Walter's HIP Mod Mod

[irishboy55]

I've noticed Ireland in 1066 and Scotland are feudal but lack any towns or churches. Which basically weakens them quite a bit and when left to the AI takes a long long time to build them up. Any chance of adding them in at 1066, or even at a later start date like mid 12th century?

 

[G.Strategos]

Well if you want to play vanilla HIP you obviously need a separate folder.

Sure...

 

[Ese Khan]

I've noticed Ireland in 1066 and Scotland are feudal but lack any towns or churches. Which basically weakens them quite a bit and when left to the AI takes a long long time to build them up. Any chance of adding them in at 1066, or even at a later start date like mid 12th century?

It's actually a bit more complicated than that, since tribal and nomadic realms get more soldiers from empty holding slots. So the more empty holding slots there are, more soldiers they get. You'll notice that almost all tribal provinces have no extra holding, save for a couple of exceptions + provinces that have 4 or more holding slots and can therefore "afford" to lose some extra holding slot.

For SWMH's upcoming 1043 start date extension (no solid date yet), I brought back one extra holding (mostly a city holding) to Irish, Scottish, Cumbric, and Welsh provinces with more than 4 holding slots. Tribal realms benefit much from city holdings' gold income, but not so much from castle holding or temple holding, neither of which provides much gold or manpower to tribal liege.

 

[Emperor Walter]

I would consider adding Burgundy and Lombardy (and maybe even the Patrimonium until 1177, as the Pope and his territories were de jure part of the Empire in its early years and they certainly claimed dominion over Ferrara etc, which remained part of the Empire until its conquest by the Popes in the 16th century) to the de Jure HRE, at least until Anarchy, as these realms were seen as integral parts and vassals of the Emperors and they should have a claim to vassalize them if they break away. I'd consider preventing kings and emperors from pressing de jure claims until they have been coronated.

At the very least add a special "imperial reconquest" duchy CB for Italy, Burgundy, and the Patrimonium (outside of Latium) with the last potentially reducing Catholic moral authority. It's frustrating that the Byzantines get a tiered CB to claim everything up to Justinian's conquests, despite never setting foot in Italy again after they lost it to the Normans, but the Emperors have nothing to enforce their claims to key constituent kingdoms in perpetual union with the Imperial crown despite many of these remaining de jure and de facto part of the Empire until more than a century after the game's conclusion.

Burgundy was independent until 1033, so it shouldn't be part of the HRE at the game start.

Lombardy and the rest of Italy is another problem. It had been held by the HRE (except for some border regions like Pisa and Genoa which would technically disqualify it) for longer then 50 years, but the problem with making it dejure part of the HRE is that then it will never be independent since the HRE will always reconquer it if they break free. And it's already pretty problematic how rarely Italy actually gains independence like it did in real life. You have basically the same problem with the Pope.

 

[Emperor Walter]

I've noticed Ireland in 1066 and Scotland are feudal but lack any towns or churches. Which basically weakens them quite a bit and when left to the AI takes a long long time to build them up. Any chance of adding them in at 1066, or even at a later start date like mid 12th century?

That's because I just converted the tribal holdings into feudal ones. I might consider adding a few, but keep in mind that the Celtic areas of the british isles really were quite underdeveloped for some time.

 

[Undead Martyr]

Burgundy was independent until 1033, so it shouldn't be part of the HRE at the game start.

Lombardy and the rest of Italy is another problem. It had been held by the HRE (except for some border regions like Pisa and Genoa which would technically disqualify it) for longer then 50 years, but the problem with making it dejure part of the HRE is that then it will never be independent since the HRE will always reconquer it if they break free. And it's already pretty problematic how rarely Italy actually gains independence like it did in real life. You have basically the same problem with the Pope.

That's just it though- Italy as a whole didn't break free of the HRE during the period covered in the game, not in its entirety at least. Florence, Genoa, Milan, Pisa, Siena, Ferrara, Modena and the Veneto (until the late 15th century- the Venetians claimed Brescia and Bergamo as fiefs of Sigismund and did homage to him) were all de jure part of the HRE to 1806 and de facto within the Austrian (aka the Holy Roman Emperor from the 1400s to the end of the Empire) sphere of influence as well, and during the pre-Anarchy period i.e. 900s to 1200s, Italy was very much (yes, even Pisa and Genoa IMHO) a de facto as well as de jure vassal of the Empire, no more or less autonomous than say Toulouse or Aquitaine were for France.

