Vinland?

[unmerged(30761)]

Event from AGCEEP

##The Vinland Map
event = {
id = 251017
random = no
country = PAP
name = "The Vinland Map"
desc = "The Vinland Map is a 15th century map of the world. It is believed to have been commissioned circa 1440 to support the Council of Basel. Its captions tell of the Carpini mission carrying the Faith to Tartary in the Northeast, Bishop Eric Gnupsson visiting Vinland in the Northwest, Prester John established in the Southeast, and even Saint Brendan in the Antilles in the Southwest. The importance of the map is that it depicts a body of land across the Atlantic called Vinilanda Insula (Island of Vinland). In modern times the map was first found in 1957. Its current owner is Yale University. Two scientific conferences, in 1966 and 1996, were held to debate the map's authenticity, but no final determination could be made. If authentic it would be the oldest map of North America ever found."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1440 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1449 }

 

[unmerged(1047)]

First of all, the "Vinland mod" disappeared some time ago, and was never really finished to begin with... but that's beside the point.

Vinland *is* Newfoundland, for one thing. Greenland was seperate, although the two were closely related. The Labrador coast had another name, which I can't recall at the moment. But the point is, having Vinland rediscover Newfoundland is absurd, since they're there already.

I don't understand what the big deal is about having a country in Vinland's location; yes, it will deny access to Newfoundland and Greenland and thus hamper colonization, but even at the size I detailed it would only make colonization of America impossible from *three* sea zones - the ones adjacent to Greenland, and the eastern Newfoundland zone. The two western Newfoundland sea zones also attach to the Canadian mainland, which it was widely agreed Vinland shouldn't have map knowledge of. Maybe the 7-8 provinces I proposed is a bit much, but it could be chopped to about 5 without harming the concept (just the islands of Newfoundland/Vinland and of Greenland, and possibly even with Greenland and Newfoundland as two seperate but allied countries; thus freeing up all of the mainland plus Isle Royale). Keep in mind, also, that we are talking about provinces that are among the poorest provinces in North America, and we're *not* proposing changing the taxvalues or manpower. Those 5 provinces (let's say) are probably poorer, taken together, than two average European provinces. Newfoundland has a total tax value of what, 5? And Greenland maybe 4?

As far as the storyline, I think it could be explained that during a colder period (the real-life explanation for the abandonment of Greenland) the colonies nearly died out, and in 1419 are still in a process of economic recovery. The survivors have persisted mainly on an economy of deep-sea fishing (see the Grand Banks; this is why I wanted to put the capital in Placentia, which is closest), hunting, and subsistence farming. They haven't explored because they didn't have the energy to do so - they were too worried about their own survival, and perhaps the few abortive attempts were met with disaster, hostile natives, etcetera. We could accentuate this - and further weaken their start - by having some of their home provinces as "colonies" with populations of say 500.

I like the idea of a close relationship with Norway, but using Vinland as some sort of Norwegian "Emergency Exit" seems a bit far-fetched as well; I would think Iceland could play that role. Certainly, they could be allies, have intertwining events, pick up their religion from Norway, and so on, but a merger seems unlikely. I would think also that, if having Vinland is considered "disruptive", having a merged Vinland-Norway would be even more so.

 

[Incompetent]

...

The problem is more that it gives Ireland a very easy route into America. But it is interesting as an SP option. Given its peripheral position, there shouldn't be any difficulty in making Vinland optional.

As for the escape route, I also don't think the Norwegian king would want to live in such dreadful conditions or reign over such a feeble kingdom as Vinland; even Iceland would be stretching it. Most likely he'd be integrated into the nobility of Scotland, and would continue to have a great deal of power in the Norwegian part of that realm. If however Scotland and Kalmar both turn against him, then he might well flee to Iceland or beyond.

 

[unmerged(23409)]

The problem is more that it gives Ireland a very easy route into America. But it is interesting as an SP option. Given its peripheral position, there shouldn't be any difficulty in making Vinland optional.

That's what I thought, make it an option.

As for the escape route, I also don't think the Norwegian king would want to live in such dreadful conditions or reign over such a feeble kingdom as Vinland; even Iceland would be stretching it. Most likely he'd be integrated into the nobility of Scotland, and would continue to have a great deal of power in the Norwegian part of that realm. If however Scotland and Kalmar both turn against him, then he might well flee to Iceland or beyond.

Anyways, Vinland would have been independent of Norwegian rule for 400+ years, by then they would have become quite self-sufficient and would have resented the Norwegian King if he tried to assert his dominance.

