What makes a Wizard-King?

[Orinsul]

Lore/Story speaking here, not mechanically.
But the mechanics create the problem.
Wizard-Kings are immortal Wizards who rule entire nations/realms/worlds and travel the Astral Sea and have done for a long time, scarred or driven mad by the torment of shadows, weildling mighty powers over mere mortals who either follow them or worship them as gods. We all know the basics, while champions, recently risen to challenge the WKs, haven't been tormented, haven't invaded over realms to rule over yet, yet already immortal and travelling the sea.

So there must be, something, a point, a transformation, shift in recognition or relationship, that turns a champion into a WK, surely the WKs were all once champions or the equiviliant in their own time.

But look at Sundren, from a previous age, tormented and driven mad from her time trapped in Umbra, with the other WKs, and under her disguise, wielding power over mortals and even other WKs, conquered and ruled over worlds who saw her as a god?
We understand why is a champion, mechanically and for their role in some missions, putting them on the champion side makes sense, Meandor is a Wizard King, Melenis too, storywise is this because we are seeing her transformation from champion to WK as the arc of the campaign? or what makes her still, a Champion and not a WK?
Is Arvik a WK because of his alignment/ambition crossed with his power? or was it what he experienced in the void or even something the Mammoth Primal bestowed?
Another example, Edward was lost in the void, suffered torment that drove him so made he became a vessel of chaos! he left a trial of destruction through the astral sea, world after world in flames, that's pretty archtype WK, but he's a champion? has it just all happened too fast to set in yet, or is it a choice, the shake off your mortal trappings and embrace your ascension, and become a WK? Could you be as WK-y as possible, out-Yaka even Yaka, yet if you refuse to acknowledge it and take up the power/recognition/title, remain a mere champion?
or does it require the belief of subjects, or even rival WKs that you are one?

 

[Vladisi]

Pretty sure the difference is almost purely in mentality, and I think Sundren being able to play the part of one proves it.

Champions cling to mortality and their culture, while WKs claim loftier titles (notably, the humblest-sounding default WK title is High Priest/ess for Order, which is still implicitly a proclamation of being the right hand of the Allfather) and have grown divorced from their people (or found or created them, thus being on a different level from them in the first place).

Sundren is a Champion of the Torchbearers, but she can convincingly play the role of a Wizard King (although she notably doesn't so much play Lithyl as she plays her more moral lookalike, given that the real Lithyl heavily uses Chaos tomes both in the intro cinematic and her ES appearance, while Sundren's Lithyl is Astral/Shadow)
The AoW2 WKs are also WKs in 4, so that's a legacy title and it would be weird if they weren't.
Melenis has always been a larger-than-life sorceress since AoW1 where she literally buried dwarven kingdoms with earthquakes, died, was resurrected as a lich, died again, returned to Athla as a lich in order to exterminate all life and was thwarted again. There's nothing that binds her to her people. Pretty sure there never was a point at which she was already Godir but wouldn't be considered a WK (her being Champion before the patch notwithstanding).
Arvik's entire story started with him being essentially the last of his clan and turning to necromancy in the first place due to there not being a lot of people he could call his own.
Edward was possessed and not entirely himself, and even then he was opposed to WKs on principle, viewing himself as an avenger of those who suffered at the WKs' hands.

 

[Snorro Soliman]

Interesting question! My take:
I think the difference is the origin of their power as 'Rulers'. Fundamentally all Rulers exclusively wield the game's strategic magics and are both functionally immortal in game (returns as long as their Throne is present) and truly immortal (destroying the Throne just banishes them).
I think Wizard Kings were never 'mortal' at all,but are more like MTG's planeswalkers. Immortal beings made up of a uniquely powerful 'spark' or soul, which allows them to wield mighty magics and change their form. Perhaps this happens over time after ascenscion, or they originate in the Astral Sea itself?

Mortal champions unlock some ability to transcend mortality itself, or unlock the same 'spark'.

Eldritch rulers might have been either a Wizard King or Ascended Mortal, but are altered by succumbing to the torment of shadows completely, having their minds and Form permanently twisted, but wielding the powers of the Astral Sea in return.
Rulers that merely suffered the Torment, but do not 'break', retain their previous status and do not become Eldritch.
An example is Merlin, who <sniff> broke to save Julia and got chtullu-ed. Even the mightiest can fall...
Dragon Rulers are godlike lizard-wizards, whose souls are naturally powerful and also seem to be able to cheat death ('Primordial Power' in game terms).