Italian or Burgundian lords breaking free de facto in no way suggests that the Emperor should be utterly unable to reclaim them as his de jure subjects- because that is exactly what they were- but suggests rather that current mechanics make the HRE too stable and powerful and drastically undersells the power and intransigence of the Pope and the imperial vassals in the face of Imperial power. Hence my suggestion of tying de jure claims to coronation, or perhaps having three/four coronations for each of the constituent crowns. Moreover introduce some new mechanic similar to Imperial Decay (or repurposed from it to suit the HRE rather than Byzantium as the current system really shouldn't apply to any Empire without Imperial Administration IE the Byzantine system) to represent the failure of the Imperial dynasties to centralize/modernize.
In any case shifting Ferrara into Italy/Lombardy and making this kingdom and Burgundy de jure Imperial vassal should probably be done as this accurately reflects the de jure and de facto situation from the HRE's foundation to the very conclusion of the game; Spoleto, Ancona etc. would be outside of the Empire's de jure territory, but perhaps with a special CB to allow powerful Emperors to assert themselves a la the Staufers.

 

[Emperor Walter]

*crowned

I think it would be simpler to have such an "HRE Reconquest CB" reduce Catholic Religious Authority only if:
- It takes a duchy from the same de jure kingdom that contains the Papacy's capital; or
- It takes a duchy from the de facto Papacy itself.

This way, Religious Authority isn't reduced if (e.g.) the Pope has made Latium de jure Papal territory but hasn't conquered the Duchy of Ravenna, and the HRE takes the Duchy of Ravenna (still de jure part of the Patrimony, and so connected with the Papacy neither de jure nor de facto).

Would it be possible to have an event fire that automatically changes a county to a republic after a certain date? And the republic is led by someone from that province's culture? And further that the event only fires if the realm is led by someone who is of a different culture?

 

[Toa Kraka]

Would it be possible to have an event fire that automatically changes a county to a republic after a certain date?

Sure--but that would be a rather drastic piece of railroading, wouldn't it?

And the republic is led by someone from that province's culture? And further that the event only fires if the realm is led by someone who is of a different culture?

Sure, sure. I lack access to my computer at the moment, so you'll have to write the event yourself.

Trigger: Character is baron-tier and republican, with same culture as province; character's liege is non-republic, different culture, and this prov. isn't his capital
Effect: Character receives county; the city is set as the province's capital, and the character's govt. is set to republican (just in case giving him a castle or church changed his govt. type)

 

[Emperor Walter]

Sure--but that would be a rather drastic piece of railroading, wouldn't it?

Sure, sure. I lack access to my computer at the moment, so you'll have to write the event yourself.

Trigger: Character is baron-tier and republican, with same culture as province; character's liege is non-republic, different culture, and this prov. isn't his capital
Effect: Character receives county; the city is set as the province's capital, and the character's govt. is set to republican (just in case giving him a castle or church changed his govt. type)

Well what I'm thinking is this. For northern Italy after say 1100 or so have an event that flips all non-Italian, non-republican, and non-ecclesiastical territories to republics. Then have a second event basically turning Lombardy into a titular title and replacing it with Kingdoms in like Milan, Florence, etc. This way they will still be under the vassalage of the HRE but they will be very likely to rebel since they will be wrong government, wrong culture, and non-dejure.

I don't really think this is railroading. The basic problem is that the game doesn't really do a very good job of determining who should be in charge in a province and so the transition away from feudalism to cities in Italy never happens. So to me it makes sense that barring a native monarchy (like what happened with the Medici's and the Sforza's for example), they should more or less always be republics, because cities were the dominant faction, not feudalism, and this had to do with the simple facts of economics in Northern Italy. I'm thinking something similar to what I outlined above could happen with Switzerland in like 1270 or so. Plus this would allow Lombardy to be added as a dejure part of the HRE at the game start but then have it break up like it did historically. I'm not really sure of any other regions where Republican urbanism was a major thing; I thought about Flanders but that didn't really last and was supported by the count IIRC.