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Also, it's possible to write in a bunch of events that would sour relations with Eire, if you don't want Vinland used as a base. Especially if Vinland is Pagan, we could play it as religious strife caused by the arrival of unwanted Irish missionaries.... all we'd have to do is write up something that says that "Vinlanders are burning Irish missionaries at the stake!" and have it trigger whenever relations go above +40, with a -100 hit....

 

[unmerged(23409)]

Also, it's possible to write in a bunch of events that would sour relations with Eire, if you don't want Vinland used as a base. Especially if Vinland is Pagan, we could play it as religious strife caused by the arrival of unwanted Irish missionaries....

Well, the original explorers and colonists who founded Vinland were Pagan, but there were a significant amount of Christians as well, Lief Erikson was Christian IIRC. Maybe there could be conflict between Christians and Pagans in Vinland, exacerbated by the arrival of zealous European missionaries?

 

[MattyG]

I feel certain that the issue would have been resolved by 1419. Either they will be Christians or pagans by then, but not both.

 

[unmerged(23409)]

I feel certain that the issue would have been resolved by 1419. Either they will be Christians or pagans by then, but not both.

But Vinland would be a very de-centralized state, though Christianity would be in the minority by 1419, it wouldn't have been eradicated. It would have influenced the Aeisr belifs and vice-versa, I don't think there would have been some witch hunt for practicers of another faith.

 

[unmerged(23409)]

I also don't see why Vinland should be given Chinese Tech Group, the people in Vinland are innovative, adventureous, european and some are Christian, why should they be in a lower group?

At the start Greenland could be a vassal to Vinland, and after a short amount of time, say 1450, Greenland gets an event "Emigration to Vinland" or somesuch where Greenland gets annexed by Vinland and some pop is moved.

 

[MattyG]

First of all, the "Vinland mod" disappeared some time ago, and was never really finished to begin with... but that's beside the point.

Vinland *is* Newfoundland, for one thing. Greenland was seperate, although the two were closely related. The Labrador coast had another name, which I can't recall at the moment. But the point is, having Vinland rediscover Newfoundland is absurd, since they're there already.

I don't understand what the big deal is about having a country in Vinland's location; yes, it will deny access to Newfoundland and Greenland and thus hamper colonization, but even at the size I detailed it would only make colonization of America impossible from *three* sea zones - the ones adjacent to Greenland, and the eastern Newfoundland zone. The two western Newfoundland sea zones also attach to the Canadian mainland, which it was widely agreed Vinland shouldn't have map knowledge of. Maybe the 7-8 provinces I proposed is a bit much, but it could be chopped to about 5 without harming the concept (just the islands of Newfoundland/Vinland and of Greenland, and possibly even with Greenland and Newfoundland as two seperate but allied countries; thus freeing up all of the mainland plus Isle Royale). Keep in mind, also, that we are talking about provinces that are among the poorest provinces in North America, and we're *not* proposing changing the taxvalues or manpower. Those 5 provinces (let's say) are probably poorer, taken together, than two average European provinces. Newfoundland has a total tax value of what, 5? And Greenland maybe 4?

As far as the storyline, I think it could be explained that during a colder period (the real-life explanation for the abandonment of Greenland) the colonies nearly died out, and in 1419 are still in a process of economic recovery. The survivors have persisted mainly on an economy of deep-sea fishing (see the Grand Banks; this is why I wanted to put the capital in Placentia, which is closest), hunting, and subsistence farming. They haven't explored because they didn't have the energy to do so - they were too worried about their own survival, and perhaps the few abortive attempts were met with disaster, hostile natives, etcetera. We could accentuate this - and further weaken their start - by having some of their home provinces as "colonies" with populations of say 500.

I like the idea of a close relationship with Norway, but using Vinland as some sort of Norwegian "Emergency Exit" seems a bit far-fetched as well; I would think Iceland could play that role. Certainly, they could be allies, have intertwining events, pick up their religion from Norway, and so on, but a merger seems unlikely. I would think also that, if having Vinland is considered "disruptive", having a merged Vinland-Norway would be even more so.

1. The Emergency Exit concept is not far fetched. The Portugese court moved to Brazil, the English court to Holland. There are historical precedents for courts moving to foreign lands. Vinland is far away and safe by comparison to some locations the court could move to. As incompetant said, it would be situational, but it is certainly plausible.

2. Thanks for your re-re-reassusrances that Vinland would be poor. Yes it would be. But no-one is suggesting otherwise, nor is that the reason for some of us objecting to your full proposal.

