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M

Mowers

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V1,06 looks amazing and we havnt even begun to examine the change in game play crashes.

What do people think of the following changes?

Spanish bankruptcy event? Is it enough?
French Wars of religion event? Is it enough?
Are manufactories an exploit any longer?

Is a 20% inflation rule still a good idea?

What effect will the maintainance rules have on play?
Will war change? What will be the new ways?

Soooo much to think about :)
 
I think it needs to be tried in mp before we can have a good picture of it, but I would imagine wars would be different and more rare...
 
There is not much change for the manufacturies. They are suppose to be slightly more expensive later on, but I'm pretty sure they will still be by far the best investment. But as there are some things slowing down economies (maintenance, expensive forts/govenors and lower trade income in the beginning) it might work out pretty well. But I suspect it will still be possible to drown MP games in money.
 
Yep, I think that there will still be money problems later in the game despite the changes.

I think a simple house rule of some sort to compensate could be a good idea.
 
I don't think the 20% inflation rule will be necessary. Really I would like to see MGC5 without it. I doubt with this patch even without the inflation will MGC5 face the same problems of MGC3.
 
You could be right. I am trying to work out the effects but its difficult to see, in someways I am better off and in others worse off.

Although maintainance is fun though eh :)
 
It doesn't have 20% or nothing though - a 5, 10, or 15% inflation penalty might be better.

Of course now, the free subjects - serfdom slider is the now almost obligatory whoops, it's not working as it should slider, with the no effect on stability costs (once again too - remember an earlier patch where productiion costs were unaffect at the serfdom end - no cost, but still the benefit for free subjects).
 
I think a rule forbidding use of anything less than middle serfdom should be considered while the serfdom bug is left unaddressed. The problem in letting players all go full free subjects are : unrealistically heightened income (isn't this what mandatory inflation is supposed to take care of) without a drawback (usually higher stab cost), heightened morale (without the stab cost drawback) which will on average allow greater/faster victories against AI countries. Naturally events both scripted & random would have to edit out any liberating effects & enslaving effects.
 
Originally posted by BiB
I wouldn't go with a inflation rule either but a manufactory rule coudl come in handy, they weren't chabnged too much and they're the real culprit.

This is my current line of thinking.

Nobody knows how much extra costs are now in the game proportionally wise. Although it could be worked out by someone with enough time. I reckon we are looking at between 10-25% extra costs. Which if true then the inflation rule is no longer needed.

However, as BiB says, nothing much has changed with regards to the manufactories.
 
Manufacturies are actually about my largest problem with 1.06 right now, way way too many of them are given out through events. Its kinda sickening to see Kongo with fine arts in every one of their provinces, the Huron being an industrialized nation state with a beautiful new weapons manufactury and so on. Really, i'd prefer if they weren't given out at all through events, this would make them a bit more expensive to players, especially considering the additional inflation players will probably be racking up keeping a decent sized (and now thankfully expesnive) army + the 100 for each additional one built.
 
1.06 limits expansion more than previous patches due to the new WE system. In case of war to large empires will face huge revolts,while the new maintenance cost makes the upkeep of the necessary troops for fighting rebels or wage the war very expensive. I like it :D
 
Well in a SP game the cost of manufacturies has sky rocketed, I think my 6th one as France cost like 3K. But I agree the introduction of ramdom manufacturies to all players has caused there to be a ton of them all over the place. Usually by 1550 half the provinces in Germany have one. I think that needs to be toned down. It makes for warmonger humans in MP snap up those provinces as fast as they appear. So I think cost is fine but the real problem is all the free ones that appear that you never have to pay for.

Juice
 
Originally posted by JKremer35
Well in a SP game the cost of manufacturies has sky rocketed, I think my 6th one as France cost like 3K. But I agree the introduction of ramdom manufacturies to all players has caused there to be a ton of them all over the place. Usually by 1550 half the provinces in Germany have one. I think that needs to be toned down. It makes for warmonger humans in MP snap up those provinces as fast as they appear. So I think cost is fine but the real problem is all the free ones that appear that you never have to pay for.

