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unmerged(66662)

Recruit
Feb 2, 2007
4
0
(Hear me out)

This is absoluty atrocious. The combat is not just TERRIBLE...it doesn't exist.

The armies bounce around faster then a ping-pong tournament in China.

Have you actually read or even heard REAL Battles in the time period??? Because obviously someone let this thing slide by without even a second thought.

There has been not been a SINGLE battle of consequence in this game. I mean, armies lose what, 13 people in a 15k, then bounce around in Foreign territory, and then fight again only to lose a full 26 people in a 15k Army (ironically, they gained all their reinforcements from losing the battle).

I mean, armies are running like stealthy Rebel Armies around my territory with POSITIVE consequences. One army had lost six battles in a row in enemy territory only to capture Rome. I mean, isn't "losing" a battle supposed to have negative consequences? Instead, all it creates is "guerilla" warfare that makes either winning or losing without ANY consequence. Armies are able to wander in enemy territory better then the Vietcong themselves! :eek:

Come on guys, have you actually READ what real battles were like Pre-Gunpowder. Armies the losing army at least lost 40% of their people to being Rundown alone in battle. Legions of men running at each other did not lose less then 10% of their forces in a so called "epic engagement" that had lasted for over 14 days.

In case you haven't figured it out, we don't demand much, but HISTORICAL ACCURACY is something we NEED. And right now, the battles are FANTASTICAL at best.

I. Make the losing army suffer 30-100% of their total forces to casualty.
---Instead of----
Armies are lucky to lose 15% of their total forces.

Gameplay Reasons: Losing has little to none consequence. If "losing" gives me the option to move past entire armies and to put new pressure via flanking, armies that have "lost" have wound up winning wars.

Historical Reasons: If two armies actually met in Combat, then thousands of men would die trying to run away, disease, and marching let alone from the actual combat.

II. Make armies wander in enemy territory alot more difficult and take a percentage of death each month their in enemy territory.
---Instead of---
Armies wandering in enemy territory with little to no consequence.

Gameplay Reasons: Armies can just march right through to whereever they need to go, without any form of real difficulty. Without providing pressure to prevent armies from scrounging around deep in the heart of the enemy, there's no real advantage to being the defender. It's annoying to see armies stamp around without any apparant penalty. No pressure for invading countries. In fact, what winds up happening is that the Offender ALWAYS has the advantage because putting pressure without taking enemy penalties means that the offender who chooses his battle and forces the enemy to react wins.

Historical Reasons: It's could be insanely embrassing when units like Elephants can march through the alps without taking a scratch vs RL elephants being killed across the mountains. Then again, I do not know for sure if what I said is true, but I most likely think it is. Even so, armies are killed in enemy territory, just look at the Germans in Russia or even Hannibal in Rome. In your game, Hannibal can roam wherever he wants in Rome without taking major consequences, but in the real world Hannibal DIED while walking through Rome. Armies delayed in enemy territory WILL perish.

These two changes could literally be done with one patch or with a bunch of modders. I do not see the inherit difficulty of commiting to these changes.

I am a big supporter of your guys, and don't delete the post because it's saucy, but you seriously need to fix this if you want to keep your fanbase alive and strong. Remember, people have spent DAYS trying to make your games MORE realistic PRO BONO. We want a REAL game that's FUN to play, right now, combat is neither.

Regards.
 
Upvote 0
I've found that the 5 day rule, coupled with the inability to replace manpower in an army while it retreats from a losing battle makes for overall more pain to the losing side.

It may just be me, but I also think it makes my cohorts gain a bit more experience than they did before.
 
Yeah the battles arent so bad with 1.1, still they could use some tweaking.

Whats really frustrating is the peace negotiations. In 3 wars with them Ive controlled all of their provinces three times, they had no armies left, yet they would only cede me about 1/3 of their provinces. (cant be over 100%)

So it takes like 4 or 5 big wars and about 100+ years to knock out carthage, each time you have to control all of their provinces.... :(
 
This ping pong is still there even with 1.1 patch. It ain't as bad though as in demo, but still it's there. I fought against Carthage and when I finally won their main army in combat (their army was 48 cohorts) and chased them around, that 5 days fight didn't seem to be taken count on next fights when their retreating and my chasing army arrives on same day to the next province.

