Werewolf Lite CCIII : Ghosts!

[Capt. Kiwi]

Ok, now it's over I have one big question for vain:

WHY did you pretend to be a wolf? What was your deeper purpose, your brilliant tactic?

Vainglory already answered, in this thread, before he was lynched:

Yeah well. Hebelecan's running of the JL leaves much to be desired. I'd rather be stuck next to someone having an epileptic fit while holding an M60, than in a WW with Hebelecan as the seer.

Except that I am the wolf and his incompetence will bring me victory!

EDIT

Mr Kiwi ruined my fun in Big CVIII. Besides if I run interference for a guy I suspect is a wolf then I might be accused of breaking this rule "§5. - Alliances and Feuds which aren't based on your characters or roles in the game between players are forbidden." I'd rather not be banned.

I'm not a wolf, I just hoped you'd lynch me before Athalcor because I'd rather go at a time and place of my choosing than watch this trainwreck JL take me out for supporting Athalcor when it was the logical thing to do. Hebelecan would have been convicted in any court, anywhere in the world, the way he tied himself up in knots.

I know you'll lynch me anyway, and I don't care. I'll laugh hard when I'm proved to be a villager. It would only be sweeter if the village then died because it's 4 to 2 (-1 village to hunt and it's game over).

However I think EL is right now and there's only one wolf left, which means it's 5 v 1, so if I'm lynched the game continues with 3 v 1 tomorrow.

XenomorphII is the last wolf. He was the last person to vote. It stood at Athalcor 4 and Hebelecan 3. He saw which way the wind was blowing and decided to save himself by voting Athalcor out - which is why he didn't post anything except his vote. If he'd tied things up and made it 4 to 1 then he'd probably have been lynched today, or the next day if you'd fixated on me. If he votes Athalcor, though, it makes Enkhuush and I likely suspects. Enkhuush was the other Athalcor saver. By the time you've lynched both of us innocents it's gone from 5:1 to 3:1 (lynch me and a hunt) to 1:1 victory when you lynch Enkhuush and there's a hunt.

Enjoy your game, guys.

It's probably safe to assume his explanation is fully true, from his point of view at least.

There probably needs to be some sort of guideline that statements in one game shouldn't be dependent on ongoing activity in the other - this explanation came out when in the ongoing big game Vainglory said he'd never been anything but a boring villager (while he was being accused here), then not long after "admitted" being a wolf here.

 

[joebthegreat]

Well I'd say it's bad show to fake out yourself just because you assume the JL is going to act in a certain way. I'd also say you did more to harm the village by outing yourself than any other action this game.

This is what gets me:

I know you'll lynch me anyway, and I don't care. I'll laugh hard when I'm proved to be a villager.

This is the wrong answer (I scream in horrifying rage and start beating random people in the face when I see this tactic used by people). You aren't an obvious villager to everyone else in the game. Laugh hard when you're proven as a villager, but it only makes you the worse player for both 1) making yourself look like a baddie when you're not, and 2) taking full attention off of potential baddies by creating a bandwagon day on yourself.

If you had defended yourself and tried to catch the wolf, instead of being defeatist, assuming what the JL would have done, and ruining an entire days worth of discussion, then you could laugh at the village for lynching you (I'd still disagree, but I wouldn't have an urge to kick you like I do right now). You took the cowards way out and refused to fight for your survival, and refused to fight to catch a wolf. You failed. You can try to pass the blame onto a mishandled JL or a foolish village, but that doesn't make it true. No matter what mistakes they made, they at least tried to play the game. You absolutely and outright failed.

One last note: Those people who were so bad and that you're laughing at for lynching you... They caught a wolf and won this game.

---

I care about you EUROO7... even though you've done nothing to help the village in the slightest in the past 305490389q games you've played.

