Vinland?

[MattyG]

Hmm, maybe we leave Norway out of this... an early Norwegian empire seems a bit unpleasant.

But Iceland would be nice, Iceland could very well be the Vinlanders early archnemesis before the irish get involved, also the Vinlanders should have good relations with the natives, that would be the only way they could have survived.

Vinland won't make it into the mod if anyone in Europe knows about them in 1419. Period. Too easy to be abused, and there is no logic to some Europeans knowing about them and not others. The only reason Henry the Navigator and the other early explorers are thought mad is that there is NOTHING once you travel 500 miles west from Spain. The world stops, and you fall off. All of Europe knows this. It's a principle of Aberration that won't be changing. It's an interesting idea, but not part of this mod.

So, that leaves Vinland - still a great idea - as disconnected from Europe for 5 centuries.

1. Yes, they must absolutely have developed reasonable relations with the native amercans. Not all, surely, but at least the ones they have not displaced to found their communities.

2. In 500 years, how much inter breeding with a native group? There has to be some, or else they will be all in0bred weirdos and very sickly.

3. And still the sticking point of size.Something that doesn't hamper the Europeans and also explains why they have not come to dominate most of the Atlantic coasts.

*Pock* back to all of you.

 

[unmerged(23409)]

I'm rubbish at Tennis.

Anyways, there would probably be quite a lot of inbreeding between the Micmac(?) and the Vinlanders, this would mean good relations or vice-versa. What exactly does your third point mean?

 

[unmerged(26209)]

IRL, Vinland was destroyed by angry Indians (they think anyway)... In Aberration, the Vikings could have been friendlier towards the Indians and thus managed to survive better. Breeding between the two would most likely have happened, othwise the Vikings would die out eventually I think.
Vinland should prolly have a lot of trade with Indian tribes, since they6 were Vikings afterall, traders and explorers by heart. =)

 

[MattyG]

I'm rubbish at Tennis.

Anyways, there would probably be quite a lot of inbreeding between the Micmac(?) and the Vinlanders, this would mean good relations or vice-versa. What exactly does your third point mean?

A reference to the previous postings about the extent of the Vinland nation and its techonology and seafaring skill. What has prevented them from exploring further and colonizing further? Because frankly we don't want a Vinland that covers Newfoundland, PEI, Acadie and eastern-Quebec.

 

[unmerged(26209)]

A reference to the previous postings about the extent of the Vinland nation and its techonology and seafaring skill. What has prevented them from exploring further and colonizing further? Because frankly we don't want a Vinland that covers Newfoundland, PEI, Acadie and eastern-Quebec.

A plague or famine in the 1100s that crippled Vinland, not completely enidng until the beginning of the game?

 

[MattyG]

IRL, Vinland was destroyed by angry Indians (they think anyway)... In Aberration, the Vikings could have been friendlier towards the Indians and thus managed to survive better. Breeding between the two would most likely have happened, othwise the Vikings would die out eventually I think.
Vinland should prolly have a lot of trade with Indian tribes, since they6 were Vikings afterall, traders and explorers by heart. =)

Absolutely agreed. Whatever the vinlanders are, I doubt they are still 'norsemen' by race or language.

That is, unless we have a storyline wherein the Mi'kmaq still don't accept the Vinlanders, and they withdraw. Ostensibly with the plan to return to Europe, but instead (re)discover greenland and settle there.

Of course, we could posit that more boats left on that Ericksson expedition than in RL, a number sufficient for a healthy population. They at first are accepted by the Mi'kmaq, but as they spread further, conflicts ensue and the Vinlanders win, not the Mi'kmaq.

But it then still raises the question, how do we logically limit their extent such that they are not abuseable by players?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

A reference to the previous postings about the extent of the Vinland nation and its techonology and seafaring skill. What has prevented them from exploring further and colonizing further? Because frankly we don't want a Vinland that covers Newfoundland, PEI, Acadie and eastern-Quebec.

Being few in number? The Viking Vinland colony wasn't prolly very large in number, so why would they try to start exploring futher, when they have hard enough job settling whole Newfoundland?

 

[unmerged(23409)]

A reference to the previous postings about the extent of the Vinland nation and its techonology and seafaring skill. What has prevented them from exploring further and colonizing further? Because frankly we don't want a Vinland that covers Newfoundland, PEI, Acadie and eastern-Quebec.

*Plays a crummy backhand*

There could have been several things, bad winters, hostile natives, the LIA, disease, rebellion...

*pock*

 

[unmerged(23409)]

And what everyone else says...