 

[Emperor Walter]

I've noticed Ireland in 1066 and Scotland are feudal but lack any towns or churches. Which basically weakens them quite a bit and when left to the AI takes a long long time to build them up. Any chance of adding them in at 1066, or even at a later start date like mid 12th century?

I've calculated rough demographic estimates for the British isles in 1066, so there will probably be some changes happening in the next major release.

Wales is fine, but Scotland should be half the size of England, and Ireland about 60%.

Also judging by the gross demographic imbalance, the HRE should be reduced by 50% of it's holdings.

 

[antidualist]

I've calculated rough demographic estimates for the British isles in 1066, so there will probably be some changes happening in the next major release.

Wales is fine, but Scotland should be half the size of England, and Ireland about 60%.

Also judging by the gross demographic imbalance, the HRE should be reduced by 50% of it's holdings.

Where are you getting those numbers from? The one's for Scotland and Ireland compared to England seems very high. Once source I found for 1000AD suggests that the population of england is likely to be 1.5 million while that of scotland is 0.3 and Ireland is 0.6 so rougly 20% and 40% rather than 50 and 60. Those numbers just seem very high given the relative wealth and fertility of the 3 countries farmlands.

 

[Toa Kraka]

For northern Italy after say 1100 or so have an event that flips all non-Italian, non-republican, and non-ecclesiastical territories to republics. Then have a second event basically turning Lombardy into a titular title and replacing it with Kingdoms in like Milan, Florence, etc.

All at once? That seems a little abrupt. Maybe it could be more gradual.

I don't really think this is railroading. The basic problem is that the game doesn't really do a very good job of determining who should be in charge in a province and so the transition away from feudalism to cities in Italy never happens.

It's railroading because it has no relation at all to the in-game situation.

Solution that doesn't count as railroading: Any de jure kingdom that contains or adjoins the capitals of at least three merchant republics will start to experience the urbanization event. This will make Italy (which contains or adjoins Pisa, Genoa, and Venice) flip, but also doesn't railroad the situation inevitably for Italy, and allows the same conditions to arise elsewhere.

 

[Emperor Walter]

Where are you getting those numbers from? The one's for Scotland and Ireland compared to England seems very high. Once source I found for 1000AD suggests that the population of england is likely to be 1.5 million while that of scotland is 0.3 and Ireland is 0.6 so rougly 20% and 40% rather than 50 and 60. Those numbers just seem very high given the relative wealth and fertility of the 3 countries farmlands.

What is your source? That seems kinda low.

And anyway I reduced the number of holdings in the HRE by about 100. This is slightly higher then I'd like but it brings it into rough demographic proportion with the rest of Europe.

 

[Emperor Walter]

All at once? That seems a little abrupt. Maybe it could be more gradual.

It's railroading because it has no relation at all to the in-game situation.

Solution that doesn't count as railroading: Any de jure kingdom that contains or adjoins the capitals of at least three merchant republics will start to experience the urbanization event. This will make Italy (which contains or adjoins Pisa, Genoa, and Venice) flip, but also doesn't railroad the situation inevitably for Italy, and allows the same conditions to arise elsewhere.

I mean, the problem is that short of a mongol invasion or other massive social catastrophe, Urbanization was going to develop in Italy for reasons the game simply doesn't really model well (namely that the cities grew more powerful then the nobility and made them irrelevant). Strictly speaking supposing the game were to go on indefinitely virtually everywhere should flip to a city. I don't see how it's railroading anymore then the Mongols showing up in the East is.

The other problem is that other then Switzerland and a few Imperial cities, this sort of thing didn't really happen anywhere else during the timeframe, and it wasn't really tied to existing republics.