 

[THE_SPLIT]

Who is this kiwie birdie guy? From my point what vain did was stupid, mean and against most moral rules set up by this game! No matter what side you want to argue, a villager would never admit to being a wolf this late in the game, as there is no benefit except to put a shadow of doubt on yourself. Vain did this to spite the seer, myself and the rest of the village. If any of the old guard want to raise their voice for the defense of vain please do so... If not I urge everyone to give vainglory a few games time time out to think about his behavior

 

[EUROO7]

I care about you EUROO7... even though you've done nothing to help the village in the slightest in the past 305490389q games you've played.

I take pride in that.

Not just because I've been a baddie the past 305490389q games I've played.

Also: Go easy on Vainglory. He's only starting to play. Soon enough he'll realise the objective of the game is to ensure victory for your side, and that some schemes don't have great chance for success.

 

[THE_SPLIT]

I take pride in that.

Not just because I've been a baddie the past 305490389q games I've played.

Also: Go easy on Vainglory. He's only starting to play. Soon enough he'll realise the objective of the game is to ensure victory for your side, and that some schemes don't have great chance for success.

Euro, with all due respect, can you honestly say that vain showed good sportmanship? You were a noob, I was a noob, all of were noobs... But did anyone of us show this behavior? Why should we respect a sore loser?

 

[Capt. Kiwi]

Who is this kiwie birdie guy? From my point what vain did was stupid, mean and against most moral rules set up by this game! No matter what side you want to argue, a villager would never admit to being a wolf this late in the game, as there is no benefit except to put a shadow of doubt on yourself. Vain did this to spite the seer, myself and the rest of the village. If any of the old guard want to raise their voice for the defense of vain please do so... If not I urge everyone to give vainglory a few games time time out to think about his behavior

I'm Mr Kiwi, and Mr Kiwi is me. I called him out on his comment that he had only ever been a villager in the big game, when he was simultaneously "admitting" being a wolf here. The somewhat messy situation where the two games were interlocked led to him posting his explanation in both threads while he still could as an active player in both. That's about the extent of my interest in the matter.

 

[EUROO7]

Euro, with all due respect, can you honestly say that vain showed good sportmanship? You were a noob, I was a noob, all of were noobs... But did anyone of us show this behavior? Why should we respect a sore loser?

I really can't say anything. What did he do, I haven't read anything.

 

[Taiisatai64]

My first game and I win! I even used some analysis, yay me

 

[reis91]

He pulled an AOK. While being a villager.

Split, admitting you are a wolf is not an offense in WW. As long as you follow the rules, you will not get any bans. There isn't any rule that forbids a goodie from outing himself as a wolf. It was already done, sometimes it is even a valid tactic. You may argue that is bad form to wreck your own side out of spite, but that is up to each one to determine. There aren't right and wrong ways to play WW, there are normal ways and ways that may get you metagamed and hated, but the latter are still legit.
Vain was actually playing well, imo. The JL failed big on the day where hebel was first run up, playing into the wolves's hand, and Athalcor was banking on distrust for hebel when he decided to shift hunt target. Of course, when you enter tunnel-vision mode, focusing only on your righteous theory, **** happens. Also, just because he outed himself as a wolf, doesn't mean that you have to vote him, you know? Clever opponents may exploit that behavior.

 

[joebthegreat]

If someone outs himself as a wolf you vote him, because he's either a wolf or he's a villager harming his village.

I fail to see how Vainglory's action can in any way be perceived as a valid tactic. It did nothing to expose wolves. It did nothing to protect the JL. It did nothing for his side. Why was it valid? Because he didn't agree with how the JL handled itself when hebelecan was run up? That's such bullshit. If you have a problem with their tactics then state it. If you're so smart then analyze the game and find the wolf, instead of giving up and trying to take the village down with you.

Sure, there's nothing in the rules against doing what Vainglory did. That does NOT make it in any way a valid tactic. There's technically nothing in the rules preventing me from outing my entire pack on day 1. Is that in the spirit of the game?

My righteous theory? Help your team win and try to win while you're at it. There are lots of different debates about what's a valid baddie tell or pack behavior. There are different opinions on how you should analyze and play. I'm fine with that. I'm not fine with someone trying to screw their own team. Never. If you do that you can consider yourself listed forever as a worthless teammate in my book.

