What could EU5 learn/take from recent Pdx games

[juanen]

What I expect from eu5 is to have a better core than eu4. Better ai in every aspec, easier and more tools to modding, and mechanics more integrated and interrelated to each other, so that it feels more like playing one big system rather than many small ones.
The move from eu3 to eu4 is not comparable with the one that we'll have from eu4 to eu5, and the company worked much differently back then. It'll be something more similar to ck2-ck3.

 

[Johan]

While this is a fantastic philosophy to have I hope to Gods this doesn't mean that mission trees will have to be transplanted to EU5

I don't think the current mission tree design we have in eu4 is very good. There are lots of great gameplay experiences that our content designers have created with it that many many people like to play though.

Me personally, I think that the Imperator Mission System is far superior and would make for a more adaptive, more immersive and more expandable experience.

 

[Travis_Bickle]

This is against my philosophy. Maybe some people may have disliked design changes from eu3 to eu4, we included pretty much every content from eu3 included in eu4.

While a fair amount of people were unsatisifed with the amount of content Imperator had compared to other games, it did have all features from EU:Rome that worked, and many more added.

Completely fair point Johan.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I know you guys will do a great job on EU5.

 

[Vulkandrache]

I don't think the current mission tree design we have in eu4 is very good

From the very start the whole design had this air of "cheap way to add content",
and for quite a while thats really what it was.
Its only been recently (Origins really) that the missions have been used to create actualy interesting gameplay
that isnt just "chains of perma claims".

 

[I like wars and maps]

What do people get from complaining about the same damn thing in every game as if it will ever make a difference? What do people get out of getting preemptively outraged that they can't have the impossible?

What, indeed, does anybody get out of posting their opinions on a forum?

What I "get" is I think this commonly held opinion is ridiculous and counterproductive to useful discussion about, say, what features ought to be prioritised in a new iteration of a game series, so I want to post something disagreeing with it. Precisely as you wanted to post something disagreeing with me.

(Oh, and "apologia" is a formal defence of a position; not something I was doing, since I was in fact attacking a position. You're actually closer to doing apologia here, which isn't a good or bad thing in any case.)

Very easy. They get the devs to listen and notice complaints the playerbase has. They will act on it if they feel like its important enough to the players enjoyment. Unless you wanna say EU4 would be in a better spot if nobody said anything on 1,31.

 

[Kyoumen]

Very easy. They get the devs to listen and notice complaints the playerbase has. They will act on it if they feel like its important enough to the players enjoyment. Unless you wanna say EU4 would be in a better spot if nobody said anything on 1,31.

They aren't "the playerbase". They're people posting on a forum. Which is, coincidentally, also what I am. So when I disagree, that's as much "the playerbase" as anyone else is.

I will also note I didn't say nobody should ever complain about anything. I have complained about things myself, in fact! The trick is that in this case I disagree with the complaint and do not wish the devs to take notice of it, which, since I am apparently "the playerbase", is just as much feedback as the complaint itself was.

 

[Johan]

Its only been recently (Origins really) that the missions have been used to create actualy interesting gameplay
that isnt just "chains of perma claims".

There might be a few reasons for this..

When the system was originally created by DDRJake, I am not sure anyone knew what to do with it. and now almost 5 years later, both developers and modders are far more advanced with it.

Also when we recruited people for Paradox Tinto, we actively looked for people with lots of modding experience.

 

[Koopatin]

to give a contra point to the mission "hate" here. while i donot like all aspects and dislike the feeling to lose a lot if i ignore the mission trees, without them i would have had a lot less games those last years.

 

[Voxtant]

Here's my hottake
Yall would hate this game if it was more accessible, with better explained mechanics and everything.

EU4 is by its nature a puzzle game. The fun of it is figuring out how things work, and how to combine them to make a cool playthrough.
Once you've solved the puzzle, the look from above at all the individual systems isn't so pretty anymore.

