Front note:
This is a thread about me (and you guys) trying to formulate a "function-able" plan for China and the celestial empire in EU5, based on three-core-principle:
To make this thread readable, I'm about to add lots of bullet points.
In case you guys get boring, the overall idea is that we gradually add building-based countries (BBC) to represent local powers that stretch admin-attention and resources throughout the "Ming-Qing era".
Above is the old plan.
New plan is:
- The idea is that, stable food production within China ties (assume no natural disaster) with the power of the commoner.
- If commoner have too little power, that means "土地兼并", you then lost all bounus you gain from commoner in food production and your empire descends into famine
- "土地兼并", term refers to situation like "Enclosure" but mucn ancient in China, is well-regarded as direct cause of famine and economic turmoil and eventually the fall of most Chinese Dynasties.
+
However, if you just don't care or firmly dislike any idea going down my direction, you can just quit this thread by pressing the cross right-most your browser (or slide it if you're using your phone). Otherwise, we can always discuss and I think discussion is a big part of what people would be doing in the history fan community, as who we are here at the end of day.
Motivation - why bother?
(e.g. backgrounds you may skip)
Quick answer: I'm a Chinese player of EU4 and a modder for East-asian tags (yeh, not only China) since 2018, you can find my mod here. I would probably dedicate to make Ming, Japan, Qing (or manchu), Mongolia and surrounding tags fun to play in EU5, if I'm not occupied fully by a sudden jump in workloads of my day-job.
I have also contributed 2 alt-history scenarios in the EU4 mod, which generally are:
So, yeh, I'm sort of experienced in wild-thinking and figuring ways to implement them.
Case-study and context - characteristics of China in EU5 (and 4) and what I think about it.
Now, what are the features defining or "defined for" China in the game? In my opinion, China is characterised by...
1) Sizes, in terms of how big it is on the map, and the quantify of locations included.
Yeh, ok, these sound tricky. But, dramati turns may emerge here: that is conditioned to what EU4 was about — A "political-map-painter" simulation — with all mechanics focusing mostly on rewarding "the bigger chunck" on the political map. Balancing only means that you have to paint slower, not "stop-painting". So, of cource we gonna end-up in a dilemma if the map is already fine-painted.
But, based on what I see so far about EU5, I dare say we can think-otherwise.
As you might notice, I highlighted one sub-sentence among the list above. which is:
Should they?
Hmmmm......
But, surely, none would expect to see building-based or army-based countires right?
Well...
Wait, I have an idea!
New Methodology - How can we plausiblely design China?
Plan is forever a journey. From comments given below by our fellow community users. I do realize there is a big flaw in my argument:
In this plan, we can do everything with our good-old Estate system. BBCs are for flavor which we can discuss whether we like to see them later in the development.
Change to mandate:
- Plz add more modifier for the mandate related to devastation of the locations and properity in locations;
- Plz reduce the cash-for-mandate tributary, "the mandate" is more about legitimacy granted by your subjects, not tributaries.
- You can however, increase the mandate loss given by the Emperor tag losts their battle and wars.
- Mandate should modify the strength of estates, showing the Emperor lossing credibility and control over politics after the guy's authority be questioned.
Change to existing estates:
Crown - (relatively) powerful crown emphasizing the strength of the Emperor.
(Chaoting, Imperial Court, 朝廷)
(Changes to other estates basically follow the idea of craft a lively estate-dominated East-asian society based on the idea of Occupation and Registration system, similar systems has also been implemented or studied across Korea, Vietnam and. at least, Edo era Japan)
Privileges (auto-granted to all Chinese tags after they reach certain sizes, if they haven't been granted before, flag controlled):
- Privileges:
(auto-granted to all Chinese tags after they reach certain sizes, if they haven't been granted before, flag controlled)
Privileges:
(auto-granted to all Chinese tags after they reach certain sizes, if they haven't been granted before, flag controlled)
Scholar-officials (Intellectuals)
- Desc: Throughout the history of China and surrounding nations, due to early institutionalized of their governing system, intellectuals rose to power and eventually become the common identity for landowners. Replacing noble clans following a blood-bonded rule of successions, while assimilating clergies supported by mystic concepts more than the art of administration.
- Should appear to those who have sufficient Han culture or Chinese locations in their realm, beyond just celestial empire.
- Privileges:
(auto-granted to all Chinese tags after they reach certain sizes, if they haven't been granted before, flag controlled)
(As SO is a new estate)
Old Methodology - How can we design China with new tools? (the complicated version)
As I laid-out from very begining, the idea is basically to use BBC (turn your safe-reasearch on plz) to balance big-chunck-tag playthroughs like what we would see for the celestial empires. However, just saying that would make some senses but not much.