They immediately retreated on the same day when both of our armies came to next province where they retreated after first battle which they lost. It's highly annoying to be chasing over 20k Carthagian army around Italian peninsula to only inflict some couple hundred casualties on each fight.

My main army sure would've had other things to do when whole south Italian peninsula below Rome was captured by Carthage. Instead my main army chased their main army around peninsula (btw in the end Carthage lost the war and ceded 3 island :p )
 
Piggy said:
Yeah the battles arent so bad with 1.1, still they could use some tweaking.

Whats really frustrating is the peace negotiations. In 3 wars with them Ive controlled all of their provinces three times, they had no armies left, yet they would only cede me about 1/3 of their provinces. (cant be over 100%)

So it takes like 4 or 5 big wars and about 100+ years to knock out carthage, each time you have to control all of their provinces.... :(

In my game, it was enough to have the provinces i wanted (Sardinia, Corsica Epirus, Pergamon, Malta), Carthage and 2-3 other provinces.

Btw, in the real world it took Rome 3 wars over more than a hundred years to knock out Carthage :)

As for Pingpong, I havent had any noticable problem with it (playing 1.1).
 
If you want to make battles more decisive and cut back on ping ponging significantly here is what you do.

Go to whatever directory Rome is installed to and open the common folder.

For me it is E:\Games\Paradox Interactive\Europa Universalis - Rome\common

Now, open the defines.txt file.

Search for _MDEF_LAND_DAMAGE_MODIFIER_

In vanilla it is set to .1

I have personally set it to .3 and the combat is pretty brutal. It usually doesn't take more than two or three battles to wipe a very large army out.

Be mindful that this goes both ways. If you see a stack of 30 Roman cohorts bearing down on your 16 cohorts, run. If you are unable to escape before the battle starts, manually retreat as soon as possible because your force will very likely lose 50% of its strength at least.

Occasionally you will end up having to chase around armies that are not being given time to recoup morale. You will still get the 5 days to pound on them however.

All in all I am pretty happy with the level of ping ponging going on.
 
The 5 day rule hasn't been as effective as I'd hoped. I think that's basically one dice roll.

IMO once an army loses a battle it's morale should be set to zero and shouldn't begin to increase until it's arrived in it 'retreated' province. There should also be a decent chance that, after a defeat, non loyal units will flee (disband)

A nice additional step would be if it were much easier to kill/capture the general of a low morale army.. and if done the army would auto-disband. Maybe units disbanded in this way could show up back in the manpower pools later.
 
Hmmm I hate to say it, but pointing out to Johan that this game was in fact nothing new, but was in reality the old EU Engine but prettified & tweaked, got swift denial....

I have to agree with all of the above..I wanted so much for this game to be a culmination of everything good about EU with all the gripes, problems and bugs ironed out. Surely they should have learnt. Its not, its the same old with now new problems.

I so much loved EU2 (faults and all) but then it was fresh and new...ground-breaking in scope. Paradox seemed to now have settled for mediocre. Churning out genre, after genre without actually giving us anything of note.

I think Paradox have lost their edge, quick revamps are now the norm..for a quick buck!

I hope for their and our sake they innovate again, and produce down the line another Great Classic...
 
We don't want the game to turn into computer Ancient RISK though. So, there still needs to be some ping ponging just not at rediculous levels. Wars with majors should last years as they did in history. If we could take out Carthage in a few years and then clean up the rest of the map in 100 years how historical or realistic would that be? There should be SOME epic battles where most of the enemy is destroyed, but, not everyone of them and not really a huge portion of them in one battle. I don't think anyone has had time to play a full complete game unless they just fast forwarded the game and didn't even do much of anything but fight. So, the game needs more time to settle in and people get aquainted with the way it's going to work. Don't let a few criers spoil what might just be better than is being implied. Grogs always complain anyway.

Oh and one more thing I found if I kept small legions behind my main army while attacking that the enemy AI would retreat backwards and not through me. So covering your rear provinces with some units will pretty much stop that forward retreating unless there is just nowhere to retreat to their rear.
 
STGeorge said:
Hmmm I hate to say it, but pointing out to Johan that this game was in fact nothing new, but was in reality the old EU Engine but prettified & tweaked, got swift denial....

I have to agree with all of the above..I wanted so much for this game to be a culmination of everything good about EU with all the gripes, problems and bugs ironed out. Surely they should have learnt. Its not, its the same old with now new problems.