 

[EUROO7]

Your book is also the book of mormon.

 

[joebthegreat]

Your book is also the book of mormon.

No that's my mom's book.

 

[reis91]

If someone outs himself as a wolf you vote him, because he's either a wolf or he's a villager harming his village.

Or he has any other motive for wanting himself lynched, like saving an important goodie, or using his brutal trait to wipe out a pack, or using a sorcerer's no-lynch ability, etc... this assuming he is a goodie, of course. I already had this discussion with someone... you are making rules exactly meant to be exploited. You can't play WW with rules, you need to analyse each situation separately. If someone outs himself as a wolf, instead of mindlessly voting, you should think "Why is he doing that"? Attempting to put the entire blame on him when the village didn't even bother to think about the above...

I fail to see how Vainglory's action can in any way be perceived as a valid tactic. It did nothing to expose wolves. It did nothing to protect the JL. It did nothing for his side. Why was it valid? Because he didn't agree with how the JL handled itself when hebelecan was run up? That's such bullshit. If you have a problem with their tactics then state it. If you're so smart then analyze the game and find the wolf, instead of giving up and trying to take the village down with you.

Sure, there's nothing in the rules against doing what Vainglory did. That does NOT make it in any way a valid tactic. There's technically nothing in the rules preventing me from outing my entire pack on day 1. Is that in the spirit of the game?

My righteous theory? Help your team win and try to win while you're at it. There are lots of different debates about what's a valid baddie tell or pack behavior. There are different opinions on how you should analyze and play. I'm fine with that. I'm not fine with someone trying to screw their own team. Never. If you do that you can consider yourself listed forever as a worthless teammate in my book.

Oh, but you could out your pack. You'd be meta'ed for the rest of your live, but you could, sure... you take responsibility for what you do.

 

[Vainglory]

Before giving a better explanation:

Your book is also the book of mormon.

Typo. Book of moron more like.

If someone outs himself as a wolf you vote him, because he's either a wolf or he's a villager harming his village.

They were already going to lynch me, genius. No matter what I said or did. The suggestion that switching my vote when Split said to would have saved me is ludicrous.

I fail to see how Vainglory's action can in any way be perceived as a valid tactic. It did nothing to expose wolves. It did nothing to protect the JL. It did nothing for his side. Why was it valid? Because he didn't agree with how the JL handled itself when hebelecan was run up? That's such bullshit. If you have a problem with their tactics then state it. If you're so smart then analyze the game and find the wolf, instead of giving up and trying to take the village down with you.

Find out who the wolf is? Ask Boris ze Spider and Athalcor, I was pretty sure Enkhuush was the last wolf once Athalcor got lynched.

So why didn't I say so? Erm, have you been following this thread? Every thing I said to do, the village did opposite. If I'd named Enkhuush they'd have ignored me. Better to name Xeno, if they finally start listening I get the last laugh, if they do the opposite I get the satisfaction of having utilized a Batman gambit successfully.

In the event they just ignored me. I'm very glad they were able to deduce that it was Enkhuush, because prior to that they'd totally ignored any sort of reasoning. Tai deduced that it was Enkhuush, but in part because he thought Xeno could have tied the game and won instantly. Mathematically that isn't the case.

 

[EUROO7]

Typo. Book of moron more like.

Let's not be disrespectful.

 

[Vainglory]

Let's not be disrespectful.

Joeb's been a jackass and an idiot for several pages now, like saying that posting something that could be interpreted as implying that I have or do not have information the entire village isn't privy to is banned. The rules just say "Don't reveal information" not "Don't say anything that a villager could potentially, no matter how unlikely that is, interpret as meaning you have information, or do not have information, that isn't already public". He then threatened to meta-game me forever. Which is actually explicitly banned by the rules. He is, therefore, a hypocrite.

It takes a fair bit to annoy me but he's well and truly crossed that threshold.

 

[joebthegreat]

They were already going to lynch me, genius. No matter what I said or did. The suggestion that switching my vote when Split said to would have saved me is ludicrous.