As backward as it seems, EU4 being obscure works heavily to its benefit.

Is this man a genius? Have we all been addicted to this game by the initial lack of sense of the mechanics, so the game seems unpredictable for us (slot machine effect) at the beggining? Have we then got hooked by how we could make this mechanics better, starting this way our love/hate relation with this game? Is this a projection of love relationships? I should sleep more.

 

[Kyoumen]

Is this man a genius? Have we all been addicted to this game by the initial lack of sense of the mechanics, so the game seems unpredictable for us (slot machine effect) at the beggining? Have we then got hooked by how we could make this mechanics better, starting this way our love/hate relation with this game? Is this a projection of love relationships? I should sleep more.

If that were the case, Victoria 1 would have been Paradox's most popular game ever.

 

[DominusNovus]

Oh, wait, sorry, I thought this was the thread for what Paradox FANS could stand to learn from recent releases.

Y’know, the etymology of fan is just a shortened version of “fanatic.” Just pointing that out, since there seems to be an interest in being precise with our wording.

And here’s the thing to remember about fans: a fanbase may, or may not, be an established customer base. They are also an established critic base.

 

[brifbates]

It's simply not reasonable or feasible to port over a decade plus of work on systems and flavour in an old game to a new game built on an entirely new framework. It won't happen. It can't happen. Stop expecting it. EUIV was bare bones at release too.

Except for the part where it really wasn't. Yes, there were a few, mostly unlamented, deletions from EU 3 + expansions but the bulk of the content (especially the major systems) was there. It wasn't a Civ V-esque remove religion and a few other significant systems to sell back later as DLC episode at all.

 

[holyvigil]

It's simply not reasonable or feasible to port over a decade plus of work on systems and flavour in an old game to a new game built on an entirely new framework. It won't happen. It can't happen. Stop expecting it. EUIV was bare bones at release too.

And that's actually a good thing, because a) freed of that cruft, new things can be tried, and b) the game would be an impossible labyrinthine mess if it tried to include everything the previous game had (also take longer to release than Duke Nukem Forever).

Oh, wait, sorry, I thought this was the thread for what Paradox FANS could stand to learn from recent releases.

The developer for EU4 says that's what he did for EU3 to EU4 and that's what his design philosophy would be for a theorectical EU5. And your response is "it's impossible!" Weird response but ok.

 

[Kyoumen]

Except for the part where it really wasn't. Yes, there were a few, mostly unlamented, deletions from EU 3 + expansions but the bulk of the content (especially the major systems) was there. It wasn't a Civ V-esque remove religion and a few other significant systems to sell back later as DLC episode at all.

That was decidedly not the opinion of the collective id of the forums at the point EUIV was released.

 

[Kyoumen]

The developer for EU4 says that's what he did for EU3 to EU4 and that's what his design philosophy would be for a theorectical EU5. And your response is "it's impossible!" Weird response but ok.

I agree that's what he did with Imperator and I believe him when he says it's his philosophy.

I don't agree that's what actually happened in EUIV's case, because it did indeed cut features from EUIII (like sliders, to name a perennial forum favourite). It also added new ones. It was a better game for doing so, and I never went back to EUIII again. It may be we have a difference of opinion over what is a cut feature, that one or both of us are misremembering some things that happened a decade ago, what have you. These things happen.

It's all beside the point, though, since I was criticising the expectation of including a decade's worth of development and adding to the game ina new iteration of the game, which wasn't really the case with the old expansions system like it is with the current dlc system. EUIV by any measure has had a LOT more added to it than EUIII did, much like CK2 had an enormous amount added to it when compared to previous Paradox games.

 

[imperial.]

Some other ideas, general & visual Improvements to Ship Warfare, Piracy & Trading, Port Royale comes to mind, although i never played it looks visually really nice in the Carribbean & seems somewhat ship focused.

Another suggestion would be Espionage, Ferternaties, Orders & Estates internal conflicts within our own kingdom & others. Starting Revolutions in other nations or our own.

