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@delta180 thank you, that was very interesting. Once upon a time when people used to make strategy guides for games, this exploit would have made a great addition. It's unfortunate we don't keep such information in a systematized manner, because there is probably lots of such knowledge on the forum that's lost. Instead, there are paid chatbot/search engine services which index what we write, and offer the information for money, but that's another subject.

Your GDP-layer map in 1856 looks exactly like mine as well :D

It also illustrates what I see as a problem with the game balance. With regard to how I play, I doubt I would have found this exploit on my own in thousands of hours. My reasoning is - I've already broken the game enough in order to lose interest, so why look for an even more optimized strategy.

I feel like much of the intricacy of the systems, which is undoubtedly there, is lost when the player can succeed without having to know the systems. The devs wouldn't have designed all these layers of simulation and poured all the pops and province data, only for the game to be cheesed. In this example we have, you know of the exploit, I don't know of it, but the difference is only by how much we can break the game. This breaks the illusion of realism for me and ultimately makes me lose interest.
 
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t also illustrates what I see as a problem with the game balance. With regard to how I play, I doubt I would have found this exploit on my own in thousands of hours. My reasoning is - I've already broken the game enough in order to lose interest, so why look for an even more optimized strategy.

I feel like much of the intricacy of the systems, which is undoubtedly there, is lost when the player can succeed without having to know the systems. The devs wouldn't have designed all these layers of simulation and poured all the pops and province data, only for the game to be cheesed. In this example we have, you know of the exploit, I don't know of it, but the difference is only by how much we can break the game. This breaks the illusion of realism for me and ultimately makes me lose interest.
I completely agree with this, the harder the game, the more it pushes you to learn it and be creative in ways to gain an advantage, which is why I think it is awful that the game released without any difficulty settings. Why should you learn how to maximize foreign investments if you can beat the Ottomans, and become a great power without that. In a game not about blobbing, the AI needs to compete with you into the late game, and it doesn't.

The infamy cap on expansion, doesn't make up for what should be a good political simulation but is sorely lacking in the difficulty that makes such a game fun. I don't ever feel like I am in competition with other great powers for resources or land, because even if I don't expand at all, they will slowly fall behind a player who knows what they are doing, even if that player is limited to a single province.

I am lucky enough that I enjoy the other part of Vic 3, which is the simulations and spreadsheets, maximizing my population, GDP and SoL by crunching numbers and engaging with all the different menus and choices and even the game code. But like you, I imagine most people are more interested in a simulation of a 19th century country, which the game just doesn't do as well.
 
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To be honest, providing advantageous options for investment (high returns, high safety), and as a result, getting a disproportionate share of investment shouldn’t be cheese. In fact, it should be one of the most important economy mechanics.

However, now it’s not natural and is a consequence of poor AI decision making regarding construction capacity and building queue (which was arguably a mistake to implement regardless of how well AI deals with it).
 
The Ottoman Empire's government investing in its vassals Serbia, Wallachia, and Moldova is pure fantasy. Wallachia and Moldova actually both had a legal right to expulsate muslims and confiscate their property. This was granted to them in the Russian-Ottoman treaties which established the two principalities as formal Ottoman subjects under Russian protection. Not only would there be no investment, but what assets there were were being confiscated. The historical course is the opposite of what the game shows.

Nor did the Ottoman Empire have the means to build up industries in its formal subjects. It was suffering from being unable to enforce its authority over parts of its own territory at the time (1830s-1840s). In game terms - the OE player should be busy solving the Tanzimat JEs. Maybe they ought to be rebalanced to hit his investment pool contributions too.
 
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The Ottoman Empire's government investing in its vassals Serbia, Wallachia, and Moldova is pure fantasy. Wallachia and Moldova actually both had a legal right to expulsate muslims and confiscate their property. This was granted to them in the Russian-Ottoman treaties which established the two principalities as formal Ottoman subjects under Russian protection. Not only would there be no investment, but what assets there were were being confiscated. The historical course is the opposite of what the game shows.

Nor did the Ottoman Empire have the means to build up industries in its formal subjects. It was suffering from being unable to enforce its authority over parts of its own territory at the time (1830s-1840s). In game terms - the OE player should be busy solving the Tanzimat JEs. Maybe they ought to be rebalanced to hit his investment pool contributions too.
Actully, the Wallachian princes were not only appointed by the Ottoman Empire often from within the Empire, but enjoyed sizable investment from a particular class of semi-noble Ottoman merchants, the Phanariots. The Phanariots were educated Greeks from noble Byzantine decent who acted as merchants, translators and officials for the Ottoman Empire, however many started to live in and trade within the Danubian Principalities because they were wealthy, had better commercial laws and gave opportunity for elevated status by marrying into the Boyar Nobility or even being appointed as Prince by the Ottoman Sultanate. Indeed the ruler of Wallachia at the game start is a Phanariot whose family originally had come from Albania, before making wealth as merchants and then marrying into the Boyar Nobility and settling in Wallachia.

The Russians moving in and setting up consulates, far from stifling investments, encouraged it as in an attempt to shore up control of Wallachia, Russian diplomats started granting merchants Romanian citizenship and immunity to the local law (Sudiți) to outcompete the local guilds, which was met in kind by Russia's rivals the Austrians and French doing the same thing to stop Russia from gaining control over the Danube.
 
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This.
While I agree on most aspects you've diligently reported above, this 2nd point is my current grieve with Vic3 as a whole (and it's growing): immersion / the immersive depiction of the Victorian age, especially in regards to the different countries and cultures.
Just one example in regards to classical economic theory: the huge disparity of wealth and assets between old landlords (land) vs. the upcoming rich entrepreneurs (machines / tech) and the ...rest (labour) in Germany, leading to clashes (and deaths) between the classes but also to the (if I remember correctly) first social security system in Europe by law. After almost 3 years I still don't see this special focus (and yes, I know this is a game but still...).

Granted, the devs have introduced and seem to introduce additional mechanics in Charters of Commerce, where the disparity of wealth for rich strata and new corporations (with entrepreneurs) will hopefully play a more central role. But since v1.4 (my first playthrough) I'm still waiting for this immersion...and I don't think it will come in v1.9?
I think that a simple change of making radicalization increase due to income disparity should already massively improve this aspect.
 
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Actully, the Wallachian princes were not only appointed by the Ottoman Empire often from within the Empire, but enjoyed sizable investment from a particular class of semi-noble Ottoman merchants, the Phanariots. The Phanariots were educated Greeks from noble Byzantine decent who acted as merchants, translators and officials for the Ottoman Empire, however many started to live in and trade within the Danubian Principalities because they were wealthy, had better commercial laws and gave opportunity for elevated status by marrying into the Boyar Nobility or even being appointed as Prince by the Ottoman Sultanate. Indeed the ruler of Wallachia at the game start is a Phanariot whose family originally had come from Albania, before making wealth as merchants and then marrying into the Boyar Nobility and settling in Wallachia.

The Russians moving in and setting up consulates, far from stifling investments, encouraged it as in an attempt to shore up control of Wallachia, Russian diplomats started granting merchants Romanian citizenship and immunity to the local law (Sudiți) to outcompete the local guilds, which was met in kind by Russia's rivals the Austrians and French doing the same thing to stop Russia from gaining control over the Danube.
Mostly yes, I didn't go into much exposition regarding the Phanariots' role as a class, because it dates back to the early 18th century and by the mid-19th they are very much part of the landcape already and settled in the principalities. I don't know that they are much into investments, more into extraction from the principalities' estates.
 
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One issue with comparing player driven Wallachia to historical Wallachia is the fact that in real life it wasn't controlled by omniscient immortal puppet master that, regardless of people "in charge", could execute plans spanning decades.