I so much loved EU2 (faults and all) but then it was fresh and new...ground-breaking in scope. Paradox seemed to now have settled for mediocre. Churning out genre, after genre without actually giving us anything of note.

I think Paradox have lost their edge, quick revamps are now the norm..for a quick buck!

I hope for their and our sake they innovate again, and produce down the line another Great Classic...

Ah this sounds like you never tried the games with patches and expansions. Vicky, CK, HoI2 are classics to me even though i was a little disappointed after release each time. Maybe we just have a different taste, though.
 
I agree, the ping pong armies are still there, even with teh 1.1. patch. Further more, I have a feeling, that this issue is even more common now than it was in EU3. As Carthage f.e. I can't wage a war in Spain because of that. I attacked Lusitania, neat their armies, take one of their provinces, *move to their second (and last) province, beat their army there, began to siege a province while their defeated army retreated to the province occupied by me and strat sieging it. So I had no option but ot terminate my siege and attack them. I beat them, they retreated to their second province, etc, goto *.
This is absurd
 
Spricar said:
I agree, the ping pong armies are still there, even with teh 1.1. patch. Further more, I have a feeling, that this issue is even more common now than it was in EU3. As Carthage f.e. I can't wage a war in Spain because of that. I attacked Lusitania, neat their armies, take one of their provinces, *move to their second (and last) province, beat their army there, began to siege a province while their defeated army retreated to the province occupied by me and strat sieging it. So I had no option but ot terminate my siege and attack them. I beat them, they retreated to their second province, etc, goto *.
This is absurd

Or use more than one army?
 
The damage is good now, but its the capacity to siege after you crush an army that is annoying. If I attack a 2 province minor with my 8 province medium, they'll have taken half my territory by the time I beat and take theirs (AI hammers assaults to the point of stupidity for their manpower). I don't recall many campaigns where the victors on the field had half their country occupied while they were delivering the final blow.

Then of course you have to go lift the occupations, so you end up playing whack-a-mole with them until you get lucky and manage to occupy their 2 and they hold none at the time, win. But you also lost all your governors and trade routes so you need to go through and re-add all those. This is the definition of fun.
 
Kaelic said:
The damage is good now, but its the capacity to siege after you crush an army that is annoying. If I attack a 2 province minor with my 8 province medium, they'll have taken half my territory by the time I beat and take theirs (AI hammers assaults to the point of stupidity for their manpower). I don't recall many campaigns where the victors on the field had half their country occupied while they were delivering the final blow.

Then of course you have to go lift the occupations, so you end up playing whack-a-mole with them until you get lucky and manage to occupy their 2 and they hold none at the time, win. But you also lost all your governors and trade routes so you need to go through and re-add all those. This is the definition of fun.
Why don't you try using siege armies? I have some armies for battles and some for sieges. When I beat an enemy army in one of his provinces I will let my field army stay in that province untill my siege army arrives. Then it will take over the siege and I can pursue the enemy eventually wiping him out. You really need more than one army to win.
 
...nobody fielded loads of armies around their territory while on the offensive just to protect themselves. Fool. The best we have are garrisons, and 2000 men seem to siege 2000 men a bit too easily.
 
Derek Pullem said:
Or use more than one army?

Unfortunately a defeated army arrives in it's retreated province in pretty good shape so you would need to have a 2nd army of comparable size to deal with it.. and that's just not practical in many situations. If you're going to war with a kingdom of similar manpower strength you can't have 2 armies for every one of theirs. (One to defeat it, and another to chase it around the map for ages)
 
rasmus40 said:
Why don't you try using siege armies? I have some armies for battles and some for sieges. When I beat an enemy army in one of his provinces I will let my field army stay in that province untill my siege army arrives. Then it will take over the siege and I can pursue the enemy eventually wiping him out. You really need more than one army to win.

Because I am playing this to enjoy history, not to build tactics around the poor game mechanics.
 
Kaelic said:
...nobody fielded loads of armies around their territory while on the offensive just to protect themselves. Fool. The best we have are garrisons, and 2000 men seem to siege 2000 men a bit too easily.

I take offense to that. I manage to play the game and win wars without half my country getting occupied, so how am i the fool here ?
 
Agree, disagree, I don't care much for.

However, I DO care for manners. So I suggest that everyone behaves and respects the rules of common courtesy.

If you're having trouble with that, try rereading the forum rules before making a new post.