3. You have offered a background story as to why they have not expanded futher, but are you suggesting that in all of this - what, 600 years - they are still plodding away, barely successful? In 600 years, either they have themselves gone backwards technologically, and we ought to just treat them as 'natives', or else they have overcome their initial difficulties and built a nation which we can represent within the game as a nation. In which case I don't buy the limitations of their set-up. If they have maintained enough of their advanced seafaring tradition to fish the Grand Banks, then they could have explored the coasts, traded with native groups and eventually, surely, within 600 years have expanded beyond those provinces. At least in terms of knowledge. And in 600 years their knowledge of metal working would ensure they would finally have met success in conflct with technologically inferior groups, especially once their numbers were sufficiently high, which they would be after 100 years or more, especially if they have the food resources of the Grand Banks to assist them.

For me, this Greater Vinland, while a plausible and intriguing story, cannot be accommodated into the current vision of Aberration, as the ramifications of having a successful and techonologically advanced European nation developing in the New World 600 or so years earlier represents too great of a change to fabric of the mod. It's like having the Albigensian crusade not happen, or the moors never making it across Africa.

 

[MattyG]

But Vinland would be a very de-centralized state, though Christianity would be in the minority by 1419, it wouldn't have been eradicated. It would have influenced the Aeisr belifs and vice-versa, I don't think there would have been some witch hunt for practicers of another faith.

I cannot believe that in 600 years there would still be two distinct religious strains within the culture, tolerated and with their original traditions somehow intact. More likely they would have either eradicated one or blended the two. And if only one had survived, I guarentee it will have altered dramatically with time and distance unless they took legible religious transcripts with them to maintain a connection. 600 years isolated from Europe, its a really really really long time.

 

[unmerged(23409)]

I cannot believe that in 600 years there would still be two distinct religious strains within the culture, tolerated and with their original traditions somehow intact. More likely they would have either eradicated one or blended the two. And if only one had survived, I guarentee it will have altered dramatically with time and distance unless they took legible religious transcripts with them to maintain a connection. 600 years isolated from Europe, its a really really really long time.

600? The discovery of Vinland was in 1000AD, but at any rate, there probably would be a molding of the two religions. How would this be moddled in-game, would it be pagan still?

 

[unmerged(23409)]

I don't see why a Vinland shouldn't be included because it's a-historical, isn't that what Aberration is about? We have a united Ireland, a Democratic Republic in the Arizona desert, a trading state that owns vast chunks of Europe with a large standing army and navy, a Mayan Empire with colonies throughout the Carribean and completely screwed-up England, where land as far south as Liverpool is Scottish. I think a moderatly sucessful Vinland pales in comparison to some of these.

1. Have they, or have they not, retained (and further developed) their seafaring skills, and their culture of colonisation and trade.

I would say that for the first few hundered years they did retain their culture, but have had to abandon them around a generation ago.

2. If not, what events have occured to remove this and limit them to a specific area. These events will play a big role in defining the current culture of this nation.

Well, the Little Ice Age would have had a major impact on the settlers, and the Skraeling would have taken the opportunity to have attacked them while they were weakened.

3. If they have retained them, then how on earth do they not know of and trade with native groups up and down the coast, and how have they not incredibly altered the technological development and cultural direction of these groups?

The Viking explorers would have only established trading posts in most places, and when the Little Ice Age came, the Vinlanders would have abandoned them completely and retreated to their core in Newfoundland. They wouldn't have traded much with the Natives, perhaps the only thing that the Natives would have got was some Iron tools, which would stop coming once the LIA came.

 

[MattyG]

1. We ARE looking to incorporate Vinland. The debate we are having is about the shape and extent of it. And if its going to be in it has to make sense and the ramifications of it have to be clearly thought through. Check back through my postings, I have welcomed the idea, but not the current form of it proposed by Sheridan and yourself.

2. I think that the Little Ice Age (as I know it) did not have the effects you are considering. The 1200s was the warmest time on the planet for thousands of years and the planet began to cool from that point, reaching its apex in 1846-7. By 1200, England had a wine industry and was warmer in general than we are today (but with a decent ozone layer). If anything, the Vinlanders would be surging ahead two hundred years before the game commences, their fields rich, the island of Newfoundland warm, and the waters of the Grand Banks hyper-productive. The Vinlander's should have nothing holding them back frompropering for several hundred years.