Overall, all BBC, I think, would be only "not-integratable" un-landed subjects of the Emperor of China.
When they are subjects of the "Celestial Empire", they get a score panel showing how influential each of them is to the policy making of the Emperor. The score is defined by multiple modifiers, mechanics and number of locations dominated inside the overlord tag (means you built a "CN BBC building" in it, such as banks for the bank-tags). According this "Influencial score", Chinese BBCs unlock the ability to control their overlord tag, both diplomatically, tax-wise and spending-wise.
As the Emperor of China, or any of the BBCs, you review your influences on a "Admin-affairs" interface, which is the back-side of the Mandate of Heaven interface.
Let me give you an example:
And, your have only 1-per-type-estate for a tag. And we can make lots of "Dang" tags per Ming play through.
This Q would be tricky and subjected to our understanding of history. However, regardless what you learnt and your stereotype of China, I think at least we can have the following potential Chinese BBC:
So far, the three are types of BBC I can think of. There are other options though, such as:
As stated in functions of the three BBCs above, I think a good summaritive points would be:
This is a thread about me (and you guys) trying to formulate a "function-able" plan for China and the celestial empire in EU5, based on three-core-principle:
- Most important: it should be fun, both to play and to have on the map;
- Plausible (i.e. "function-able"), based on disclosed design of the game (by 2025.05.20);
- Balanced, in terms of complexity, difficulty (relatively) and impact of the Empire on playthrough of other tags.
To make this thread readable, I'm about to add lots of bullet points.
Above is the old plan.
New plan is:
- The idea is that, stable food production within China ties (assume no natural disaster) with the power of the commoner.
- If commoner have too little power, that means "土地兼并", you then lost all bounus you gain from commoner in food production and your empire descends into famine
- "土地兼并", term refers to situation like "Enclosure" but mucn ancient in China, is well-regarded as direct cause of famine and economic turmoil and eventually the fall of most Chinese Dynasties.
+
However, if you just don't care or firmly dislike any idea going down my direction, you can just quit this thread by pressing the cross right-most your browser (or slide it if you're using your phone). Otherwise, we can always discuss and I think discussion is a big part of what people would be doing in the history fan community, as who we are here at the end of day.
Motivation - why bother?
(e.g. backgrounds you may skip)
Quick answer: I'm a Chinese player of EU4 and a modder for East-asian tags (yeh, not only China) since 2018, you can find my mod here. I would probably dedicate to make Ming, Japan, Qing (or manchu), Mongolia and surrounding tags fun to play in EU5, if I'm not occupied fully by a sudden jump in workloads of my day-job.
I have also contributed 2 alt-history scenarios in the EU4 mod, which generally are:
1) A shattered Ming at the 1444 start-date under a semi-logical alt-history context involving climate change and around 50~100k text the setting text;
2) A more magical "what-if" about north-America was colonized by Viking with rune power, later Song with black powder, Mongols being Mongols, Nyarlathotep cults (central American attempt to summon gods to tackle Mongol invaders went wild), LOTR Eldars and Isekai mages.
So, yeh, I'm sort of experienced in wild-thinking and figuring ways to implement them.
Case-study and context - characteristics of China in EU5 (and 4) and what I think about it.
Now, what are the features defining or "defined for" China in the game? In my opinion, China is characterised by...
1) Sizes, in terms of how big it is on the map, and the quantify of locations included.
- Major feature, the elephant in the room, I don't think I need to justify why;
- Historically accurate;
- From just the face value of a big China, some players love that, while some others hate it, I'd also like to skip why;
2) from the sizes, the Population (or development in EU4).- New in EU, old for Vic and HOI;
- Economic nightmare for dev to handle;
- Makes the game too easy, if we do nothing about it;
- Vast majority of them have same culture.
- Even you can trick the culture problem by "culture-group-ing" them, you got "the religion singularity" among them. (as in EU5)
3) mostly undivided during the period described in game- "mostly" stands for 1371 ~ 1644 (Ming), and then 1682 ~ end-game (Qing);
- means you have limited opponents and interactions inside the region, if you assume tags should mostly be landed.
- again, some players love that, while some others hate this;
4) Centralised government;- centralised, Absolutism, Dictator monarchy, Bureaucracy... you name it;
- what it means is that no easy feudal vassal tags can be partitioned out like Europe or others;
- and the challenge for expansion mostly come from admin-cost most of the time;
- big enemy bosses do emerge in Steppe direction, but not all the time;
- depending on AI cleverness to form opponents for player is not gonna work;
- 1337 start-date rule out major Ming opponents, historical-wise;
- you go the way of buff-northern-Yuan, you go the not-historical way;
- I tried to partition out the princes of Ming back in my EU4 mod, created some dynamic but not all;
4) based on 1) ~ 3) the scaling of de-buff modifiers and buff modifiers design around them;- back in EU4;
- the Penalties needed to be high, to a point lifting it would be a BIG BIG buff for you;
- the reward is difficult to design, since a small bonus would be an overkill;
- but, if you make players get only little rewards (seemingly), why bother playing?
