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Dojo704

Second Lieutenant
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Feb 11, 2016
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Hey all,

We currently have a lot of reported bugs, in my view a positive sign of our active and responsive hoi4 community. However lots of them get no visible response and once they are on the second, third, fourth page, they seem to be off the map completely. Is this only my impression or reality?

I dont want to sound too negative or demanding but there are some very important ones in my eyes, like the ones showing that some existing modifiers do not work (which always has the taste of wondering if there are more of that kind), non land casualties not being counted, focus tree landgrabs not checking the actual current owners and so on...

It sure seems a little disappointing to see many bugs with a 2022 or 2023 posting-date to reappear on the front page because no one took care of them.

Thank you for reading
 
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I'm not saying this to defend the game/bugs, but -

Nowadays, using Steam Reviews for anything but the base game is at the very least very unreliable way to tell if the game is good or not.

80% of people confuse DLC content with base game patches. If even one of the patches is bad or they simply don't agree with the changes - they will go and give the DLC a negative review (along with a 12-year old level of ragequit and no actual info other than "It's terrible!!") even if it has no direct link with the bug (i.e. there is some new DLC irrelevant bug that happened to be introduced with release of this DLC).

People also like to 'Review Bomb' games/DLCs whenever they feel like the developer did something they don't agree with, and I just hate this trend. This can even spill into other games from the same developer and honestly I'd just delete those reviews as 'spam' en masse. It's a nice 'message', but I then (as a customer) have to sort through all this irrelevant spam when actually thinking about buying something.

If you look at the DLCs as a whole, almost all of them have pretty bad score, even if the DLC is good. If you read the individual reviews you'll normally get a much cleaner picture.
Not really the case here. This DLC is soo bad and the previous one the game director himself came and made a post about it. It is really really really bad. The latest patch turned this DLC into India DLC nothing more.

 
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I'm not saying this to defend the game/bugs, but -

Nowadays, using Steam Reviews for anything but the base game is at the very least very unreliable way to tell if the game is good or not.

80% of people confuse DLC content with base game patches. If even one of the patches is bad or they simply don't agree with the changes - they will go and give the DLC a negative review (along with a 12-year old level of ragequit and no actual info other than "It's terrible!!") even if it has no direct link with the bug (i.e. there is some new DLC irrelevant bug that happened to be introduced with release of this DLC).

People also like to 'Review Bomb' games/DLCs whenever they feel like the developer did something they don't agree with, and I just hate this trend. This can even spill into other games from the same developer and honestly I'd just delete those reviews as 'spam' en masse. It's a nice 'message', but I then (as a customer) have to sort through all this irrelevant spam when actually thinking about buying something.

If you look at the DLCs as a whole, almost all of them have pretty bad score, even if the DLC is good. If you read the individual reviews you'll normally get a much cleaner picture.
It's true that Steam reviews can sometimes be misleading or hijacked for unrelated protests (like the whole Chinese cores and claims situation), but that point has been made over and over. At this point, it feels less like a solid argument and more like a limp reflex, especially when the same frustration is showing up across the board... on YouTube, Reddit, the Steam community, and here.


This isn't a political protest, or some bad faith brigade. It feels more like a worn-out community trying to get their point across. In that sense, even if it's messy, it's still a valid reflection of how the community feels.
 
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This game is slowly going to abandonware
It has never been that stagnant indeed. For a game of its popularity, the development has always been surprisingly slow ever since the release in 2016 but the last ~2 years are just a snail's pace.

I was re-reading my anti-naval bias thread the other day so as to get back to active modding and maybe finally get certain things released, and was aghast at how little has changed overall over the last ~15 months. E.g. GOT has finally got submarines touched upon, but the only positive change is them getting their range reduced - meaning they still enjoy way overblown speed, detection etc., and operate under the same old bizarre mechanics.

This means the game at this point undergoes maybe one or two semi-significant changes per year at most, which quite frankly might as well imply we're stuck in current state of affairs for any given domain till another game pops up. Unfortunately, I stopped following EU4 several years ago, so I can't draw any parallels here to say whether a sequel is on the horizon yet; if it is, then this might explain some things - but definitely just some.
 