I suspect all these beings together fall under broadly the same category (Ruler) only because they have similar 'power levels'. In fact AoW4 refers to all these beings as 'Godir'.

Soooo....a WK is a Godir, an immortal demigod who wanders the cosmos at will, and messes with worlds for their own, arcane purposes?

 

[Orinsul]

Pretty sure the difference is almost purely in mentality, and I think Sundren being able to play the part of one proves it.

Champions cling to mortality and their culture, while WKs claim loftier titles (notably, the humblest-sounding default WK title is High Priest/ess for Order, which is still implicitly a proclamation of being the right hand of the Allfather) and have grown divorced from their people (or found or created them, thus being on a different level from them in the first place).

Sundren is a Champion of the Torchbearers, but she can convincingly play the role of a Wizard King (although she notably doesn't so much play Lithyl as she plays her more moral lookalike, given that the real Lithyl heavily uses Chaos tomes both in the intro cinematic and her ES appearance, while Sundren's Lithyl is Astral/Shadow)
The AoW2 WKs are also WKs in 4, so that's a legacy title and it would be weird if they weren't.
Melenis has always been a larger-than-life sorceress since AoW1 where she literally buried dwarven kingdoms with earthquakes, died, was resurrected as a lich, died again, returned to Athla as a lich in order to exterminate all life and was thwarted again. There's nothing that binds her to her people. Pretty sure there never was a point at which she was already Godir but wouldn't be considered a WK (her being Champion before the patch notwithstanding).
Arvik's entire story started with him being essentially the last of his clan and turning to necromancy in the first place due to there not being a lot of people he could call his own.
Edward was possessed and not entirely himself, and even then he was opposed to WKs on principle, viewing himself as an avenger of those who suffered at the WKs' hands.

I like this reading, the difference being in their relationship and tethers to their subjects, once they start drifting away from their 'humanity' they slip into Wizard-Kingity

 

[STARSDragoon]

The border is really blurry. The main point seems to be:
Champion is still seen as part of their race they rule. They are good with people and focus on those.
Wizardking: isnt necessarily part of their race anymore or rules another race entirely. Focus is on magic, not the people.

Examples include noctus, who according to lore could as easily be a champion. But his focus on the arcane makes him a wk.

And sundren

Spoiler: Story spoiler

has no problems switching between sundren champion and lythil alter persona wizardking and managed to trick whole magehaven into thinking the alter persona is a real wk. Which means champion and wk can become or pretend to be the other

 

[STARSDragoon]

On a sidenote. Eldritch sovereign are anything powerfull but alien. Former godir gone mad usually. But one of the official ones has as lore being a critter on a World that got corrupted by urrath. Next thing it knows, its an Eldritch sovereign.

So i guess for ES goes anything sufficiently alien. A champion or godir who did weird experiments on themselves. A bunch of lost souls fused together with enough magic power. The embodiment of rage borne out of the feelings of a realm.

 

[Blanch Warren]

Sundren is not very old, comparatively speaking. Most of her background was as a rouge, though I guess she's shifted toward Order. I don't know how much arcane power she has in the first place.

I think Wizard Kings were never 'mortal' at all,but are more like MTG's planeswalkers. Immortal beings made up of a uniquely powerful 'spark' or soul, which allows them to wield mighty magics and change their form. Perhaps this happens over time after ascenscion, or they originate in the Astral Sea itself?

I rather doubt that would be the case for most or at least all them. Some of them are just Elves. It's quite possible for a hero to become a wizard king, at least in theory.

 

[Orinsul]

In elf terms, Meandor and Melenis aren't that much elder than Sundred
and the once human WK like Yaka, I doubt he was that old when he became a WK, unless he spent eon as a champion, but he, like Nimue, Aracna, Arctica, appear to be Atla natives, so they can't be ages older, Yaka was just a dude, a random maybe Azrac? maybe Human wizard who, had enough power and ego to pass himself off as a God, and make others worship him and, became a WK

When we knew Melenis and Meandor in AoW1 they weren't WK, weren't even ascended champions, were just dudes, but by 2, well they had both died and become undead with major world changing magic having flown through them so fair, that would change you.