- at the end, the mods I saw in late EU4 just forget all about balancing China, just keep buff-ing it so we get the feeling "ahhhhhhhhh~" when play it.
- actually applicable to all late EU4 designs...don't you think...
5) with respect, combing 1) ~ 4), devs decide just don't touch this hot-pot and leave it as it is;- proven by how late CN tags got any missions in EU4;
- and even CN tags got them, the missions are much shorter and flat compared with its neighbours;
- reasonable choice if you are a dev for entire game.
Some of you might notice something, but let's walk before we run.How're these points tricky? Well, bascially speaking, if you have only 3) and 4), you got a Russia, or any colony tags appeared late in the game. That is a balance "trouble", but due to their relatively limited population (or developments in 4) and time given for it to grow. The problem would not reveal itself till mid-late game. By the time the TAG forms, the player would have enjoyed "the feeling of solving a puzzle", and ready to enjoy the fruit of their hard-working.
That's not the case for "China tags". To be historically accurate, 1) and 2) are essential to be in-place. Thus, in EU4, the player is "thrown" at a big-chunk tag. Although the devs read through history books to find some delicate events and situations that "might pose threat" to players, the problems usually could be solve in the first 30min of their gameplay. Such as the Tumu incident. If not, that's probably because the player went straight to the tag without learning general mechanics. That's when you see confusing newbie mistakes, such as composing armies with infantries only and never check hostile attrition before you station your army at a location.
As a result, late-EU4 devs decided to add more point-4) de-buffs to the game. Such as the enuch privileges and the (in-)famous flodd events. I'm not sure how people feel nowadays, but back when the DLC's first-out, these innovations were received badly and never close to what actually happened in history.
Thus, bunch of players starting to comment, protest even, the devs wouldn't know (or rather not think that much about) what they should do, so they decide to take point-5). Both parties then press the thumbs down button for each other, modders starting to emergy, but nothing actually gets done for vanilla, story-ends.
That's not the case for "China tags". To be historically accurate, 1) and 2) are essential to be in-place. Thus, in EU4, the player is "thrown" at a big-chunk tag. Although the devs read through history books to find some delicate events and situations that "might pose threat" to players, the problems usually could be solve in the first 30min of their gameplay. Such as the Tumu incident. If not, that's probably because the player went straight to the tag without learning general mechanics. That's when you see confusing newbie mistakes, such as composing armies with infantries only and never check hostile attrition before you station your army at a location.
As a result, late-EU4 devs decided to add more point-4) de-buffs to the game. Such as the enuch privileges and the (in-)famous flodd events. I'm not sure how people feel nowadays, but back when the DLC's first-out, these innovations were received badly and never close to what actually happened in history.
Thus, bunch of players starting to comment, protest even, the devs wouldn't know (or rather not think that much about) what they should do, so they decide to take point-5). Both parties then press the thumbs down button for each other, modders starting to emergy, but nothing actually gets done for vanilla, story-ends.
Yeh, ok, these sound tricky. But, dramati turns may emerge here: that is conditioned to what EU4 was about — A "political-map-painter" simulation — with all mechanics focusing mostly on rewarding "the bigger chunck" on the political map. Balancing only means that you have to paint slower, not "stop-painting". So, of cource we gonna end-up in a dilemma if the map is already fine-painted.
But, based on what I see so far about EU5, I dare say we can think-otherwise.
As you might notice, I highlighted one sub-sentence among the list above. which is:
Should they?
Hmmmm......
But, surely, none would expect to see building-based or army-based countires right?
Well...
Wait, I have an idea!
New Methodology - How can we plausiblely design China?
Plan is forever a journey. From comments given below by our fellow community users. I do realize there is a big flaw in my argument:
- Things that perfect (or tedious if you don't like it) can never be done in vanilla;
- It's focused too much on China itself, not really helpful to others.
In this plan, we can do everything with our good-old Estate system. BBCs are for flavor which we can discuss whether we like to see them later in the development.
Change to mandate:
- Plz add more modifier for the mandate related to devastation of the locations and properity in locations;
- Plz reduce the cash-for-mandate tributary, "the mandate" is more about legitimacy granted by your subjects, not tributaries.
- You can however, increase the mandate loss given by the Emperor tag losts their battle and wars.
- Mandate should modify the strength of estates, showing the Emperor lossing credibility and control over politics after the guy's authority be questioned.