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It has never been that stagnant indeed. For a game of its popularity, the development has always been surprisingly slow ever since the release in 2016 but the last ~2 years are just a snail's pace.

I was re-reading my anti-naval bias thread the other day so as to get back to active modding and maybe finally get certain things released, and was aghast at how little has changed overall over the last ~15 months. E.g. GOT has finally got submarines touched upon, but the only positive change is them getting their range reduced - meaning they still enjoy way overblown speed, detection etc., and operate under the same old bizarre mechanics.

This means the game at this point undergoes maybe one or two semi-significant changes per year at most, which quite frankly might as well imply we're stuck in current state of affairs for any given domain till another game pops up. Unfortunately, I stopped following EU4 several years ago, so I can't draw any parallels here to say whether a sequel is on the horizon yet; if it is, then this might explain some things - but definitely just some.

And oh man poor EU players. Vic players took the biggest insult with Vic 3 release and oh God imagine the new EU release how it will be. I think paradox went from making money with good quality focus tree with reduced quality and fast money tree.

Here is something very interesting for PDX and I highlighted the most important thing

1747265200019.png


Do you not find it odd every single company that used to make good games had Tencent claws at their shoulder slowly turning to worst?
 
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@SAS

I mean this with all possible respect... but this situation feels like a complex Catch-22.

We are asked as players to report bugs to the bug forum just once. However, we all know that this is not a very effective way of getting them addressed. Then, if we complain more about bugs in the general forum, we are told it is not the right place and "threatened" by moderators.

What should we as players do to communicate to the devs that we want them to focus on bugs? This forum (again, with all due respect) seems very hostile to any criticism of the devs and how they manage the game. I am new to posting/commenting here but I have seem for many months the complaints.
 
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Since the Game come out, the Devs work on it to make it from unplayable to best playable with the Basegame-Patches (Fixes, Reworks, Refits, Upgrades) and DLCs, which get the same as the Basegame too.

Sadly there are Bugs, the Devs and we Players can´t see. That Bugs are problematic, there I agree. This Bugs belongs to the Grafic-Engine, used Hardware and similar, where we (the Devs and Gamers) have no Influence. The only thing we can do is to find an Compromise to get the Game working. And every Compromise have Weaknesses.
 
It has never been that stagnant indeed. For a game of its popularity, the development has always been surprisingly slow ever since the release in 2016 but the last ~2 years are just a snail's pace.

I was re-reading my anti-naval bias thread the other day so as to get back to active modding and maybe finally get certain things released, and was aghast at how little has changed overall over the last ~15 months. E.g. GOT has finally got submarines touched upon, but the only positive change is them getting their range reduced - meaning they still enjoy way overblown speed, detection etc., and operate under the same old bizarre mechanics.

This means the game at this point undergoes maybe one or two semi-significant changes per year at most, which quite frankly might as well imply we're stuck in current state of affairs for any given domain till another game pops up. Unfortunately, I stopped following EU4 several years ago, so I can't draw any parallels here to say whether a sequel is on the horizon yet; if it is, then this might explain some things - but definitely just some.
@Arheo Just out of interest, how many people do you have working on Hoi4 in some capacity? Like how many content designers, programmers, artists and so on? Would be nice to help gauge for some of us how far we have come in this games life cycle, aka how much costs PDX is willing to spend on continued development of this game.

I know that when Johan stepped back in for EU4 right before he founded Tinto, it had been 4 people at the end on EU4. That was around patch 1.30. Jake left around that patch. Development crawled to a near halt at that time. This team is clearly bigger, so we arent at the end. But general info on how big the team is would be nice to know:)

And sry for the ping:D
 
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@SAS

I mean this with all possible respect... but this situation feels like a complex Catch-22.

We are asked as players to report bugs to the bug forum just once. However, we all know that this is not a very effective way of getting them addressed. Then, if we complain more about bugs in the general forum, we are told it is not the right place and "threatened" by moderators.