We as players can do so much more than people controlling the nations (even today) that I don't see it weird that we can make every single country wildly successful compared to its historical counterpart.
 
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I don't know that they are much into investments, more into extraction from the principalities' estates.
that is what foreign investment is in Vic 3, all the profits go back to the investor, the investor only pays the cost of buying the building, in Vic 3 foreign investors don't even pay dividend taxes since that is collected from the place the investment comes from, so any profit a foreign owned business earns is completely worthless to the country the building is in.
 
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that is what foreign investment is in Vic 3, all the profits go back to the investor, the investor only pays the cost of buying the building, in Vic 3 foreign investors don't even pay dividend taxes since that is collected from the place the investment comes from, so any profit a foreign owned business earns is completely worthless to the country the building is in.
I wouldn't say "completely worthless".

It still pays wages to the workers which are taxed and if there is worker shortage, but big profits it does increase wages to get workers.
 
It still pays wages to the workers which are taxed and if there is worker shortage, but big profits it does increase wages to get workers.
wages aren't profit, but they do make up the bulk of the tax income from any building (unless you use graduated taxation), which is why foreign investment is so powerful, especially if you still have lots of subsistence farmers.
 
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I would like to play a game with this bonus removed and see how easy it is to increase GPD, it is easy enough to change this number to a 0 in static modifiers and boot up the game with it removed, the issue is that there is no way to build a construction sector without this starting construction, so I can't really grow my economy at all.
The solution could be removing the base CP altogether, and tying CPs to Subsistence Buildings (or, better, Artisanal Workshops, instead). Let's say, every Subsistence Building produces a minuscule amount of CP along it's usual output. This way, "basic" (meaning not requiring Construction Sector) CP output would be effectively tied to Population. No more OPMs filled with variety of understaffed 1lvl Buildings.

A simpler solution, that could lay similar result, would be to tie base CPs directly to Population, with current 10CPs being a cap. For example, 1 CP per 1 Million Population, capped at 10 (so that Quing won't end up agistorically strong).
 
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CP output would be effectively tied to Population
I am personally not a fan of anything being directly tied to population, too many games use a population = strength approach that doesn't reflect history well, many of the world's largest populations are also poor countries, especially during the Vic 3 time period. Also countries that start with less than 1 million pops would have no construction still.
This also doesn't solve the main problem with base construction, which is that the first 10 construction points are completely free, you don't pay any material costs, so your buildings are made of paradox magic and you don't pay worker costs, or even employ workers, so they are built by fairies.
I would much prefer a system that simply gives every country a starting construction sector that they can employ and use to build other factories.
 
I am personally not a fan of anything being directly tied to population
Me neither. That's why I find tying non-Construction Sector CPs to Artisanal Workshops better solution.
Also countries that start with less than 1 million pops would have no construction still.
They would receive a portion of CP. 500k country would have 0.5 CP. Also, the mumbers might be tweaked - instead of 1CP per 1MLN it could be 2:1 or any other ratio, that would give the best results.
I would much prefer a system that simply gives every country a starting construction sector that they can employ and use to build other factories.
Smaller countries would have problem with paying for their employment and input resources, even with basic PM, resulting in their bankruptcy spirals.
 
The Ottoman Empire's government investing in its vassals Serbia, Wallachia, and Moldova is pure fantasy
The key word here is “government”.

The Ottoman public, while could have some patriotic bias, can very well be expected to mostly invest where the returns are better.

This doesn’t really excuse the current situation, as artificial limits to construction lead to almost no options for the Ottoman IP to invest domestically. But in principle, siphoning investment from the overlord by providing better investment opportunities should totally be a thing.
 
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The key word here is “government”.

The Ottoman public, while could have some patriotic bias, can very well be expected to mostly invest where the returns are better.

