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unmerged(23409)

LevePalestinaKrossaSionis men
Dec 13, 2003
586
2
Now that you guys are abberating the ROTW, how about Vinland? I know that Sheridan came up with the idea in Abberation 1 and it was rejected, but is there a possibillity that there could be a Vinland in the mod? I have some ideas for events, yadda yadda, could it be put in?
 
Byakhiam said:
It'd need to be rather puny as a country, to be anyhow realistic.

They would be piss-poor and have tiny manpower, at least until they are re-discovered.
 
What you could do is put them in as part of Norway, making Norway much harder to conquer. It would allow UoK a leg up in exploration after they take Norway's capital, but if a minimal number of provinces are visible, it should not be too big a problem.
 
I was envisioning a country that would cover Greenland, Newfoundland (all 3 provs) and possibly Isle Royale and/or a couple provinces on the Labrador coast (north of Quebec facing Greenland).... mostly to act as either a speedbump (since Eire would have to explore past them in order to colonize, instead of setting up a naval base in Isle Royale or Placentia as I do now) or a base of operations (if bribed up to being friendly) for Eire in the early colonial game.

They would not have extensive colonization or exploring capability - mostly because of being piss-poor (all those are low tax value areas and I didn't plan on changing it) - and would have no access to the mainland west/south of Belle Isle province, with the possible exception of Nova Scotia.

However, they should have enough map knowledge that - if played by a player - they could attempt (notice "attempt") to influence any remaining native American nations in the northeast (such as the Iroquois or Huron) and settlements - probably trading posts - in the Quebec area. This could be accomplished by giving them a few short-lived conquistadors - remember that they will already have knowledge of the coastal sea zones in the Quebec region - and thus they would be limited by the lack of sea explorers.
 
I don't think they should have extensive map knowledge. It could turn out "race to grab Vinland's maps" unless Vinland is Pagan. Vinland could be Pagan however.
 
I was thinking that this is what Vinland would know at the start, plus Iceland and a sea route to Europe (no provinces known):

mapknowledge1.jpg


On religion, how about Aesir belifs (Paganism) vs Catholicism? I was going to write a few event-chains about the struggle between the old pagans and the Catholics, who are outnumbered at the moment, but when Vinland is re-discovered, get the upper hand.

And they would only get one or two conquistadors with short lifespan, to explore the inland a bit.
 
This is an interesting concept. I love the alt-history perspective. But the ability for it to be abused makes me shudder.

I would prefer to see Vinland as an independent state that now knows only its own two provinces and adjacent sea zones. It has lost the knowledge of long distance sea faring.

As for religion; are they Catholic? It's been a long time. Maybe they would be orthodox, if only to demarcate them as no longer being catholic but still being Christian. Or we could posit that a numerically small isolated community has developed their own form of protestantism, divorced as they now are from the mainstream.

They would need to have their own culture, I feel. Linguistically they would be markedly different from the norse languages which developed back in Scandinavia.
 
MattyG said:
I would prefer to see Vinland as an independent state that now knows only its own two provinces and adjacent sea zones. It has lost the knowledge of long distance sea faring.

But what would be the fun in that? Historically, if Vinland did survive, wouldn't it have expanded in 400 or so years?

MattyG said:
As for religion; are they Catholic? It's been a long time. Maybe they would be orthodox, if only to demarcate them as no longer being catholic but still being Christian. Or we could posit that a numerically small isolated community has developed their own form of protestantism, divorced as they now are from the mainstream.

They would be small and isolated, but I thought there would be a conflict between the Christians who are smaller numerically and the Aesir pagans for control of Vinland.

MattyG said:
They would need to have their own culture, I feel. Linguistically they would be markedly different from the norse languages which developed back in Scandinavia.

That's a given, as Scandinavian society developed beyond the Vikings, Vinland would be a pocket of Medieval history with it's own culture (Norse?) and a completley different form of government.
 
MattyG said:
They would need to have their own culture, I feel. Linguistically they would be markedly different from the norse languages which developed back in Scandinavia.

Linguistically, it's unlikely they'd have drifted far from Icelandic, given that even today Icelanders can read ancient Norse sagas without too much difficulty. Also, it's another case of introducing a culture with very minor consequences in game, if any (especially if Pagan).

We can put Vinland and Greenland in, but we have to ask: what would they contribute to the game?

As for the colonial angle, the Iceland-Greenland-Newfoundland route is the most natural way into the New World from northern Europe. Given Ireland's position, it's going to be desperate for access to ports along this route. Having more Scandinavian settlements along this route will act as a speedbump to the Irish AI, but it'll just let a player piggyback by buying access, in the way many players take a piggyback ride on Portugal's empire in vanilla. It may not make as interesting a story, but I think it would work better gameplay-wise if Ireland colonises the northern route itself.
 