Change to existing estates:
Crown - (relatively) powerful crown emphasizing the strength of the Emperor.
(Chaoting, Imperial Court, 朝廷)
(Changes to other estates basically follow the idea of craft a lively estate-dominated East-asian society based on the idea of Occupation and Registration system, similar systems has also been implemented or studied across Korea, Vietnam and. at least, Edo era Japan)
Privileges (auto-granted to all Chinese tags after they reach certain sizes, if they haven't been granted before, flag controlled):
- Eunuchs:
- Desc: Originally and still mostly employed by the monarch's inner court as chamberlain, these castrated-semi-slaves are often used as political messengers, imperial commissar and enforcer that channels the emperor's personal will to his subjects. Demonstrating precisely what it means by the emperor's "divine interference" in management.
- Not an Estate, comment if you think not.
- Unlock the building of "Imperial Harem" at your capital, a powerful building that employ slaves, consume wines, porcelain, jewelry and silk and etc. to ensure the quality and continuity of your dynasty's succession (translate: bonus for child and fertility);
- Unlock the building of "Royal Manor" around country, a building employs commoners, produce some food and silk, but all profits go directly to the crown.
- Can also be applied by Ottomans and Persia, given certain tech advance reached;
- In addition to the buildings, Eunuchs privilege increase the upper limit of your tax slider over clergy, nobles and the "Scholar-official" estate, with a satisfaction penalties to them, all scaled by crown power;
- Reduces monthly mandate, scaled by crown power (more crown power, less mandate, if you have eunuchs).
- Cannot be revoked unless certain tech-level is reached, or if you are not a Han culture-group empire and you choose "Enforce my own kin" and get the "Kin in the court" privilege.
- Desc: Originally and still mostly employed by the monarch's inner court as chamberlain, these castrated-semi-slaves are often used as political messengers, imperial commissar and enforcer that channels the emperor's personal will to his subjects. Demonstrating precisely what it means by the emperor's "divine interference" in management.
- Kin in the court:
- Desc: The difference between our royalty and our subjects are not only by our mandate, but also by our race. We the noble [culture] (e.g. Mongol, Manchu) race must retain our divinity and power over Han scholar-officials. Therefore, we'll not rely only on them for our ruling.
- Massively reduce the power of scholar-officials and noble, some reduces to commoner power;
- Bonus for tax maxima you can have over all other estates, with reduced satisfaction over scholar-officials and commoner.
- Unlock the building of "[Culture name] Stations" (e.g. 满城) over Han Chinese locations, reduce unrest (or reduce the threshold for pop joining rebels(?)) and increase time needed for siege.
- Cannot be revoked unless certain tech-level is reached.
- Divine dynasty:
- Desc: Your ruling is neither granted by a deity or confirmed by contracts, but a divine right given directly to your dynasty. Your absolute power would rule through the empire, unless a fine challenger emerged in the downstream of our history.
- A monthly mandate bonus (or penalty) scaled by crown power.
- Stability bonus scaled by crown power.
- A fix satisfaction bonus to all estates.
- Faster control growth over all your locations.
- Penalty religion conversion, as a "less cared" affair.
- Cannot be revoked as long as you are Celestial Empire.
- Theoretically, can be granted to other tags if allow.
- Privileges:
(auto-granted to all Chinese tags after they reach certain sizes, if they haven't been granted before, flag controlled)
- Self-sufficient economy:
- Desc: For millenniums, those who couldn't careless about peasants and rual China all ended up devoured by them.
- Increase food production based on commoner power.
- A fix increase commoner power and strength.
- A fix increase in maxima tax you can collect from them.
- A fix increase in chances for your commoners joining rebel.
- Reduce satisfaction of Nobles and Scholar-officials, scaling by commoner power.
- Cannot be revoked if you are celestial empire, theoretically, related problem only solved by massive economic development and urbanisation in 2000s.
- Peasant Hu (农户):
- Desc: TBD.
- Increase greatly your cost to colonize, as your people wouldn't normally be allowed to migrate.
- But, increase the colony growth rate slightly, as the Empire have right to move you anywhere you know.
- Increase food production based on commoner strength, reduce the money created by any trade (not share, but everything).
- Peasants generally would be "self-sufficient", and their financial health wouldn't allow them purchase almost any thing outside foods and tools (+some supply) needed for farming.
- Cannot be revoked in game.
- Craftsman Hu (匠户, 匠籍):
- Desc: TBD.
- Reduce commoner power.
- Increase the production of a series type of goods ("Bonused goods")
- Meanwhile, it reduces the states' share of trade income, at the mean time heavily penalty literacy rate growth across all commoners.
