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Patrician
Jan 1, 2002
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I finally got around to adding Catalan, Portuguese, Spanish, Irish, Scots, Briton and Highland to the cultures in my game, but I don't know exactly where the Catalans should be. I've currently got them in Catalonia, Gerona and the Ballaerics (sp?). Am I missing any provinces? Also, who other than Catalonia (if anyone) should have Catalonian state culture? Should Spain? If so, should they lose it at some time (e.g. 1640s)?

Finally, does anyone know of any events for Spain which would need to be re-worked to accomodate the new cultures?

Thanx in advance.
 
I'm not entirely sure, geographically, but it *might* make sense for Valencia to be Catalan. Might want to consult someone from closer to that area than myself. (I'm still arguing for an event that allows the conversion of Alsace to French mid-game; I've written one triggered by the French decision in Chambers of Reunion - which goes off circa 1675.)

Aragon should definitely have Catalan culture, as it was (according to the in-game history summaries) a Catalan kingdom originally, which later became bigger and was (due to lack of heirs) turned over to a noble from further inland.
 
How about Aragon? I know it's a tough call, but hard to put them in Castillian. If 'culture' means 'administrative style' they should definitely be Catalan.
 
i think spain should get catalan culture as spain doesnt do as well as they did in history in the game. Adding catalan culture but not to spain would have the opposite effect.
 
That depends on what your conception of Catalana culture is, if catalan is defined narrowly it should only be present in Catalonia, Rosellón, Gerona and the Balearic islands which are the only regions where the catalan lenguage is spoken.
If you define Catalan in a wider way as a kind of mediterranean culture akin to the occitan one then it should include Valencia, Languedoc (in France) and Sardinia (which was part of the Catalan Kingdom since the XIII century). In no case should Aragón have Catalan culture, its language (now defunct) and traditions were very similar to the Castilian ones so it should have Castilian culture.
Of course you should give Spain catalan culture not only for gameplay reasons but because it would be historically accurate and not only that but Spain should also have italian culture, remember that Catalonia, Sicily and Sardinia were willing parts of the Kingdom.
Ciao!.
 
This a difficult issue. I'm in principle opposed to culture multiplication, you never will find a point to stop, and you will soon end up with a nightmare; for example, most people from Baleares and Valencia will strongly object to being called 'catalonians'. When is proper to add a culture? In my opinion, when the difference caused a _permanent_ effect that can be represented in the way EU does, i.e. lower income and increased problems.

Following this guide, I would be in favor of splitting 'iberian' at least into castilian (note 'castilian' against 'spanish' which in the XVI century would be applied to everything in the peninsula, following the roman style), portuguese and catalonian, catalonian covering the Balearic Islands and Roussillon, too; it would be better still to split catalonian in aragonese, valencian and catalonian, because the three were kingdoms, with their own parliaments and laws; the kings of Aragon and later the kings of Spain had to deal with each one separately. In fact the term 'king of Spain' is misleading; at least until 1700 the kings didn't use this title, but a long list of kingdoms, princedoms, duchies, counties and lordships; and in France, for example, the situation wasn't any different. Sometimes I think that the best solution to the HRE problem would be to make it a nation vassal of Austria and give to every state its own culture...

But the problems will be endless. For example, the similarities between catalonian and occitanian cultures already noted, and the catalonian influence in Sardinia... and the need of adding italian culture to Aragon/Spain (one of my biggest complaints about EU2 is the wave of rebellions in Sardinia and Sicily after 1517, which is quite laughable, when those kingdoms were just like they were before; meanwhile, Castile and Aragon could use a 3% or higher nationalism to reproduce the wars of the Comuneros in Castile and the Germanías in Valencia).

And it remains the problem of ending this separation; the parliament of Aragon was abolished by Philip II about 1590 after the Antonio Pérez affair, which would merit an event by itself, and the ones of Catalonia and Valencia in 1714 by Philip V. Navarre never lost it (not even in 1939-75) and the Basque Country or Lordship of Vizcaya to use the most frequent name employed in the 1500s was and is still divided into three mini-entities, Alava, Vizcaya and Guipuzcoa; Alava, like Navarre, never lost its 'privileges', while Vizcaya and Guipuzcoa kept them until 1939. And during the XVIII and XIX centuries, until the Industrial Revolution and the 'National Reawakening' of the later part of the 1800s nationalism doesn't seem to have been a problem, legends apart.

But I'm digressing. In short, know that you are beating a hornet's nest with an stick...
 
Alatriste,

The idea here is not to make as many cultures as possible (if so, we could just give each province on the map its own culture), but to make the map more balanced by eliminating discrepancies in levels of cultural delineation. For example, Paradox saw fit to give two similar cultures like Slovak and Czech representaion in the game (in 1500 the two were far more similar linguisticly--and arguably behaviourally--than, say, Neopolitan and Tuscan). Yet, Paradox did not give such massiveley different cultures as Higland and Lowland Scots separate representationin the game. I think that what everybody is after in requesting more cultures is redressing the culture balance, not just creating as many cultures as our little fingers can type up.

Also, keep in mind that state machinery does not equal culture. Simply having a separate parliament doesn't make you a "culture". Literature from the 1500s (including that of Luther) makes constant reference to the "German Nation" and most people in Germany identified as Germans (i.e. as being of one culture), yet there was never any German state in the EU period, never any serious desire for a pan-German state, and God knows how many parliaments. On the other hand, the Ottoman state had only one centralised administration but could clearly not be called a "culture".

So, in short, I can't agree that we'll face any problem as to "where do we stop?". All we need do is make sure that the map is roughly balanced, historically. That will require a few (10 to 15-ish?) more cultures being added, but I promise you that I have no desire to run all over the map introducing new cultures willy-nilly. ;)
 
That depends on what your conception of Catalana culture is, if catalan is defined narrowly it should only be present in Catalonia, Rosellón, Gerona and the Balearic islands which are the only regions where the catalan lenguage is spoken.

what the...mmmm, didnt u know that there r more catalan speakers in valencia than in the baleares? ;)

btw, i still dont understand why u want to have portuguese, castillian and catalan as separate cultures. I think the iberian culture was apropriate. :)

and yes, provençal (occità) is very similar to catalan, so similar i can understand 70-80% of it, but i dont think they should have catalan culture because then lenguadoc and savoy, for instance, should have it as well, but IMO rousillon should definetely have catalan culture.
 
Well you know that your own parliament thinks valencià is acomplete different language so that is debatable :)
 
I am confused is Catalan the same as Spanish? I don't know that is why I am asking.:confused:
 
Originally posted by Fate
Catalan is a mix of Spanish and French I suppose...

Cool hehe!:D
 
Much like Dutch is a mixture of French and German.
 
Originally posted by Gorion


You suppose wrong

hmmmm....what is it then?:confused: