega ...

And i think this questions was somehow not answered by you , too much talks here atm :ninja: ..so i quote myself :

I do not see how asking about whether Workshop mods are view able if you do not own the game is relevant to whether we sought legal advice?
I have a developer account on steam, my permissions will not be the same as regular members. Also it is a third party site and believe me when I say Steam has its own lawyers.

Intentionally or not you appear to be misunderstanding what I am saying. You seam to want to drag this conversation into some kind of legal debate and we do not engage in legal debates on the forums, So I will politely say that expressing your legal opinion is off topic for this thread as mentioned somewhere around the first page I believe.

 

[Castellon]

Well, i need a solution for Steam players that are not registered here, but can't get M&T for EUIV to work because we had to split it in several parts, and that Workshop is a pain to manage a mod the size of ours.

I know you said something about possibly a new host service or whatever… but i need a solution "now", not next year.

For now I would ask them to register their game here.

 

[Castellon]

OK, thanks for answer. There are mods that on Steam Workshop provide links to direct download on e.g. mediafire though. Is it you guys or Steam guys who look after that?

We can remove anything from the Workshop that violates our TOS.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

For now I would ask them to register their game here.

But that's what is trying to be communicated: there's a MASSIVE number of people who would rather not bother with the hassle of registering a new account on a new forum, and then finding their game key, and registering their game, rather than try the mod. It's directly cutting out a large number of people who otherwise would try and play the mod, and maybe even comment on the mod's Steam Workshop page.

If you tell people "Well to get any help with this mod you need to register at this forum you aren't otherwise interested in", they will go, "Oh. Well, I'm not actually that interested in this mod anymore."

 

[Castellon]

All I can answer is that I'm not confident you can clarify Paradox's exact rules on this matter for me. I don't understand either the purpose of the rules, or the actual nature of some of them (EX, you're not allowed to have a ModDB page, except when you are, but when you are it can't have download links or interaction with the ModDB community, except if you set up the page before a date when it wasn't allowed...what?)

Like, I understand not fracturing the community by allowing for individual discussion forums, that I get. And I get absolving yourself of blame if something you release happens to resemble something a modder has previously done, no complaints. But by both having the user mod forums restricted to registered forum users who have also registered the game (something that a good number of people will not do just because they don't want to bother registering for a forum just for the sake of trying a mod), and saying that you can't post download links anywhere but on that forum (including for mods too big to fit on the Steam workshop), you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, and it's just an odd combination of rules. It's directly cutting out a huge number of people who might otherwise be interested in mods.

Since I wrote the rules, I do not see how anyone else could clarify them better for you.
Feel free to ask any specific questions you have, that is essentially what this thread is for.

You appear to have an excellent grasp of exactly what the rules are. You can advertise your mod on sites like ModDb but if someone want to interact with you about the mod or download the mod they come here to do that or get the info to DL it. The exception is if it is hosted on the Steam Workshop obviously they can DL direct from there.

And pretty sure I had to register on most modding sites to be able to download mods.

 

[myzael]

You seem to have missed it, so I am quoting EQOOE with a kind request for a clear answer in this matter as obviously I am interested too:

So , its than correct that MEIOU&Taxes is "Grandfathered" , because 10-08-2013 is before 13-08-2013 ?
And every Mod before 13-08-2013 is also "Grandfathered" correct ?

EDIT :
CK2 Mods than are "Grandfathered" before 02-06-2014 , correct ? As the Rules were only on EUIV Subforum for month , and CK2 modders cant even see them if they dont own EUIV.
So , please give clear dates of "what" and "when" Mods are "Grandfathered" and what "Grandfathered" includes (Wikis, Blogs, Downloadlinks , Youtube channel´s, etc etc)

 

[TheChronoMaster]

And pretty sure I had to register on most modding sites to be able to download mods.

TWCenter, ModDB, CivFanatics, Nexus (for smaller to medium sized mods -- very large mods, a gig or more IIRC, require registration), none of those require registration to download their mods, and they are fairly well known mod sites. At least two of those also utilize links to third party download sites for their mods (TWCenter and CivFanatics).

I do, however, recognize these are not official sites for the games in question.

 

[Castellon]

But that's what is trying to be communicated: there's a MASSIVE number of people who would rather not bother with the hassle of registering a new account on a new forum, and then finding their game key, and registering their game, rather than try the mod. It's directly cutting out a large number of people who otherwise would try and play the mod, and maybe even comment on the mod's Steam Workshop page.

If you tell people "Well to get any help with this mod you need to register at this forum you aren't otherwise interested in", they will go, "Oh. Well, I'm not actually that interested in this mod anymore."

I definitely do not want to minimize anything, but it is often the "vocal minority" anyone interested in actually giving the mod a chance should be will come here. Maybe we need to look at more ways to make it worth their while.

 

[Castellon]

TWCenter, ModDB, CivFanatics, Nexus (for smaller to medium sized mods -- very large mods, a gig or more IIRC, require registration), none of those require registration to download their mods, and they are fairly well known mod sites. At least two of those also utilize links to third party download sites for their mods (TWCenter and CivFanatics).

I do, however, recognize these are not official sites for the games in question.

I know Nexus would not let me DL any Skyrim mods I wanted without an account. Maybe they are tightening up the rules.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

I know Nexus would not let me DL any Skyrim mods I wanted without an account. Maybe they are tightening up the rules.

2 MB, the limit was considerably smaller than I thought. You're probably right on this, since I can't think of a whole lot of worthwhile Skyrim mods less than 2MB in size, but that's neither here nor there -- Nexus only requires you to register an account, it doesn't require an added step of registering your game.

Also, I am sure that EQOOE and myzael would like an answer.

 

[Castellon]

You seem to have missed it, so I am quoting EQOOE with a kind request for a clear answer in this matter as obviously I am interested too:

If you can demonstrate that whatever you want to do that contravenes one of the rules was in place before the release of EU4 and is not related to EU4 or any Base game released after that, then you could ask me for it to be grandfathered and I would communicate that to my staff.