I played a game called Sigma Theory Where it's based around a countries intelligence agency infiltrating into other countries & having to escape back, i liked how it plays & ideas such as Black mailing, kidnappings, Intel on military coordinates, Countries Security, Intel on technology etc.

 

[grommile]

I played a game called Sigma Theory Where it's based around a countries intelligence agency infiltrating into other countries & having to escape back, i liked how it plays & ideas such as Black mailing, kidnappings, Intel on military coordinates, Countries Security, Intel on technology etc.

Sigma Theory is a strategy game built around running an covert operations agency. That's the whole point of the game. Nobody's going to touch the game unless that's what they're interested in. The developers don't have to concern themselves with how the presence of covert sabotage mechanics interact with the rest of the gameplay, because the covert sabotage mechanics are the gameplay.

There is one Clausewitz/Jomini engine gameline where Paradox have managed to make covert sabotage fun for people who aren't covert sabotage fans: Crusader Kings, which is a game about being a mediaeval martial aristocrat, rather than a game about being a (nation-)state.

 

[Anna_Gein]

I hope the devs would move away from the past few years of content which I dislike (especially the focus trees / mission trees in all their versions) and instead reconnect with the imo more fun and more intuitive philosophy when the past generation of game were released: CK2, EUIV and HoI4.

I feel like recently the studio met a dead end. I mean no disrespect for the devs. Sincerely.

I hope EU will move away from tweaks, balancing change, anti-gamey abuse changes and confusing mechanics to introduce again new fun, intuitive and freedom inducing systems.

I would love if the game removes some of the hard limits we have currently: buildings slots, general /admiral slots, limited diplomatic slots, etc

And please bring back national monuments as they were in EU IV early versions. It was so satisfying.

For EU V I would like the game to keep what I feel is the best part of EU : the feeling of expectation and development, the world getting bigger and bigger.

I would welcome more era details. Although I understand there will always be a tension between temporal flavor and a game that span close to 4 centuries.

I appreciate the efforts from the studio to offer more historical accurate contents. Even if there is still a lot to be done in this area. As I understand the devs still rely heavily on wikipedia. Which is a shame. I think it would do a great service to the devs if the studio brought some general history manuals. You may ask directly to university teachers searchers. I am sure they would gladly answer.

Something I would like is to put more emphasis on the people. On every spectrum of the society. Be it the upper top with actual ruler characters just like CK and I:R (if we can mary lol) and lower alike with more details on general pops. On the other end I feel like the random and few characters introduced in Vic 3 did not work at all. They are too few of them. With little context over who they are, what they want and why as an undefined actor, I, the player, should care about them.

I feel like over its development, EU IV had many interesting concepts introduced like estates but ultimately all suffered from their theorical nature. Few of them felt like genuinely existing systems unlike the court system in CK2.

 

[grommile]

intuitive

There are no intuitive human-created systems. All human-created systems have to be learned.

I would love if the game removes some of the hard limits we have currently: buildings slots, general /admiral slots, limited diplomatic slots, etc

The only hard limit on generals/admirals is that each one over the soft limit costs you monthly mana maintenance.

And please bring back national monuments as they were in EU IV early versions. It was so satisfying.

There were no monuments in early versions of EU4.

Do you mean the generic one-per-nation buildings (War College, Admiralty, Embassy, etc)?

 

[Anna_Gein]

There are no intuitive human-created systems. All human-created systems have to be learned.

The only hard limit on generals/admirals is that each one over the soft limit costs you monthly mana maintenance.

There were no monuments in early versions of EU4.

Do you mean the generic one-per-nation buildings (War College, Admiralty, Embassy, etc)?

Your life must I be a terrible burden if you never ever encoutered anything intuitive.

Limits on generals and admirals are annoying period.

Yes the generic monuments. They were so cool. In mid game they were nice rewarding milestones.