Two provinces? I was thinking more like 7 or 8 (two in Greenland, three in Newfoundland, plus anouther 2 or 3 in Isle Royale/Labrador areas).... Notice that all of these are very poor provinces and I'm not recommending any change to that - they *should* be poor. This is an isolated corner of European settlement that's just a bit too far north, and capable of only a touch more than a basic susbsistence level economy. Even with these 7 or 8 provinces, they will be poorer than some 2- or 3- province European nations... and any expansion at all means colonizing, which we can make rather difficult and already is quite costly compared to what such a nation could afford.

As for map knowledge, I think the graphic above is even a little generous on the mainland. They should know only their owned provinces and adjacent sea zones, plus sea access to Iceland maybe (but not the land). They could be given a couple short term conquistadors to make things interesting, but without an explorer they won't easily get even as far as Massachusetts or Hudson Bay. And for the same reason, they don't need that Massachusetts Bay sea zone.

I was figuring a low population, spread out, very poor nation that would probably be Pagan but European - an interesting cross of effects, that - with a potential to go Catholic (or Protestant) later on, after re-establishing contact with other Europeans. And whether they have their own or Scandinavian culture really is a side issue to me; either would work fine.

As far as affecting Eire's colonization - if we don't give them Nova Scotia, Eire will still have 3 colonizable provinces along their southern sea zone and 5 or 6 in the northern one (along the coast of Canada that is). It will cut down on, but not eliminate, the options.

As far as Irish port access, the AI only grants that with good relations; we could script a lot of relations-crashing events early.... say, Irish attempts to send in missionaries that offend the Vinland government....

As far as what Vinland's presence will contribute, that's easy. There are some players who will want to play it, just like the zealots who want to play Byzantium or try to unify Europe as Navarre in vanilla..... the fact that there used to be a whole team working on a Vinland mod makes that quite clear. And the survival of the Greenland/Vinland settlements is no more absurd than some of the twists we've put into Aberration already; the disintegration of England, the survival of the Caliphate, the resurgence of Cordoba, just to name a couple examples....

Edit: I wrote up an INC file that could be workable as a starting point; of course the numbers on the units and the country tag might need changing, and the province details will need coding, but at least this will give an idea of what I meant. I was a bit generous on deep-sea zones in the North Atlantic; I was thinking that part of their economy could involve fishing out on the Grand Banks.

Code:
#Vinland#

country = { 
    tag = VIN 
    colonialattempts = 0 
    colonialnation = no 
    major = no 
    colonists = 0 
    cancelledloans = 0 
    extendedloans = 0 
    treasury = 10 
    inflation = 0.000000 
    merchants = 0.000000 
    religion = { type = pagan }
    culture = { type = scandinavian }
    diplomacy = { 
        } 
    knownprovinces = { 117 118 119 120 124 125 126 1537 1538 833 834 835 

836 864 865 866 867 } 
    ownedprovinces = { 
        117 118 119 120 124 125 126 1537 1538 } 
    controlledprovinces = { 
        117 118 119 120 124 125 126 1537 1538 } 
    nationalprovinces = { 
       117 118 119 120 124 125 126 1537 1538 } 
    city = {         fortress = { level = 1 }  
        population = 3000
        location = 119 
        capital = yes 
		bailiff = yes
        } 
    city = {         fortress = { level = 1 }  
        population = 1400
        location = 118 
		bailiff = yes
        } 
    city = {         fortress = { level = 1 }  
        population = 1400
        location = 117 
		bailiff = yes
        } 
    city = {         fortress = { level = 1 }  
        population = 1400
        location = 120 
		bailiff = yes
        } 
    city = {         fortress = { level = 1 }  
        population = 1400
        location = 1537 
		bailiff = yes
        } 
    city = {         fortress = { level = 1 }  
        population = 1400
        location = 1538 
		bailiff = yes
        } 
    city = {         fortress = { level = 1 }  
        population = 1100
        location = 124 
		bailiff = yes
        } 
    city = {         fortress = { level = 1 }  
        population = 1100
        location = 125 
		bailiff = yes
        } 
    city = {         fortress = { level = 1 }  
        population = 1100
        location = 126 
		bailiff = yes
        } 
	}
	landunit = {
		id = { type = 19988 id = 9999 }
		name = "Vinland Militia"
		location = 119
		morale = 2
		inf = 1000
		cav = 500
		art = 0
	}
	navalunit = {
		id = { type = 19988 id = 9998 }
		name = "Vinland Navy"
		location = 119
		morale = 2
		warships = 0
		galleys = 5
		transports = 0
	}
    technology = {
	stability = { level = 0 value = 0 }
        infra = { level = 0 value = 0 }
	trade = { level = 0 value = 0 }
        land = { level = 0 value = 0 } 
        naval = { level = 3 value = 0 } 
        group = latin
        } 
    }
 
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Sheridan said:

Latin tech? How could such an isolated and impoverished country possibly be in the top league for tech-group, with neighbour bonuses and all? By the sounds of it, their rate of technological progress to date has been not just zero but negative, so it seems unlikely that it would suddenly recover in 1419.

Maybe give them China tech (ie 40% slower than Latin), but given their globetrotting origins, they can be freed from whiteman penalties. They might move up the groups when they reestablish contact with Europe; then again, given generations of virtually no change, they might have become ultra-traditionalist and hostile to any technology that isn't found in the sagas.

If they're Pagan, they might as well be Scandinavian - it makes for a fun option for players, in which they invade Scandinavia and bring back the old gods. Also I'd point out that in most games, a Pagan Vinland and any culture it might have would be dead meat as soon as Ireland had the resources to conquer them. But I agree, Vinland could be fun in single player.
 
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What about including Iceland, I mean Vinland was discovered by icelandic sailors after all. or Vinland could be a part of an icelandic seaempire (or just an icelandic vassal) Anyway would be better to give Vinland the new norwegian culture, since scandinvian is now supposed to represent danes and swedes.
 
*shrug* Both those ideas - norwegian and a slower tech group - make sense, they just weren't things I'd thought about.

As far as Iceland... I don't think Vinland should still be in contact with Iceland if Iceland is still in contact with Europe. An independent Iceland or Iceland as an outpost of a European nation would make a lot more sense.
 
The Vinland concept is one I support in principle, but not as a 7 - 8 province country. Here are my reasons.

1. Seafaring skill

If they have maintained such a strong cultural and governmental connections between Greenland and Newfoundland, then they would be plying the routes between them regularly. With all that seafaring ability still intact, limiting them to this region defies logic. Why would they not have moved further south where the living is easier? How could they not have turned westward from whence they came to rediscover their links there?

2. Aberration is Multiplayer

Yes a 7 - 8 preovince Vinland would be fun in SP, but Aberration is an MP-oriented mod. There are other mods that could accommodate a Greater Vinland, and it sounds as if one has been done already. However, the size of the place you propose would conflct too greatly with the MP scenario.


Unless ...

The premise for the exploration of the New World changes.

1. The Vinlanders rediscover their seafaring heritage in the mid-late 1300's. This results in the discovery of Newfoundland, and the establishment of colonies there.

2. The colonies are more successful, the country richer, and the king (?) moves the capital to the Island by 1410.

3. The Vinlanders discovr the tip of Nova Scotia, but are defeated there by natives. They chose intead to explore north and east.

4. A colony is established on Belle Isle or Manicougan.

5. The explorer Hreidresson discovers Europe, landing (well, shipwrecked) on the shores of Ireland in 1460. He does not leave, so the Vinlanders do not learn of the lands to the east, but the Europeans begin to accept that there is land west of them.

6. Henry the Navigator's claims now see less ludicrous. His initial explorations (we scrap de Senill) only found more ocean and no land. Eire equips a new voyage of discovery based on the knowledge of the Vinlanders, who head further east in search of Scandanavia.

7. This voyage uncovers the first of the lands to the west, touching down on Newfoundland, where they are welcomed by the Vinlanders, then heading south to Nova Scotia.


And so begins the Age of Discovery. And it involves the Vinnlanders, but they cannot be easily abused either by a player, or by the first nations to find them.

And, yes, they are China tech but can rise to orthodox with the right events by 1700.

MattyG
 
Here is a different possible path that I have come up with:

The Vinland areas are colonies of Norway, but they are seen as so poor that no one would want to go there. Thus, the rest of Europe does not really pay attention to their existence; indeed, only Norway knows about them.

When Norway is being threatened by the UoK, they, having heard of the Irish explorations, rather desperately start sending out explorers to the Canada area, and colonists to the old Vinland area. When the Norwegians control none of their own Norwegian provinces, the king flees to the colonies, taking along a fairly large population boost. Of course, they get a similar event eventually, giving them the option to move there even if they are successful in Scandanavia, but in that case it would be a B option. The king has the chance to turn over Norway to their Scotch allies, as they have given up hope and decided to focus solely on the New World. They, according to this story, quickly colonized most of Canada, and steadily get influxes of Norwegians discontented with Union of Kalmar rule.

Meanwhile, the Scotch get the option to annex the remnants of Norway, gaining Norwegian culture. They also get the option to leave Norway to the Kalmar Union.

Or something like that. :)
 
I like some of that proposal, although I would never imagine the Norweignian court would leave Norwar unless they were forced out, nor can I believe that the other Europeans don't know about colonies that the Norweigians sail to several times a year.

And I don't see why we can't weave together a composite storyline.

Instead of the Norweigians maintaining the area and fleeing there, let us posit that, upon the 'redisovery' of Vinland, and the subsequent sailing west, the Norweigians are actually the second country out of the block and head for Vinland. Events follow which strengthen the ties between the two and the Vinlanders become vassals of Norway.

Then, should Norway be seriously threatened (ie its capital is controlled by an enemy and it has fewer than 6 total provinces) the event triggers which moves the court to Vinland, where they are granted lordship of the northern province (secede province, Norway moves its capital). Once Vinland converts to Catholicism or Protestantism then they are swiftly diploannexed by the more powerful and advanced Norweigians.