This doesn’t really excuse the current situation, as artificial limits to construction lead to almost no options for the Ottoman IP to invest domestically. But in principle, siphoning investment from the overlord by providing better investment opportunities should totally be a thing.

Both credit, i.e. money, and labor are more abundant ingame than was really the case.

Somewhat related, I was catching up on my modern Balkan history today with Baraba Jelavich's "History of the Balkans", where I came upon roughly the following:

In that period, the Romanian boyar won one more big boon. The end of the Ottoman Empire's right of primary buyer [regarding grain and agricultural produce, it seems the Empire had the top "Trade advantage" in game terms] opened up the Principalities for trade with the West just in the time when the demand for grain, to feed the growing population of the industrializing West, was growing ever greater
The bold-italic is from me, because this was my hint that this isn't represented in the game. In the game, hardly anyone needs Romanian grain (or anyone else's than maybe Russian and Chinese). If I'm France (which I have some experience with) there is simply too much free labor for de-peasanting until well into the game, and even then, there is no problem importing grain under the current trading system. Hopefully the new one will make things more interesting. The problem is reducing the "local price" even after you are importing a good, lol :D

This passage also hints at why there may have not been a great incentive to invest in Romanian industry - the profits were good enough on existing export deals, which didn't require the upfront cost of investment which manufacturing industry presupposes, plus that meant finding the financing first. Both labor and capital were in shorter supply IRL than they are in the game.

I'm still determined to continue listing issues with the gameplay experience, from the perspective of how samey it is, but I just can't find the time to write.
 
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I read the post with pleasure and it fits my feelings very well (even though they come in a bit of a different flavour).

There are multiple thing that behave very ahistoric and break immersion. Missing authority issues, slow population growth (under the right circumstances it explodes and this is really bad for the wages, and with bad events added it causes hunger and unrest). Base prices are fixed, so oil or steel in 1920 has (nearly) the same relative price to food as in 1840 (which it doesn't have at all). The rise of the industry NEEDS the abundance of food, freeing up workers. And the same again with coal or iron mining efficiency. The impact of tech (machines, workflow, chemical processes, medicine) is massively underrepresented. Pickaxe mining vs dynamite and coal powered drills... come on. That's huge. HUGE!

The game shows it like private farms are just much more efficient than subsistence but that's not true per se. Subsistence farms also got a lot more efficient in this period. They were relevant far into the 20th century even in the industrial core (Germany for example), let alone Russia or India.

So I feel what is lacking most is more materialism (change is triggered by the economic status of the pops, economics is influenced by the pops and the land) compared to random bonuses from IGs or law, especially economic laws. State bonuses are a start, but we need this stronger and nuanced, including capital sinks (building canals, reservoirs, ports, improving rivers, building tunnels...).
 
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I started with that summary of the economic model and how well it maps onto reality, in order to make two main arguments.

The first is that the model needs some balancing. The discussion revealed that the smaller the country, the more likely the human player diverges from the realistic performance of that economy, because of the "free construction capacity" abstraction.

On a sidenote, for bigger countries, the human player is likely to diverge from the realistic performance of that economy for other gamey reasons, the chief of which is that she or he can create a political and legal setup for the country ingame, which is difficult to imagine happening in real life. Things like Free Trade + Laissez-faire in any large country besides Britain, or colonizing in the "right" states, various exploits, you get the idea. We could wave this away as "easily fixable through house rules by the player". I'd be ok with that, if the game hinted at the uninformed player what this country's general play style ought to be. So, more historical flavour content would be appreciated, as usual.

The second argument I wanted to make is that Victoria 3 can't be a complete game about the Victorian Era, not in the way in which Europa Universalis 4 is a complete game about the transition to modernity, unless Victoria 3 provides the player with the mechanics, and the narrative content, to let him discover the story of this transition.

To take again on the theme about the disparity between actors being the defining feature of the Victorian Era, let's see how it's reflected in the development of their societies around the time the game starts.