- "Bonused goods" may include (I haven't got a list of goods in game): 1. Weapons, 2. Porcelain, 3. Silk, 4. Cloth, 5. Gunpowder (?), 6... (plz comment)
- Can be revoked later in game.
- Soldier Hu (军户) (Unique to Han culture Empire):
- Desc: TBD.
- Increase the tax you can collect from commoners.
- Grant you ability to build "Imperial Station" in locations not share your culture, cost money to maintain, a building employs soldiers and weapons, provide free regular infantry and reduce chances local pop join a rebel, while also provide a small culture conversion bounus.
- "Imperial Station" also slightly increases the power of the commoner, but remember you need to pay monthly to maintain them.
- Reduce the cost for regular army, reduce total levies you can gather.
Privileges:
(auto-granted to all Chinese tags after they reach certain sizes, if they haven't been granted before, flag controlled)
- Fanwang system:
- Desc: TBD.
- Allows you to create "Fanwang" BBC (see below, old methodology) at one of your location.
- Increase power of the estate but reduce their strength.
- The Weisuo nobles:
- Desc: TBD.
- Reduce combat efficiency of your regular, in exchange, you gain bonus over your levies.
- Increase power of nobles.
- Penalty on how much tax you can collect from them.
- Can be revoked later in game with tech reaching a certain level.
- Land grabbing (土地买卖):
- Desc: TBD.
- A negative privilege exists for all estates except the Commoners.
- Slightly debuff food production based on estate strength.
- Reduce commoner power based on estate strength.
- Revoke would greatly reduce estate satisfaction and increase commoner power and strength.
Scholar-officials (Intellectuals)
- Desc: Throughout the history of China and surrounding nations, due to early institutionalized of their governing system, intellectuals rose to power and eventually become the common identity for landowners. Replacing noble clans following a blood-bonded rule of successions, while assimilating clergies supported by mystic concepts more than the art of administration.
- Should appear to those who have sufficient Han culture or Chinese locations in their realm, beyond just celestial empire.
- Privileges:
(auto-granted to all Chinese tags after they reach certain sizes, if they haven't been granted before, flag controlled)
- Ascension through examination:
- Desc: One's understanding in art of governance and knowledge in our society's moral standard is the prove for capability and the pass to power.
- Unlock "Imperial Examination" advance: an advance that increases the power of your Scholar-officials unlocks the building of "Shuyuan academy" (书院).
- "Shuyuan academy": building that employs clergy (or scholars? who do university employs in the game) and paper (+ink(?)) to produce books and literacy for a location. Can be upgraded.
- Reduces noble and commoners strength, scaled by Scholar-official power.
- Shi Hu (士户)(Autogrant for all Han tags. Not granted for Yuan, but grantable if commoner and noble power is low):
- Desc: All occupations are inferior to the superior intellectuals. (万般皆下品，唯有读书高)
- Reduce the power of all other estates despite the crown, scaled by Scholar-official strength.
- However, reduce also the amount of tax crown can collect from them, scaled by Scholar-official strength.
- Land grabbing (土地买卖):
- Desc: TBD.
- A negative privilege exists for all estates except the Commoners.
- Slightly debuff food production based on estate strength.
- Reduce commoner power based on estate strength.
- Revoke would greatly reduce estate satisfaction and increase commoner power and strength.
(As SO is a new estate)
- Clan certification (士籍):
- Desc: Nobles channels their power through blood and marriage, why can't we? As we all know, the ability to learn is also an ability inheritable for our children.
- Increase satisfaction of both Nobles and Scholar-official.
- Increase Scholar-official strength
- Increase monthly stability.
- Decrease slightly monthly mandate (legitimacy if you're not the Emperor).
- Tuanlian policy:
- Desc: Landowners who're certified scholar-officials, including those passed at least one level of imperial exam, should be granted the responsibility and power to defend our realm. (养士多年，用在一时)
- Increase levy fighting efficiency.
- Increase Scholar-official strength.
- Unified taxation (Source: A, B):
- Desc: TBD.
- Increase tax collectable for all estate.
- Increase monthly mandate.
- Reduce food production efficiency.
- Reduce satisfaction for Nobles and Scholar-official.
- Silver standard taxation:
- Desc: Taxing our subjects of different occupations by their product is an ancient strategy, and has increasingly be inefficient due to the rapid change in price and productivity throughout our prospering empire. Meanwhile, the stockpiling of scholar-official clans across country have also led to depreciation of our currency in the market. Therefore, we should ask them to hand-in only silver for taxation. As most silver are hold by the land-owning scholar-officials, we essentially encouraged they to trade them out with our other subjects, while strengthening our treasury with silver reserves.
- Increase total trade profit, scaled by Scholar-official power.
- Increase trade income share by the crown, scaled by Scholar-official power.