 

[Goblin-Cookie]

They are really similar things mechanically, unlike with other ruler-types.

I believe that wizard-kings are uniquely possessed of the ability to create races, which is really more like to *define* a group of somewhat diverse beings as a race in a magical sense. Once defined, all members of a race can be altered magically through transformations, which is why races were defined in the first place. More darkly, it can be used to exterminate entire races by 'transforming' existing creatures in such a way that will kill them (what happened to the Azracs and Lizardmen).

But while Wizard-Kings can define races, they cannot undefine them. Furthermore they may lose or relinquish control (Keepership) over a race, even one they originally created and this is how champions come about.

Champions are mortals who have taken over one of the races, becoming the equivalent of a wizard-king in many ways, but they lack the ability to define new races and their status is bound to continued control over their main race, unlike with the wizard-kings.

In elf terms, Meandor and Melenis aren't that much elder than Sundred
and the once human WK like Yaka, I doubt he was that old when he became a WK, unless he spent eon as a champion, but he, like Nimue, Aracna, Arctica, appear to be Atla natives, so they can't be ages older, Yaka was just a dude, a random maybe Azrac? maybe Human wizard who, had enough power and ego to pass himself off as a God, and make others worship him and, became a WK

When we knew Melenis and Meandor in AoW1 they weren't WK, weren't even ascended champions, were just dudes, but by 2, well they had both died and become undead with major world changing magic having flown through them so fair, that would change you.

There is a difference between wizard kings and Godir. Those beings were already wizard kings, but some of them did not become Godir until the end of Age of Wonders III, when Athla was unsealed from the Astral Sea.

But the actual members of the Wizard's Circle, they were probably Godir all along. Inioch stole the Wizard-King status from them, which was then inherited by Julia+Meandor, with the latter passing it on to Melenis.

The issue is that it would seem that Sundren actually chose not to become a Wizard King, since her ability to impersonate one in Story Mission V, implies that she has the necessary knowledge/power.

I also suspect that Meandor used his Wizard-King status to define the Dark Elves as a separate race, as opposed to being merely a faction with the Elves.

 

[Orphalesion]

I pretty much have it resolved this way for myself:

Champions are leaders who arose from the ranks of their people and, even if it has been centuries since their ascension, and even if they were temporarily split from them while being lost in the Astral Sea, still lead their original people.

Wizard Kings meanwhile are people or entities who came from outside and either created their own people (such as Yaka with the Tigrans or Tempest with the Draconians), subjugated some already existing people, or became the leader of a formally independent people in some other way. Plus at least some of the Wizard Kings are demons, god-like entities, and other kinds of beings who can change their shape.

Now I'm not entirely sure if that applies to every single premade faction, but that's how I handle it when creating backstories for my custom factions.

 

[Orinsul]

They are really similar things mechanically, unlike with other ruler-types.

I believe that wizard-kings are uniquely possessed of the ability to create races, which is really more like to *define* a group of somewhat diverse beings as a race in a magical sense. Once defined, all members of a race can be altered magically through transformations, which is why races were defined in the first place. More darkly, it can be used to exterminate entire races by 'transforming' existing creatures in such a way that will kill them (what happened to the Azracs and Lizardmen).

But while Wizard-Kings can define races, they cannot undefine them. Furthermore they may lose or relinquish control (Keepership) over a race, even one they originally created and this is how champions come about.

Champions are mortals who have taken over one of the races, becoming the equivalent of a wizard-king in many ways, but they lack the ability to define new races and their status is bound to continued control over their main race, unlike with the wizard-kings.



There is a difference between wizard kings and Godir. Those beings were already wizard kings, but some of them did not become Godir until the end of Age of Wonders III, when Athla was unsealed from the Astral Sea.

But the actual members of the Wizard's Circle, they were probably Godir all along. Inioch stole the Wizard-King status from them, which was then inherited by Julia+Meandor, with the latter passing it on to Melenis.

The issue is that it would seem that Sundren actually chose not to become a Wizard King, since her ability to impersonate one in Story Mission V, implies that she has the necessary knowledge/power.