I suppose you could try to randomize where the "lombard league" fires, but thats pretty problematic since it emerged in Northern Italy for specific and within the confines of the game basically inevitable reasons, and without it the HRE has an unreasonably easy time holding Italy. As for when it should fire, gradualism and randomness are fine, but by the 1160s all of Northern italy should flip to cities except for land held by native Italians and theocracies, and after that it shouldn't be possible to flip it back except by other Italians (while that area was partially conquered by foreigners during the Italian Wars, thats out of the scope of the game, and for simplicity I think it should stay that way).

 

[Arko]

I don't really think this is railroading.

I don't see how it's railroading anymore then the Mongols showing up in the East is.

So it is railroading

More seriously, anything set to happen more or less at a fixed date or small time period is railroading.
You say cities in northern Italy should inevitably boom ? what if black death pops say, around 1050 ? (okay the effects of the blackdeath were inflated by population density, especially in cities).

You might try to search for favorable conditions that lead to the situation in northern Italy, year is definetly not one. Weak emperor ? too strong and oppressive one ? high prosperity ? number of universities built ? Pope vs Emperor rivalry ? technology level ?

 

[Toa Kraka]

I don't see how it's railroading anymore then the Mongols showing up in the East is.

Of course the Mongol invasion is railroaded. That's necessary because its causes occur off the edge of the map.

The other problem is that other then Switzerland and a few Imperial cities, this sort of thing didn't really happen anywhere else during the timeframe, and it wasn't really tied to existing republics.

You might try calculating the ratio of total gold invested in urban vs. feudal buildings in each province. E.g., Province A has 5000 gold in cities and city buildings and only 2000 gold in castles and castle buildings, so it probably should flip to republicanism. Increasing burgher taxes will squeeze the cities dry and prevent them from developing, since the barons will have no money to build.

Still, even a fake in-game reason for urbanization is better than no in-game reason at all, in my opinion.

I suppose you could try to randomize where the "lombard league" fires, but thats pretty problematic since it emerged in Northern Italy for specific and within the confines of the game basically inevitable reasons, and without it the HRE has an unreasonably easy time holding Italy.

You could try increasing the opinion penalty for a liege of a different culture group.

 

[zijistark]

You might try calculating the ratio of total gold invested in urban vs. feudal buildings in each province. E.g., Province A has 5000 gold in cities and city buildings and only 2000 gold in castles and castle buildings, so it probably should flip to republicanism. Increasing burgher taxes will squeeze the cities dry and prevent them from developing, since the barons will have no money to build.

Yes, this is a smack in the right direction for trying to define non-railroaded conditions for such a thing. I figured that I'd add a bit about my own design principles when considering mechanics for EMF: I try to ensure that all outcomes emerge in a "story-driven" fashion.

For example, if a feudal state is going to become a republic, there should always be a series of plausible events which occurred to lead to that outcome in which characters were allowed to make choices according to their properties (sometimes fudged to favor emergent outcomes) all along the way.

Even if most or all of this is in the form of hidden events or the like, I still consider this story-driven. Preferably, the events can actually be encountered, interacted with, and possibly narrated to others in some way so that it truly fulfills the "build a story" goal. Note that when I say "events," I do mean in the general sense: diploactions count, wars, plots, ambitions, or anything clear to the player automatically through the UI counts (e.g., title history can often be seen as a super-summarized narration of a story), etc.

 

[ifail]

I've calculated rough demographic estimates for the British isles in 1066, so there will probably be some changes happening in the next major release.

Wales is fine, but Scotland should be half the size of England, and Ireland about 60%.

Also judging by the gross demographic imbalance, the HRE should be reduced by 50% of it's holdings.

yes pls at least brign the mod to fairly historical army sizes

 

[Undead Martyr]

Just a few musings.

Berbers/Maghrebi cultures should definitely be raiding overseas like the Norse did, Vanilla gave them the ability already but HIP hasn't added it yet, and the Magyras also need to end up as the menace they were in the 9th and early 10th centuries. Additionally all the Carolingian kingdoms should probably be elective gavelkind in the Old Gods start... maybe add in the Kingdom of Provence/Lower Burgundy as well, with event and/or decision to reunite them if they are joined together.