 

[MattyG]

600? The discovery of Vinland was in 1000AD, but at any rate, there probably would be a molding of the two religions. How would this be moddled in-game, would it be pagan still?

OK 500+ years. The game starts in 1419, but the New World is not discovered until 1500.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Vinland could be a pagan norwegian vassal that break free when Norway is annexed by Kalmar or Scotland, I don't think Vinland should get latin tech, but neither exotic. Something there between would be good. Also it would be a good idea for them to remain pagan, since that would make Vinland more special.

I think it would be something like this:
When Norway ended to´exist the pagan clans of Vinland denounced the foreign kings and declared independence. Later Vinlanders became active in the fight for Greenland, since their greenlandish brethren wnated to join Vinland instead of pledging allegiance to a foreign king, another threat to Vinland became the Icelandic republic that trhough a deal wit the irish decided to split Vinland between them and make the population christian.

I also think that Vinland could have an inuit vassal since Vinlanders inuits in this timeline probably would be firends (i can't see a Vinland with hostile relations to the natives, would never survive). I can see a Vinland trying to ally with the native tribes to throw the christian colonists out of North America.

 

[unmerged(26209)]

I would like to burrow this thread a bit.

Someone mentioned Iceland, and well, Iceland was originally settled by Norweigan aristocrats (not quite nobles... more like very wealthy farmers) who were fed up with the Norweigan king's powerabuse (and their own powerloss). Later, when christianity came to Iceland, the Norweigans came with them, and managed to pretty peacefully incorporate Iceland into Norway.

But... In Aberration, let's say the first chrisitian expiditon to Iceland failed misearbly... maybe even tried to kill the Icelandic heretics. Thus, Iceland remained hostile towards christianity, meaning that the Norweigans never got a foothold on Iceland. The result would be:
An Icelandic, pagan state, possibly with colonies in Greenland. Should be orthodox tech and know only of Scandinavia and the costal lands of northern Europe, to illustrate isolation.
Iceland had no government really, but was rather an anarchy, in the old political sense of the word. The only thing they remotely had was the grand ting, a sort of council when all the men (in practice only those who could afford the journey, the descendends of Norweigan aristocrats mostly, resulting a few families being powerful in the ting) would gather and discuss matters of importance, and make decisions. The grand ting could only make decision and not pull through with them, that was the responsibility of the individual (sort of like having, in America, a congress but no president or government otherwise).
Iceland would be very poor and have lously manpower, but its isolation alone would be an advantage, plus if someone, especially Norway, takes it, revoltrisk should increase until the island is made christian.

Some possible events for Iceland could be:
Greenland question, are the colonies worth it?
Vinland, attempt to rediscover (and following encounter with the Vinlandians)
The great ting of year X resulting in a civil war between two families, which one will the player support? (with the two families having different traits)
and so on


Comments?

 

[yourworstnightm]

Why not, pagan Vinlanders and Icelanders fighting over Greenland sounds aberrated enough to me.

 

[unmerged(23409)]

Vinland could be a pagan norwegian vassal that break free when Norway is annexed by Kalmar or Scotland, I don't think Vinland should get latin tech, but neither exotic. Something there between would be good. Also it would be a good idea for them to remain pagan, since that would make Vinland more special.

I think it would be something like this:
When Norway ended to´exist the pagan clans of Vinland denounced the foreign kings and declared independence. Later Vinlanders became active in the fight for Greenland, since their greenlandish brethren wnated to join Vinland instead of pledging allegiance to a foreign king, another threat to Vinland became the Icelandic republic that trhough a deal wit the irish decided to split Vinland between them and make the population christian.

I also think that Vinland could have an inuit vassal since Vinlanders inuits in this timeline probably would be firends (i can't see a Vinland with hostile relations to the natives, would never survive). I can see a Vinland trying to ally with the native tribes to throw the christian colonists out of North America.

But Vinland was very isolated from Norway, it was settled in the 10th/11th Century, and over 500 years since colonization, they would have deveolped a disticnt culture and not have Chrisitanized. And you would be giving Norway knowledge of America at the start of the game, and with Norwegian money (they have the ducats, an independent Vinland doesn't) there could be large colonies and if Norway gets Explorers or Conquistadors, it has a large base from which to expand from very early on.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Hmm, maybe we leave Norway out of this... an early Norwegian empire seems a bit unpleasant.

But Iceland would be nice, Iceland could very well be the Vinlanders early archnemesis before the irish get involved, also the Vinlanders should have good relations with the natives, that would be the only way they could have survived.