I also suspect that Meandor used his Wizard-King status to define the Dark Elves as a separate race, as opposed to being merely a faction with the Elves.

altering the form and nature of their followers, is what all Godir do, Champion, Dragon, WK, its heart and centre of AoW4 gameplay so of it's worlds and nature too. And in AoW1 Dark Elves are explicitly not a seperate 'race', they are elves who by living underground, turn green, and have different set of units because they're culturally different, and live underground because they're hunted, hiding and working in secret. They're not a race, characters have gone between. If Talic had quit the Cult and spent enough time above ground he'd have stopped being a dark elf.
I don't think the WK weren't Godir in previous games either, Yaka definetly was, Arachna, Arctica and Nimue too, though we saw none of them we saw their worshippers, Melenis, Julia and Meandor weren't, but were by AoW2, Ascension to Godir isn't new, it's the name for it and political structure of Magehaven that's new.

Either Gabriel is clear cut both Wizardking and Godir, or it's going to be revealed Archons are a whole separate power level and detatchment from reality that they don't even fit in to such catagories.

 

[Orinsul]

I pretty much have it resolved this way for myself:

Champions are leaders who arose from the ranks of their people and, even if it has been centuries since their ascension, and even if they were temporarily split from them while being lost in the Astral Sea, still lead their original people.

Wizard Kings meanwhile are people or entities who came from outside and either created their own people (such as Yaka with the Tigrans or Tempest with the Draconians), subjugated some already existing people, or became the leader of a formally independent people in some other way. Plus at least some of the Wizard Kings are demons, god-like entities, and other kinds of beings who can change their shape.

Now I'm not entirely sure if that applies to every single premade faction, but that's how I handle it when creating backstories for my custom factions.

Ae, it appears to be linked to relationship to faction, how they are seen, more than what they are? but also likely how they see themselves which drives the other? It does seem like they should trend towards WK-ness over centuries as it'd take alot to still be seen as a champion after generations have passed under you?

 

[STARSDragoon]

I think noctus has also a backstory to consider. He died and essentially revived himself. Leads his old people but is a wizardking. Though, havent read his story in a while, but i think that was the core of it.

 

[Cybersbe]

My understanding, based on how I read the flavor text for pre-made factions, is that while mortals definitely CAN become Wizard Kings, not ALL Wizard Kings were once mortal. The best examples I can think of off the top of my head are Khir Uranon and Frikka Dinosys, who are demons. (The latter's Halfling form is stated to be a disguise.) I also suspect there's something to the gameplay mechanics of Champions having to share Race Transformations with their starting race, but Wizard Kings being allowed to opt out. Suffice to say, Champions are mortal, while Wizard KIngs are... something else. (I generally treat all otherworldly humanoid beings as falling under the Wizard King label.) They may or may not have been mortal once, but even if they have, the torment of shadows has physically transformed them somehow.

BTW, on the subject of Eldritch Sovereigns, I always thought they were Lost Wizards who have somehow managed to regain their sanity (or at least, something resembling sanity).

 

[Orinsul]

wizard kings can opt how of transformations? how do you do that?

Some of the ES definetly were lost wizards, others have had different umbral transformations, like that one that has been fighting umbra so long theyve become it
The story campaign says Maer/Mermaids are also mechanically ES, but I as there's no faction, I'm not sure if that's intended to mean that, or if they used ES for that hero for mechanics reasons

 

[Vladisi]

wizard kings can opt how of transformations? how do you do that?

Some of the ES definetly were lost wizards, others have had different umbral transformations, like that one that has been fighting umbra so long theyve become it
The story campaign says Maer/Mermaids are also mechanically ES, but I as there's no faction, I'm not sure if that's intended to mean that, or if they used ES for that hero for mechanics reasons

There's a checkbox on the transformation screen that asks if the WK is to be included.

And I'm pretty sure Azanya is a Maer who became an ES due to her imprisonment on Tharru'Cath rather than her naturally being one. We've already had Elya with a unique model to show what the Maer are supposed to look like normally (not to mention that it would be weird for the middle in the evolutionary chain of Archon-Maer-Syron to be gigantic).