Of course, providing even a bird's eye view of each of the world's major poilities' institutional and social development in the first third of the 19th century is a task way above my qualifications as a one-time student of history. The best I can do is attempt to make a typology, and sketch a rough order of tiers of development, while enumerating some of the countries which would fall into each tier. We already have tiers of countries in the game (big thumbs up for bringing this Victoria games feature back), so I guess I'm going in the right direction, although I'm classifying here based on different metrics.

So, here goes a huge exposition, most of it you probably are aware of, with some of it you will likely disagree. Take it as a general description of the "measuring stick" I'm using when evaluating how good a job Victoria 3 is doing at portraying the historical period.

First in my rough typology would be the countries at the leading edge of institutional development. Great Britain, the United States, The Netherlands, France. Countries which, to a varying degree, had solved, or in the case of France, had gone to a significant length towards solving, the big question of citizen rights and setting up the "social contract", so that both the government and the governed population were content in their positions. In these countries, the political order of the day, the "agenda", was revolving roughly around questions such as abolition, and/or widening the franchise, and/or securing the rights of workers.

All of these questions were a luxury subject, fit for salon discussions, or debates in literary societies, or universities, but in any case out of reach of the agendas for the next tier of countries. Those were the European countries which, to a varying extent were still living in the shadow of the French Revolution and post-Bonapart era. All those places where the Revolution had lefts its mark on the elites, and to some degree on the masses, but where the elites were now trying to continue as if the Revolution and Bonapartist "import of revolution" hadn't happened. Prussia, Austria, the wider German-speaking space, Spain, and the Italian space. Those were the countries where parts of society wanted to see their own societies catch up to the advances of those in tier one, against the opposition of the elites, or against that of other states.

On the edge of this tier, but in my opinion still outside of it, was Russia. Russia's "political society" was too thin a slice of its pie chart for the country to merit being included in the second tier. It certainly existed, but it took two decades and a major setback in world affairs to push it towards societal reform, and even then, it was reform imposed from above. So, let's just leave it at "Russia is its own thing" for now.

Russia, however, I'd also place in another "club", together with the aforementioned Prussia and Austria. That club is the tier of countries which carried the ethos of being the victors over the Revolution, the major non-liberal powers of the Congress of Vienna. They are the ones most interested in preserving the status quo specifically in terms of spheres of influence and in terms of borders within Europe. Prussia would soon switch towards attempts to alter the status quo, but we are not discussing this yet. Another unifying trait for these countries is the existence of large groups of society which would soon begin acting on their own aspirations for achieving nationhood - Poles, Hungarians, Italians, etc. So that's tier three which partially overlaps with tier two.

Then come the countries in tier four, which I'd define as countries tangentially touched by the Revolution, where the elites are coping with its consequences, but where the massess are largely unaffected by Revolutionary ideas. Here I would put Egypt, the Ottoman Empire, and once again, Russia. On the agenda of the countries of this tier are the attempts of part of the elites to modernize, against the opposition of another part of the elites, but with the massess being on the whole voiceless and uninterested in the conflict. That's a major difference from the countries in the second and third tier. I simply don't see how this fits into the current mechanics.

Latin America occupies the next tier all on its own. Due to a host of factors, the chief of which was Spain's weakness and the inability or lack of desire of other powers to become involved in this region, I'd classify it as a geopolitical quiet corner and a microcosm which was mostly left out of the bigger discourse and where the post-colonial elites took on thier own path to resolve the problems of their own agendas.

Finally, tier six is everyone else. The remainder of the world which was either under colonial rule, or would be the object of attempts to be subjected to colonial rule. Here the agendas are much more local, much more singularly defined by the elites, with much less significance of the masses. The only two states that stand out are China, where formal independence is preserved by its sheer size and scale, and Japan, where the elites pushed the process of modernization instead of waiting to see "what would happen" otherwise. The political agenda here is again one of how to guide the transition, but this time from a much worse starting position than that of the countries in the fourth tier.