Juice

You're perfectly right, i've made some posts about this elsewhere. The random ones are just way too much, in my SP Portugal game, Kongo had 4 of em (all fine arts! :D) , one in every province... Needless to say, Kongo doesen't exist anymore.
 
Nobody has a comment about my serfdom house rule? I actually think that's fairly important for 1.06 MP.
 
Originally posted by JohnMK
Nobody has a comment about my serfdom house rule? I actually think that's fairly important for 1.06 MP.

Here I go, make it so that players that go below 5 Serfdom get their serfdom level automatically edited back up. This, of course, is your own rule.:D
 
Originally posted by Mowers
French Wars of religion event? Is it enough?
Yes, especially if the French player chooses the moderates :D


Are manufactories an exploit any longer?
Not really. Going up by 250d (on VH, haven't checked whether it is the same multiplier on normal) a pop from day one makes one hell of a difference in prices. Sure, everybody can afford a beginners package of say ten manufactories, but prices get really hairy really fast.


Is a 20% inflation rule still a good idea?
Income is down overall, but not enough to counterbalance the 20% inflation. Still, wars are much more expensive to prosecute now, both because of increased maintenance and the new WE rules (even forgetting for a moment that it takes some time to decline, it also rises at twice the rate it used to :eek: )

Still, with the serfdom slider broken, and assuming innovativeness 5, a non-christian province owned by a christian nation costs 100d in stability cost, and with the 20% increase it is 120d. That reason alone should be enough to get rid of the 20% rule.

Getting rid of it will have the advantage of removing the incredibly beneficial effect of a player getting a -15% inflation RE early in a session, that we have seen happen in the MGC4.


What effect will the maintainance rules have on play?
Only fools and the Netherlands will build anything but weapons manufactories. The +1% trade and trade taxes of a refinery is as nothing compared to the +5K to the support limit of a weapons manufactory. And even the Netherlands will likely choose to build weapons manufactories anyhow.

Additionally, the more ruthless players will march their armies back and forth over the Indian's Fine Arts Academies, hoping desperately to burn them down, thus decreasing the cost of each manufactory they build.

Now, if the price of a manufactory was base + 250*nOfThisTypeOfMnf rather than the current base + 250*nOfTotalMnfs, things would be different, and we would see people diversify in manufactory building. But it isn't, so we wont.


Will war change? What will be the new ways?
Short victorious wars will be in vogue - and, as usual, they will seldom be achieved. Rebels will run rampant. The seas will be as blood. The skies will rain flames, and the four beasts will ride.

But apart from that, artillery (post tech 30-40) will be used rather more than before. Since they are no longer ten times as expensive to maintain (thanks for killing that bug!), and since bang for the unit weight is more important than ever, I can see more countries stiffening their armies with artillery. Especially since even the offensively minded countries don't have increased artilly costs, since dp-settings no longer affect maintenance.

Not that they will replace the all cavalry armies on the plains of France, of course, but in many countries they could prove rather more useful than before from a cost/benefit analysis.

Another interesting factor is that countries can now build conscription centres wherever they are eligible to receive manpower. This means that occupying high base manpower provinces outside your core shields is even more important than usual.

That is the obvious observation. The following is the less obvious observation: France just lost big relatively in the conscription center business compared to the other nations. Not that France wont have an edge on the opposition, but it will not be as great as before. France used to have CBs on most of the European possessions it was likely to get, whereas most other nations were not so fortunate. Now that advantage has evaporated.....

....And the individual manpower bonus per CC has also gone down substantially, which on the other hand aids France. It used to be a multiplier of three and then a constant of one added. Now it is a multiplier of two, without anything added, which strengthens the relative worth of CCs in state cultured provinces.

France will still be a monster come CC time, but so will any other nation that manages to acquire a large number of state cultured provinces, and that was not usually the case.