Moreover duchies should ideally act like viceroyalties early on, gradually and inexorably shifting towards strict feudal succession by the 12th and 13th centuries. Dukes in the HRE were pretty much hired and fired at the emperor's will, their power based on holding extensive territories more than having a higher rank.

There could be some mechanic for western Europe/early feudal governments to model the fluctuating and non-institutionalized power of early medieval kings: let's call it majesty.

Majesty ranges from 0 to 100, defaulting to 50 with no effect. Like Imperial decay it increases/decreases levy size, vassal opinion, and army morale, but unlike decay it's mostly determined by short term events and the person of the king rather than institutions.
Majesty increases for having non-elective succession, being a relative/dynasty member of your successor, winning wars and battles (in person), having high crown authority, having high prestige, having good traits (strong, genius, brilliant strategist), and is hurt by provinces in the kingdom being looted or sieged, by losing battles (in person) or wars, being underage or female, having low martial/diplomacy/prestige, having a regency, getting excommunicated, increasing crown authority (as a temporary penalty parallel to the opinion penalty) or by civil wars or usurpations.

In addition to the penalty if majesty is low enough vassals can invite neighboring dukes/kings to seize the kingdom for themselves (as happened in Italy with Otto the Great, the Bosonids of Provence and Arnulf of Carinthia) and/or plot to usurp the kingdom for themselves, a la the Capets in France. The Pope should also be very, very active in Imperial politics, giving claims to various ambitious lords if he doesn't like the current emperor. Majesty could also be a cap for changing crown laws and revoking/creating titles, for instance. The HRE and Italy (as well as Burgundy and Lotharingia to an extent) aren't really modeled that well- even strong kings could and did face problems if the monarch's power was weak or they were unlucky enough to be raided by all of their neighbors.

In regards to the Old Gods, in place of the German-based HRE (which is somewhat anachronstic) I'd add a titular Carolingian Empire held by Louis of Italy, with the Pope as his vassal, and an unformable "Carolingian Realms" encompassing all of the Karling kingdoms. "Italy" de jure encompasses all of the Patrimonium save perhaps Rome (and maybe also Corisca?), mainly to prevent a "king of the Patrimonium" forming from Elective Gavelkind, and also allows the Duke of Spoleto to both participate in elections and desire the crown as they did historically.

Upon the succession of a new emperor all independent kings in the Carolingian Realms can either acknowledge the title or not; if any fail to do so causes the empire's destruction. From then on it becomes possible to reform the Empire, as either HRE currently in the mod, as a king of Italy who manages to overpower his vassals (as for instance in the excellent Sons of the Harlot Empress timeline on Alt-History), or with a generic "restore the EMpire of Charlemagne" for anyone who holds/Controls Italy and has a large demesne within the Carolingian Realms; this will cause the HRE to form as it currently does, but only if the Pope agrees- the papal coronation was an essential prerequisite for the Imperial title from Charlemagne on through to the Habsburgs. Regardless of how it forms it should include Rome and the Patrimonium as de jure and de facto vassals, the former being "restored" upon the Empire's formation. In the 11th century, when the Investiture Controversy kicks off, the Pope should (usually) break free, gaining independence, taking the Patrimonium out of the de jure empire, and enforcing Papal Investiture; this would also presage republicanization and the Lombard League. The Pope's Support in the Lombard cities was a vital factor in their success; some sort of Guelf-Ghibelline system (with accompanying traits) to represent the varying loyalties of the cities.

In regards to the proposed urbanization event, the OTL kingdom of Italy went through more than a century of devastation, on top of the Gothic Wars and Lombard invasion before this, yet still recovered in time to become one of the wealthiest and most urbanized areas of Europe. IMHO some sort of tension between city and lord was probably inevitable. That said the communes eventually succumbed to despots- segnoria who established de facto (and in many cases de jure) hereditary succession- after the 11th and 12th century communes should come (usually) the despotism, perhaps a unique "Signoria" feudal government which can hold cities without penalty, created at the behest of the Emperor who elevates the lords to dukes.

 

[Emperor Walter]

Well anyway the new version with corrected demographics is up, I don't have time right now to go through everything that's been said.