- Reduce food production slightly.
- Panel transportation:
- Desc: The killing of Scholar-official is unthinkable even to an enemy of the crown. In contrast, giving them second chances to serve their Emperor in the borderland is more than just mercy. Afterall, cultivate civilization and morality over barbaric lands is a mission most noble to all students of Confucius.
- Increase colonial growth rate.
- Reduce cost to colonize.
- Allow the recruitment of explorer.
- Essays on strategic ability:
- Desc: Previously, the imperial examination assess only the candidates' knowledge in Confucius philosophy, and never go far from examine their ability to understand how to examine our society from a morality perspective. As a result, pass generation of officials are loyal and knowledgeable scholars, but less a official with political and admin abilities. Now, by evaluating candidate's ability to draft policy plans under exam conditions, we want our future generations to be more capable in management and execution as an official of the crown.
- Increase Scholar-official strength.
- Increase control growth across locations.
- Increase trade income share by the crown.
- Essays on poetry:
- Desc: TBD
- Increase Scholar-official power.
- Increase literacy rate growth for nobles, clergy and all middle-upper class pops.
- Side imperial exams:
- Desc: TBD
- Reduce Scholar-official power and strength.
- Increase research point gains.
- Acknowledge foreign beliefs:
- Desc: TBD
- Increase tolerance to heathen.
- Increase mandate, scaled by Scholar-official power.
- Rule for avoidance and official terms:
- Desc: TBD
- Reduce Scholar-official strength.
- Increase Crown power.
- All range of production monopoly related privileges for silk, spice and porcelain.
Old Methodology - How can we design China with new tools? (the complicated version)
As I laid-out from very begining, the idea is basically to use BBC (turn your safe-reasearch on plz) to balance big-chunck-tag playthroughs like what we would see for the celestial empires. However, just saying that would make some senses but not much.
Overall, all BBC, I think, would be only "not-integratable" un-landed subjects of the Emperor of China.
When they are subjects of the "Celestial Empire", they get a score panel showing how influential each of them is to the policy making of the Emperor. The score is defined by multiple modifiers, mechanics and number of locations dominated inside the overlord tag (means you built a "CN BBC building" in it, such as banks for the bank-tags). According this "Influencial score", Chinese BBCs unlock the ability to control their overlord tag, both diplomatically, tax-wise and spending-wise.
As the Emperor of China, or any of the BBCs, you review your influences on a "Admin-affairs" interface, which is the back-side of the Mandate of Heaven interface.
Let me give you an example:
- 1) You are an BBC, let's say, a Dang tag (see later) based on Manor and Schools;
- 2) You start in Sichuan, that means you gain your first Manor and Schools in the city of Chengdu (a city in Sichuan) through, idk, an event trigger after Ming unify China.
- 3) The school is the type of "Dominator building" you have, building that means you got 1) capacity to do it, 2) money;
- 4) You gain income through Manor, a building that let you grab percentage of tax earned by Ming, while providing a static base-income;
- 5) Let's say 1 Manor let you gain 10% "base-tax" in a location, and (guys idk EU5 prices for things) 10 EU5 currency per month;
- 6) School, is a building you can only build based when you"have capacity (see later)", the number of schools earned by you give you certain amount of "influencial score";
- 7) Other BBC also have this type of buildings, so your score would be scaled, like, you have 5 schools, each gives you 2 score, and total sum score given by all other BBC score-buildings are X across Ming, your score would be (5*2*modifier)/(X+Y*modifier). Y is a static/dynamitc value assigned to the emperor, like Crown-power to estates.
- 8) You can only build Manor and Schools, in locations neighbouring your first School, that's a rule limiting your expansion;
- 9) Influencial score given by your school is scaled by development of location you build it;
- 10) You have some mechanical interactions let you make money in other ways, so you are rich somehow;
- 11) You save money, build lots of Manor and Schools across Sichuan, you gain the ability of building using Ming's money;
- 12) Your influential score on Imperial court menu grow, because you have lots of Schools.
- 13) You starting to use national money to develop locations in Sichuan by build buildings, where most of your Manors and Schools located.
- 14) By doing 12), you get more scores (see 9) and more money (see 5) to continue expanding yourself, great!
- 15) Repeat 11) ~ 14), until a point you have no place to build or have complete control over the Empire, which would be difficult considering the size of the empire.
- 16) But, even though, you still need to maintain your power if the Emperor tag expands. Because, surprice, your score is down-modified by the size of the Empire. While some othe BBCs, such as "Weisuo (info, see later)" get their power up-modified by the Empire size.