What should we as players do to communicate to the devs that we want them to focus on bugs? This forum (again, with all due respect) seems very hostile to any criticism of the devs and how they manage the game. I am new to posting/commenting here but I have seem for many months the complaints.
There is a difference between updating a bug thread and just posting "bump". I have updated a post after a patch if the error was still there and stating the patch number and that the bug still remains.
 
There is a difference between updating a bug thread and just posting "bump". I have updated a post after a patch if the error was still there and stating the patch number and that the bug still remains.
Are you saying that as a moderator here or as a forum user? Cause I have will 100% "bump" a bugreport after a big patch (not the 1.16.x patches but the 1.xx) if you tell us here that updating a bugreport to the status of "still valid" after a patch is fine with the forums policies.
 
Are you saying that as a moderator here or as a forum user? Cause I have will 100% "bump" a bugreport after a big patch (not the 1.16.x patches but the 1.xx) if you tell us here that updating a bugreport to the status of "still valid" after a patch is fine with the forums policies.
Just posting "bump" in a bug report is not allowed. I would argue saying a bug remains after a patch like "bug remains after patch 1.0.1" is fine if the bug hasn't been acknowledged by QA or a developer. Obviously a new save upload helps too.
 
Just posting "bump" in a bug report is not allowed. I would argue saying a bug remains after a patch like "bug remains after patch 1.0.1" is fine if the bug hasn't been acknowledged by QA or a developer. Obviously a new save upload helps too.
okay but are they going to even address any of these ancient bugs? some of us want to see a concrete plan for this.
 
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Just posting "bump" in a bug report is not allowed. I would argue saying a bug remains after a patch like "bug remains after patch 1.0.1" is fine if the bug hasn't been acknowledged by QA or a developer. Obviously a new save upload helps too.
Ok, that is all i wanted to do in the first place. Sure means i cant do this every 4 weeks. That obviously falls under spaming alone. But writing: "This bug remains in 1.17" and then repeat it for 1.18.x until they acknowledge its existance, sounds fair to me. Thank you for that clarification.

okay but are they going to even address any of these ancient bugs? some of us want to see a concrete plan for this.
We can hardly force their hand. But if reminding them every big patch that very important bugs are still there doesnt help, then i would just stop paying anything anymore. Let them watch all bugreporters turn away until the next generation of them is burned out of pdx...

Also even if they comment on it that its logged. Doesnt mean they will fix it in a patch.
 
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okay but are they going to even address any of these ancient bugs? some of us want to see a concrete plan for this.
I can't speak to this, I am not a Paradox employee, sorry.
 
Just posting "bump" in a bug report is not allowed. I would argue saying a bug remains after a patch like "bug remains after patch 1.0.1" is fine if the bug hasn't been acknowledged by QA or a developer. Obviously a new save upload helps too.
Thank you for the clarifying answer here :)

okay but are they going to even address any of these ancient bugs? some of us want to see a concrete plan for this.
Not implying that it happens often enough for my taste (yes, I absolutely wish to have a lot more bug fixes) and so also no guarantee that it happens for a certain bug, but this definitely can work out.

Very recent example for me personally is a very old issue (probably in since TfV?) leading to Australia taking over Japanese occupied British-Malayian territory by the sheer power of a bugged focus. This was reported by others and me a couple of times in the past (with unfortunately several duplicate reports), but ultimatly fixed yesterday internally by Arheo, after (and suspect more than conincidence here) I refreshed the bug report with a new example last sunday:

 
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I know that... but a lot of moderators (not you in particular afaik) seem to stiffle criticism of the devs. If you post anything critical the comments are shutdown and some users banned.

The right to critique a game, its publication, and its approach to any given issue is fine. You’ll note we don’t really get in the way of threads like this that are discussing a specific point in a reasonable manner.

That right isn’t a blank cheque though; criticism on the net very quickly and easily gets personal pretty fast, and it doesn’t really matter if there’s truth in there too - if stuff gets toxic this is the one and only place we can come to interact with our community with the knowledge that we won’t be subjected to that.
 