 

[MattyG]

Being few in number? The Viking Vinland colony wasn't prolly very large in number, so why would they try to start exploring futher, when they have hard enough job settling whole Newfoundland?

So, Bykyakiahm, you're suggesting they stayed few in number for 500 years. What kind of contraception were they using?

Once established, the colonies would grow and grow and spread. How and why would they NOT have done so?

 

[MattyG]

*Plays a crummy backhand*

There could have been several things, bad winters, hostile natives, the LIA, disease, rebellion...

*pock*

For 500 years. 500 years worth of disease, native wars and rebellion.

Also, quit it with the Little Ice Age. The period 1000 to 1419 covers one of the warmest the planet has experienced since before the Wisconsionian Ice Age. Warmer than the planet is now.

 

[unmerged(23409)]

The period 1000 to ~1300 was one of the warmest periods ever felt. If you look at http://geology.er.usgs.gov/eespteam/Atlantic/GPCabs.htm it says that the temperature fell 2-4 (I can't do the degree sign) c in 100 years.

Though it might not be that bad.

Anways, there could have been periods of growth interjected by natives, disease, famine and rebellion.

 

[MattyG]

Any math students out there?

Let's say there were 100 colonists. Let's assume 400 years. And I'd suggest a conservative growth rate in the population average at 6% annual. This also assumes no native people mixing with them to swell the numbers, but the 6% does take into account disease, warfare etc.

How many people would there be in this Vinland in 1420 AD?

 

[Incompetent]

Any math students out there?

I am, as a matter of fact.

6% per annum a conservative estimate? Sounds more like an environmentalist's feverish nightmare. I'll let you do the maths on what's wrong here :rofl:

Over the period 1000-1400, the world population increased by about 70%, though it probably would have been more like 100% without the Black Death. If we say the Vinlanders are extraordinarily fecund, we could say they now have a population of a few thousand (10 000 represents growth of more than 12%/decade, the fastest a colony will ever grow in EU2). But in the long run, limited space and resources are probably going to keep their population quite low anyway.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

100 people to begin with at 6% annual growth rate over 400 years will produce

13,253,973,743

Thirteen billion two hundred fifty three million nine hundred seventy three thousand seven hundred forty three people. rounded down

really really wrong expectation

that is if the growth ate takes into account deaths

and everyone is fking like rabbits in perpetuity

ill find some other tool than future value of an annuity estimator

Inheritance taxes. you can think of why would rich people not want them based on the example above

right now population growth rate worldwide is about 1.36%

that includes advanced countries where children do not die and sub saharan africa where infant mortality is above 50 %
http://www.wou.edu/las/physci/ch371/lecture/popgrowth/howlong.htm

 

[unmerged(23409)]

6%? Did you get that from paying too much attention to EUII city growth rates?

 

[unmerged(23409)]

Is Vinland going to be included? Matty says he wants it in, but I don't know what he wants to do with it...

 

[MattyG]

OK, so you smartarses all had a good little chuckle. I don't pretend to be a population historian. Yes, it was based on EU2 city/colony growth rates.

Thanks Incompetant for the closer estimate. Now we have something to wrangle with here, not just empty concepts.

I think that we could be a little more generous with the starting colonists, and still look at the Vinlanders being at 4000. This helps me, Captain Roadblock, from accepting why the Vinlanders still occupy only Vinland (Newfoundland) at the start of the game.

So, Vinland would start owning 3 provinces, with populations of 1K, 1K and 2K. These could be the Gander, Wabana and Placentia, or something moreinteresting like Placentia, Isle Royale and Nova Scotia. They would know south to Massachusetts, north to Belle Isle and west to Stadacone plus all relevent sea zones.

Whaddya think?

 

[unmerged(23409)]

OK, so you smartarses all had a good little chuckle. I don't pretend to be a population historian. Yes, it was based on EU2 city/colony growth rates.

Thanks Incompetant for the closer estimate. Now we have something to wrangle with here, not just empty concepts.

I think that we could be a little more generous with the starting colonists, and still look at the Vinlanders being at 4000. This helps me, Captain Roadblock, from accepting why the Vinlanders still occupy only Vinland (Newfoundland) at the start of the game.

So, Vinland would start owning 3 provinces, with populations of 1K, 1K and 2K. These could be the Gander, Wabana and Placentia, or something moreinteresting like Placentia, Isle Royale and Nova Scotia. They would know south to Massachusetts, north to Belle Isle and west to Stadacone plus all relevent sea zones.

Whaddya think?

I think that there is little, if any difference from what I was proposing and you are proposing.

Sounds good.

 

[MattyG]

Then I look forward eagerly to your outline of the events your propose for Vinland.