So, after all that, I think it's explained why I chose disparity as a leitmotif of the age.

Where is Victoria 3? As far as my expectations go, Victoria 3 hasn't scratched the surface of the task of presenting the socio-political side of the Victorian Era to its audience. It has been three rough years of unfortunate systems being ripped out and rewritten just to get the basic game loop of buildings and markets going in a satisfactory level of the depth of the simulation.

Just based on the quick geopolitical rundown that I gave above, you would expect countries occupying different tiers to present very different sets of problems for the player to solve. Yet in my opinion at least, this is very much not the case in Victoria 3, rather it's the opposite. Countries from very different socio-political contexts play surprisingly, and disappointingly, the same as one another.

The mechanics modelling the political processes seem to be intended to fit countries mainly of the first and second tier, with the rest of the world feeling unconvincingly forced into a "Procrustes' bed" of the Interest Groups-Parties-Clout-Laws set of mechanics.

Before someone objects - yes, I get it, these mechanics are meant to represent various country-specific institutions in a more abstract way. The "Laws" would have been better named "legal framework" because they are themselves very abstracted as well.

These are my subjective impressions, but what I can't shake off, as a player, is that at the end of the day, there are one-size-fits-all solutions and setups, i.e. "states" of these mechanics. The representation is so abstract that the country's peculiarities are not discernable, and societal issues seem to be dealt with in the same way. The player finds a way to empower the IG with the "right" legislative agenda, set up his legal framework and then forgets about the whole system.

Such has been my experience with Germany, Russia, France, Sweden. And when it comes to the input of the country's society, political elite, "zeitgeist", it feels as if this one-third of the game has not been implemented beyond proof-of-concept level.

To these problems we need to add the Technologies tree. Some of the technologies there represent discoveries in various scientific fields, whereas others represent societal institutions which took decades to develop their own vartiants in this or that society. In the game it takes a few years to catch up to revolutionary thought as, say, China.

I have much fewer solutions to suggest here than I have problems to point out. I think the direction to explore in terms of mechanics changes is the toggling of certain mechanics with relation to the country tier and legal framework (form of government, taxes, economic system, etc) as well as established institutions. Same as Laissez-faire disables nationalization and takes away from the government construction, the presense or absense of other "laws" could enable some diplomatic- or government-lens options and disable others. If I was designing the game, I'd lay into these lmitations to make different countries more unique to play.

Then I'd take the plunge and just begin developing a lot of country-specific flavor content and mechanics centered around specific historical situations or types of recurring situations throughout the period. Things on the scale of the Tanzimat reforms or the French July Monarchy, or the Great Game, are what I have in mind, but with more branching, more specific win conditions, and more end states.
 
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I agree basically completely with what’s been raised in this topic, but I think it is invariably going to have to take a long time to get to these sociopolitical goals.

1.9 is going to upend the balance of economic growth - devs have said on stream that the changes are resulting in much bigger AI economies. It remains to be seen how that turns out, but supposing this is true (and it seems reasonable that less autarky would result in more growth), there will certainly be further downstream effects, such as migration. One of the big issues that causes outsized player growth is that you are able to drain other countries of pops due to your economic snowball - if the AI builds better economies, to some degree this is mitigated.

I think the devs need to nail down the core economic and diplomatic loop for the game before it’s realistic to get into the more interesting society-sim stuff you bring up - without a strong core set of systems, you’re trying to build complex models on a poor foundation. Hopefully 1.9 gets trade fixed, but logistics, construction and diplomatic play / war systems that you’d need to simulate the interesting parts of the divergence you speak of are all still outstanding items that need to be addressed

Basically, I think until we get the physical and material simulations right, I think any attempt at the social simulations is a losing proposition because society is downstream to a significant extent of the material conditions. I would hope that by the end of 2026 we’ll be there but who knows.
 
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