F*** off you coward. Assume all you like, you never gave them any other chance but to lynch you. Don't talk like you know what they were going to do.

Yes you defended a wolf and yes you would have been a top suspect. Getting lynched after a day of full analysis and discussion is NOT the same thing as turning an entire day into a pure bandwagon with no discussion.

Find out who the wolf is? Ask Boris ze Spider and Athalcor, I was pretty sure Enkhuush was the last wolf once Athalcor got lynched.

You're either a liar or a stupid coward. You could have pointed to enkhuush with reasoning, but you took the cowards way out because "I want my death to be my control".

So why didn't I say so? Erm, have you been following this thread? Every thing I said to do, the village did opposite. If I'd named Enkhuush they'd have ignored me. Better to name Xeno, if they finally start listening I get the last laugh, if they do the opposite I get the satisfaction of having utilized a Batman gambit successfully.

Everything you said to do the village did opposite? Wow. I'm so sorry. That's obviously a good reason to keep your suspected wolf a secret and not give the village a chance to even entertain your notion.

If people don't listen to you you can point and show where you were right. You chose the coward's path and stated blatantly incorrect information. Your statements didn't do anything to help or hinder the village in suspecting Xeno, it was obvious after you were a villager that you were pulling the name out of your ass and that there was no point to listening to any of it.

So basically, to get back at a village for not listening to you, you spouted information that the village had no reason to listen to? Make the village listen to you with a valid argument, don't just whine and try to drag the village down "for the last laugh".

In the event they just ignored me. I'm very glad they were able to deduce that it was Enkhuush, because prior to that they'd totally ignored any sort of reasoning. Tai deduced that it was Enkhuush, but in part because he thought Xeno could have tied the game and won instantly. Mathematically that isn't the case.

They deduced and found the last wolf. The JL managed to find and scan two wolves. This village did a good job catching baddies. You pulled a waste of time stunt.

So f*** you. Your stunt was pathetic and poor sportsmanship. The village did a great job and deserved their win. You deserved death and if you continue to play such a petty game, trying to drag your team down because "*sob* they aren't listening to me. They don't deserve to win! *sob*"... well...

You can go straight to hell. Enjoy your failure, I'm sure the village will enjoy it's well earned victory.

 

[EUROO7]

What the hell is going on?

Was it that serious?

brb, reading thread.

 

[reis91]

Nothing that hasn't been done, although the reasoning is beyond comprehension...

Also, tone down on the insults, please.

 

[Vainglory]

Vain was actually playing well, imo. The JL failed big on the day where hebel was first run up, playing into the wolves's hand, and Athalcor was banking on distrust for hebel when he decided to shift hunt target. Of course, when you enter tunnel-vision mode, focusing only on your righteous theory, **** happens. Also, just because he outed himself as a wolf, doesn't mean that you have to vote him, you know? Clever opponents may exploit that behavior.

Wow, thanks Reis I appreciate that.

Athalcor and I were in contact, I didn't trust him very much but I had no information to give him and he couldn't learn anything from my being in contact with him. Sure he could assume that no seer would ever contact a wolf, but then what better way for a seer to hide from the wolves than by befriending one of them? It's convoluted but the game got that convoluted. All I could know is that he wasn't in the JL or the seer - if he was he'd scan me after the first contact.

If you're wondering my purpose in contacting Athalcor was to ask him to utilize ties for vote data. It wouldn't matter if he were a wolf, if he ignored me I put him on my suspects list, if he does what I say I get vote data.

Hebelecan then exposes himself to Athalcor. If you want a witch hunt how about you go after the seer who botched things so badly? Athalcor's best course of action right now is to let Hebelecan get lynched and hunt Najs. But Athalcor decided to raise the stakes:

To : Vainglory
Date : 2011-06-16 06:31
Title : WW Lite
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really have to appreciate your enthusiasm and the effort you put into publishing the theories. Too bad they were a bit wrong. I am a wolf.

I actually played a bit of a hazard in the last 24 hours - I made the actions to look too irrational so I thought they will think that a sane me-wolf would not do that.