- 17) Also, as your scores are scaled by development, in EU5, that means pops and productivity in those locations better to be high, so, you wouldn't like conscriptions, wars happening in Sichuan (see 1), and etc. Hense, this is also part of your game: Gain control of the imperial army and stop them from conscripting your dear Sichuanese people (letting enemies run to your place).
- More later on how they convert between tags.
And, your have only 1-per-type-estate for a tag. And we can make lots of "Dang" tags per Ming play through.
This Q would be tricky and subjected to our understanding of history. However, regardless what you learnt and your stereotype of China, I think at least we can have the following potential Chinese BBC:
- Regional factions of scholar-officials, Dang(朋党 or 党):
- I would name them "X Dang", e.g. Sichuanese Dang (蜀党)(just an example), The Donglin Dang, Nan Dang and Bei Dang (Qing).
- A republic, but election won't be held until your ruler's death.
- With high enough influence, your Dang gets control over the Empire in all aspects;
- However, every control move you act, like delare-war or building using Emperor's money, hurts your relationship with the Emperor and other CN BBCs.
- Your relationship wither Emperor and other BBC also hurts by influencial score, the high you go, the more they hate you.
- Special buildings (all have 1 level only):
- Central schools (大书院), exists as their "Capital", impossible to be demonished except speicial reasons like events, otherwise same as Schools;
- Employ nobilities.
- Consumes similiar goods as temple like buildings or university;
- "Produce litrecy" for upper clergy, nobility and burghers.
- Domiator building.
- Manor (庄园/坞堡), as the name states, levels of land-estates owned by scholar-officials, you can only build it in locations where 1) near your "Capital" and 2) near existing Manor (essentially they are powerful Vic3 Landowners);
- Employ peasants;
- Same as farm-like buildings, but produce no food and reduce foods.
- Produce money;
- Maybe also employ nobilities.
- Schools (书院), you can build 1-per-province (EU5 province), gives you extra income and influential score scaled by development;
- Employ clergies;
- Maybe also employ nobilities.
- Consumption same as Central schools;
- "Produce litrecy" for upper clergy, nobility and burghers.
- Domiator building.
- How many you can build is limited by a capacity, which is determined by different factors (tbd), what I can think would be 1) your relationship with the Emperor tag; 2) your total development; 3) number of techs you unlock.
- Can be demonished by the Emperor and other BBCs with a money+stability cost, if your influence is not sufficiently high;
- AI emperor would only demonish yours if 1) your influence is high, or 2) your relationship with the Emperor is low.
- If you ally with other BBCs (remember influence hurts relationship), they would not demonish your building, otherwise they would when they can.
- Central schools (大书院), exists as their "Capital", impossible to be demonished except speicial reasons like events, otherwise same as Schools;
- How they functions?
- As discussed above;
- Part of you income still goes to the Emperor, but the propotionality (min 1%) determined by youself with a slider.
- Spawn at game start across most part of Eastern Chinese coastline provinces, like Anhui, Zhejiang and etc., more to come in later events, eventually cover all of China;
- Spawn events would be stopped if the province already got a Domiator building.
- You can demonish others' Domiator building only with high enough influencial score, AI does so with a likelyhood scaled by relationship.
- Additionally, your Domiator building bans other CN BBC tags from building theirs at the location.
- What's The Emperor's strategy towards them?
- If, for example, a red turban tag (or later the peasant rebellion tags or colonizers or others) gain ownership over a location with your building, what happens?
- Manors, you get an event, asking whether you willing to ransom it back from the new owner, answer yes, you still have it and pay money, answer no you lost it.
- Schools,
- you get an event, asking whether you willing to ransom it back from the new owner, answer yes, you still have it and pay money, answer no you lost it.
- but no influential scores from it anymore, until the red turban tag maybe become the emperor, or the emperor tag cede the location.
- This one would be contreversal, but you can name one that works in a similar way.
- The "nobilities" here and above could be change to "Clergy" based on your understanding.
2. Weisuo/Clique (卫所/军镇):
- X Weisuo or X Clique, based on EU5-province they emerged from;
- A republic, but election won't be held until your ruler's death.
- Emerge by events after Ming or any red turbans unify most of China in the "Weisuo" name, Yuan have it from the begining with the name "Clique";
- Located 1-per-Chinese-province, including capital-province;
- Capital scripted or based on spawn events.
- Special buildings(all have 1 level only):
- Clique barracks, a buiding that generate fix income and influencial score scaled by amount of soldiers in an location, won't be build-able at locations that have none.
- employ nobilities;
- Your Dominator building, provide you influencial score;
- Building Clique barracks hurts your relationship with the Emperor.
- Location with Clique barracks cannot build regular related buildings.
- How many you can build is limited by a capacity, which is determined by different factors (tbd), what I can think would be 1) your relationship with the Emperor tag; 2) your total development; 3) number of techs you unlock.