 

[STARSDragoon]

BTW, on the subject of Eldritch Sovereigns, I always thought they were Lost Wizards who have somehow managed to regain their sanity (or at least, something resembling sanity).

That is one way. And was how triumph described them when eldritch realms was released. But its probably only the mainway. One of the few official eldritch sovereigns has a different Story already. And 4 tries to be very open for interpretation. So are champions for example kept vage about being about to become godir or being fully fledged godir already. Essentially, if you can come up with a good reason your ruler is X instead of Y. Its probably lorefriendly to see them as X

 

[Blanch Warren]

In elf terms, Meandor and Melenis aren't that much elder than Sundren.

That means very little. Meandor and Melenis go back to before AOW1. The amount of time between AOW1 and 2 is theoretically much longer than between any of the other games. Sundren isn't that much older than AOW 3, and we are only adding 40-50 years from the end of AOW3.

The pre-AoW1 timeline goes to 1216 LIR. Meandor was born 878 LIR, Julia was born in 969 LIR,
Meandor was already almost 340 years old at the start of AOW1, Julia 250.

AoW2 is supposed to take place "centuries" after the events of AoW1. It has shifts in demographics and even geography.
They might not be over a thousand years old, but they can easily be over five to six hundred.

 

[Goblin-Cookie]

altering the form and nature of their followers, is what all Godir do, Champion, Dragon, WK, its heart and centre of AoW4 gameplay so of it's worlds and nature too. And in AoW1 Dark Elves are explicitly not a separate 'race', they are elves who by living underground, turn green, and have different set of units because they're culturally different, and live underground because they're hunted, hiding and working in secret. They're not a race, characters have gone between. If Talic had quit the Cult and spent enough time above ground he'd have stopped being a dark elf.
I don't think the WK weren't Godir in previous games either, Yaka definitely was, Arachna, Arctica and Nimue too, though we saw none of them we saw their worshippers, Melenis, Julia and Meandor weren't, but were by AoW2, Ascension to Godir isn't new, it's the name for it and political structure of Magehaven that's new.

Either Gabriel is clear cut both Wizard king and Godir, or it's going to be revealed Archons are a whole separate power level and detachment from reality that they don't even fit in to such categories.

Champions cannot alter their followers to have a different form from themselves, but Wizard-Kings can (it is the main difference).

In Age of Wonders 1, yes the Dark Elves are supposed to be a faction within the Elves (but aren't depicted as such), but then we get to Age of Wonders II where they still exist despite the original conflict being old news.

They needed to carry out a powerful ritual, called the Mending in order to end the division between the Elves and Dark Elves and given that it was carried out in Arcalot rather than somewhere more accessible, suggests that it was a magic ritual rather than a purely symbolic thing.

Gabriel being a Godir is interesting, because that would imply that Gabriel was cast into the void when he 'died' in Age of Wonders II and may still be around. Actually I believe all the human-looking Wizard Kings (Karissa, Yaka, Nekron behind the mask, Tempest, Nimue,) are actually archons in biological terms, since they are canonically *not* human and in AoW II the Archons are the only race that looks human that isn't.

I suspect that Serena was actually the Keeper of the Elf Race on Athla before Age of Wonders III and that is why Julia seemingly gives up without a fight at the end of AoW II Life Mission 1. That is why Meandor deliberately split the Dark Elf off to create a new race in AoW IV terms, because otherwise Serena basically owns him (as she does Julia).

The reason that Wizard Kings are so very feared, is that having the ability to apply transformations to a race basically gives you the ability to kill them. Champions are *safer* because they cannot wipe their own race without killing themselves also, since they belong to that race. By contrast Wizard Kings can create new races they don't belong to and then use a transformation to kill off all members of that race in an instant without harming themselves, which is what I think happened to the Azracs and Lizardmen of AoW I.

 

[STARSDragoon]

Gabriel being a Godir is interesting, because that would imply that Gabriel was cast into the void when he 'died' in Age of Wonders II and may still be around.

He is still around. The outro of SM mentioned Merlin finding Gabriels spirit. Then Gabriel and oneron went to other worlds to fight shadow demons.

Question is only, what happened to him.



Azracs got defeated by humans and mingled with them, creating Nomads.

Lizards got literally drowned by nimue.