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Thanks for all the attention to this topic guys. We are all here discussing because we love playing hoi4 and want it to be as good as it can reasonably get. The point of disappointment regarding bugfixing in its (visible) quantity and also its timeframe has been made and we certainly got attention from our community and now even the devs. Let us not derail this train.
Bugfixing was, is and will be an important topic throughout every day of Hoi4s development. And possibly there is a better way of organizing the process handling it. I personally dont know as i cant see behind the scenes into the actual everyday workflow. But i do know that when the devs come up with a better process, then we the community are more than happy to take part in that, compared to the current process that leaves us a little...hmm...unsatisfied.
 
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I’m going to do my best to answer the original question of the thread here, but with a caveat: we don’t usually talk much about the development process for a bunch of reasons. A relevant reason here is that we’re unable (this can be anything from resources to finance to individuals schedules to privileged information etc) to talk about half the things folks would need to know in order to have an informed discussion on changing approaches or the practicalities of solutions to issues or perceived issues.

So, “what happens to 2/3 of the bug reports (the ones without visible response)”?

First thing’s first, we have an internal tracking database. It’s used for bugs, tasks, suggestions etc. The bug report forum and our internal database are not automatically connected (and shouldn’t be; you’ll see why shortly).

Both the internal database and forum have issues logged stretching back to the launch of the game and (internally) beyond.

Internally, we have quite a strict system for bug reports that requires detailed repro steps, save files, version numbering, disciplines, specialisms etc. you see some of that also in the bug report forum, but you’ll also notice just by browsing that those fields (especially repro steps and save files) are often omitted.

That’s ok! Not everyone will have time to do those things, we don’t really expect every forum report to be super actionable, but on the other hand it creates orders of magnitude more verification work for someone to reproduce and log an issue if there are no steps to reproduce or a save to load and see the problem. This is because we don’t just assume that reported bugs are true. And that’s because the reality is that they’re not. As an informed guess, I’d say about half of them are misunderstandings over mechanics (this decision didn’t do what I expected/the war started a few weeks earlier than historically), opinions (this historical general isn’t represented properly/this mechanic should be made X way instead), or mod-related (a large number of issues that state no mods were active did, in fact, have mods active.

So given limited time and resources (reality is a thing), these are usually not given more than a cursory glance.

Then there’s old stuff. Acting on reported issues for older versions of the game is difficult - save files won’t load, the issue might be gone or different, and adjacent stuff has likely changed making it hard to verify. This affects our internal database too, and yep, there are a whole bunch of similarly ‘abandoned’ issues there that are difficult to justify tackling when the likelihood is that most of them aren’t even still there at all. Still, we try to keep the cupboards clean from time to time.

And that, honestly, accounts for most of the problem you’re seeing I think. Our problem is more one of visibility than ignored problems; you don’t see our internal database, and the issues resolved or handled in it don’t get reflected onto the forum - that’s twice the work for no gain. Nearly every part of connecting the forum and our internal database is redundant work with little gain; issues are duplicated, the end user receives no game-benefit, etc. We can assign QA (as we do) to leave comments on forum issues, but really every part of the process of handling an issue is relevant here, not just the reporting and verification. Design needs to step in and prioritize it or even close it as WAD, someone needs to fix it, and that is all balanced against other tasks. But here I’m not trying to defend the process - I think the visibility challenge is real, and is something I want to find a way to solve. I have some ideas, but this project turns like a battleship not a dinghy. Some of you have noticed I pop in and do some fixing in the forum, but that’s not really something everyone can do. By virtue of my role I’m able to perform all those steps: decide if it’s a bug that should be addressed, prioritize it, fix it, and communicate outwardly about it. But it isn’t scalable.
 
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@Arheo Just out of interest, how many people do you have working on Hoi4 in some capacity? Like how many content designers, programmers, artists and so on? Would be nice to help gauge for some of us how far we have come in this games life cycle, aka how much costs PDX is willing to spend on continued development of this game.

I know that when Johan stepped back in for EU4 right before he founded Tinto, it had been 4 people at the end on EU4. That was around patch 1.30. Jake left around that patch. Development crawled to a near halt at that time. This team is clearly bigger, so we arent at the end. But general info on how big the team is would be nice to know:)

And sry for the ping:D
Not a question that can be answered is the disappointing answer, if you consult the credits you'll get a basic idea but that's it.