- Can be demonished by the Emperor and other BBCs with a money+stability cost, if your influence is not sufficiently high;
- AI emperor would only demonish yours if 1) your influence is high, or 2) your relationship with the Emperor is low.
- If you ally with other BBCs (remember influence hurts relationship), they would not demonish your building, otherwise they would when they can.
- Clique fort, a building that employ soldiers (peasants) to increase defensiveness (is that in EU5?) and provide free regular army for your overlord, but at the expense of the local total tax-base and foods.
- Employ peasants;
- Needs weapons, horses and foods;
- Actually very good if you are the overlord. As you get free soldiers.
- Clique barracks, a buiding that generate fix income and influencial score scaled by amount of soldiers in an location, won't be build-able at locations that have none.
- Funtion:
- Basically, similar to Dang, but with additional that your influential score isn't effcted by developmen;
- You can demonish others' Domiator building only with high enough influencial score, AI does so with a likelyhood scaled by relationship.
- And what you can do is you build a Weisuo fort first, then Weisuo station over it.
- Your influential score is modified by size of the Empire (small modifier), and the size of soldier pops under your "domination" (big impact).
- Your goal essentially is increase the army-size and the territory of the Empire.
- Additionally, your Domiator building bans other CN BBC tags from building theirs at the location.
3. Fanwang (Principalities) (藩王):
- Name scripted by events or start-up siuations;
- A monarchy.
- Yuan starts with some, Ming and others got pop-up events for those after unify China;
- Ming would have some historical events or decisions to limit your influencial score.
- Special buildings:
- Wangfu (王府), a upgradable building unique to you, one per tag, not builable, not demonishable.
- Gain a high % of all base-tax across the EU5-province of the location it locates, let's say 10%;
- Employs nobilities;
- Consume range of goods that a noble could eat. Like wines.
- When upgrate, the share % increases, let's say, from 10 to 15%;
- Domiator building, gives you fix influencial score scaled by building level and your monarch's relationship with the Emperor tag.
- Cost hell lots of money to upgrade.
- Generate mandate for the Emperor relative to relationship towards the Emperor.
- Provides tons of influencial score each level, because you're Emperor's relative.
- Xingzai (Palace) (行在), un-upgradable expensive building, you can build it in any locations owned by the Emperor, it grabs a fix-share of the location's tax-base to you, and the actual money it gives would be modified by development of the location;
- Employ nobilities;
- Consume range of goods that a noble could eat. Like wines.
- Produce negative satisfaction to all pop types in the location except nobilities.
- Also generates power to Nobility estates;
- Can be demonished by the Emperor with a money+stability cost, if your influence is not sufficiently high;
- AI emperor would only demonish yours if 1) your influence is high, or 2) your relationship with the Emperor is low or 3) average satisfcation of the location is too low.
- Wangfu (王府), a upgradable building unique to you, one per tag, not builable, not demonishable.
- Functions:
- Your influencial score isn't up-scaled by anything but your relationship with the Emperor;
- However, Emperor's legitimacy, mandate and other factor may reduce your influencial score,
- You essentially lives with your Dynasty, your buildings get demonlished if the ownership of the location flip to another tag.
- Emperor tag cannot give up the location where your Wangfu locates to anyone, unless demanded by the other party in war;
- Yeh, in multi-player, you can just ask your firends to demand it in a "friendly war".
- You can demonish others' Domiator building only if you have Xingzai there, AI does so with a likelyhood scaled by relationship.
- Additionally, your Domiator building bans other CN BBC tags from building theirs at the location.
4. Liukou (Mobile-rebels) (流寇):
- Army based rebel tags spawn every time when you got famine or bunch of pop unsatisfied. Which may led by pop size or Too many Manors.
- To be finished later today or tommorow.
So far, the three are types of BBC I can think of. There are other options though, such as:
- Shangbang, i.e. Chinese merchant guilds, the (in-)famous Jin shang (晋商) was a power allied with the Manchu dynasty to overthrow Ming. The others, like Zhe shang (浙商), Chao shang (潮商), Min shang (闽商) and Hui shang (徽商) all had their powerplay throughout the era, financing shoclar-officials and others;
- Cults and Huidang, two big players hidden in history since Song dynasty China. Much more complex and subtle than most rebels.
As stated in functions of the three BBCs above, I think a good summaritive points would be:
- Try to limit the power of the "Dang", but that would cost you Litrecy;
- Unlimited Dang would steal you lots of tax;
- Clique would be good addition to your regular army, but when they grow to big you got to be careful.
- Your main enemy would be ever-spawning Liukou and normal rebels, not the outer tags.
- Fanwang would be good source for mandates.
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