I relied on two aces:
The fact that hebel managed to lynch innocent Esemesas and...
you. You and your large accusations and theories.

But the JL was too strong (I thought that hebel won't be able to muster enough support) and so I died.

I am sorry that I exploited you but this is werewolf, so nothing personal. Hopefully in the next game we will be in the same team.

Athalcor thought that no village would believe Hebelecan and so Hebelecan would get lynched. He also thought he could rely on me to support him. He was wrong about everything. Everyone believed Hebelecan, and even I nearly jumped ship as Hebelecan knows from PMs to him.

You guys ought to thank Athalcor, he over-thought it and that won you the game. If he'd let Hebelecan get lynched and hunted Najs there'd be one JL member left who couldn't be sure that Athalcor was a wolf (Hebelecan wouldn't have scanned him) and had no other leads. Instead he let himself get scanned and then his packmate (Enkhuush) voted to save him. Just think about it if Hebelecan had been lynched. Esemesas would have been next for running up Hebelecan.

As I said, go witch hunt Hebelecan. Go back and read the thread: I said Esemesas' theory was wrong when he made it, but then suddenly there's a pile-on for Esemesas. Good move, JL, it's not at all suspicious that the first guy to name a potential pack, and a vote counter, would get voted up suddenly? That made me suspicious of Hebelecan.

Then Hebelecan directed a JL member to make a fake outing of an innocent player to save himself. If Hebelecan flukes hitting a wolf he's fine, but odds are he doesn't - and he didn't. So then Hebelecan is saved by a fake outing and his JL mouthpiece is hunted. Say you're a wolf and your packmate gets run up, why not tap a random villager on the shoulder and give them a fake outing of another player, then hunt the mouthpiece that night. The mouthpiece can't then reveal who duped him, and if he names you prior to that he runs the risk of exposing the real seer. You only save your packmate for one night, although if he then declares himself the true seer Hebelecan style he can survive for another night while the village pursues another target!

Not only is a fake outing dumb in itself, Hebelecan then compounded it by making it unnecessary: he then outed himself to Athalcor. Athalcor's vote is enough to save Hebelecan if Athalcor is a villager. This makes the fake outing useless and just suspicious for no point - and got his JL member Najs hunted.

Hebelecan then declares himself to be the seer with a story riddled with inconsistencies. I very nearly swapped sides, Hebelecan knew this and never told his JL, had he told his JL they could have picked between "He's a wolf and was just playing a very complicated triple game" or "He's a villager and Hebelecan was unconvincing". He gets my vote and the village could have lynched Enkhuush yesterday instead of it running right down to the wire. Yet again Hebelecan dropped the ball.

Heck even if Hebelecan had just been a bit more open and friendly, I'd have jumped ship. Athalcor was friendly the whole time, Hebelecan was rude. This doesn't indicate anything as to good/bad player. What it does is make it look like Hebelecan isn't sincerely trying to convince people but Athalcor is.

Lastly, Hebelecan showed himself incapable of reasoning. If he'd named his JL member I'd have jumped ship. Let's say he named his JL member and I didn't jump ship - Hebelecan can make that public and I'm going to be lynched for sure. If I do then he could have been reasonably sure I was a villager. There was no risk outing his last JL member because that member can't contact anyone else without the seer. So what if they get hunted there are no cursed/blessed/GA/other packs one villager gone is much like another unless they're inside a functioning JL. One person in a JL is not functioning.

Instead Hebelecan guarantees they'll lynch the last vote counter and last person with any theories, and someone who is trying to make rational choices. I got it wrong on Athalcor and Hebelecan but only because Hebelecan's behavior was not ration for a seer, and Athalcor's was not rational for a wolf. Xeno, EL, and Tai all stepped up to the plate and counted votes and made theories once I was gone which was good to see. My problem really lies with Hebelecan and Split who were foolish and rude in equal measures. The village should thank Athalcor for over thinking it and canceling out Hebelecan's blundering around as a seer.