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Why all these "of"s?

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unmerged(35978)

King of the People's Monarchy
Nov 9, 2004
232
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I wonder why it's always "of ......." for most of the dynasties, souch as "of Denmark", "of Paris", "of Skåne" and "of Bavaria".
I think it should be in the original language, and then it whould be "af (or av) Danmark", "de Paris", af (or av) Skåne and "von Bayern".

I noticed in the "dynasties.txt" in db, that there were some duplicates, like there were two "of Västergötland", when it probably should have been "af Västergötland" and "of Västergötland"

But this wasn't the important issue, it was all the "of" dynasties, is there any reason not to change them into their "native" languages, or should you instead make new ones (I have tried, and I thought it worked).


I know that in some cases it's a bit strange, like when Spain and Portugal is nearly totally owned by Muslims, and the Muslim rulers are named .... "de Granda", "de Faro" or "de Toledo" etc.

(And if someone is interested in this, then please help me to make correct names, especially if you speak Italian, Scottish, Irish, any Slavic language, Greek, Turkish, Arabic, Portugese, Hungarian, Finnish or Catalan.)
 
I would also very much like to see all these of's in native language. I intend to use them in my ICS.
I did a search for croatian and came up with 'iz', no idea if it's anywhere near reasonably correct though. :rolleyes:
 
Kaigon said:
I would also very much like to see all these of's in native language. I intend to use them in my ICS.
I did a search for croatian and came up with 'iz', no idea if it's anywhere near reasonably correct though. :rolleyes:
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AFAIK, slavic languages (those i am at least slightly familiar of) dont use "of"s at all. instead they have a suffix - like "-ski", "-ov/ev", but -ov and -ev sound more modern and i dont think they were used back then.
for example some names would be Kievski / Zagrebski / Plovdivski :)
 
King of Skåne said:
(And if someone is interested in this, then please help me to make correct names, especially if you speak Italian, Scottish, Irish, any Slavic language, Greek, Turkish, Arabic, Portugese, Hungarian, Finnish or Catalan.)
Click to expand...

You'd need a native Greek speaker for Greek because they still use declensions.

For example, Cantacuzino (rendered Kantakuzinos in CK out of the mistaken belief that the great Byzantine families used the Greek rather than the Latin version of their family name - this misuse is a personal bete noire, but I realize that I'm never going to win against the Hellenophiles) means from the mountain near Smyrna where the family had some of its oldest estates. Likewise, Moruzi (and I don't remember what a transliteration of the Greek original is) probably means from the village near Trezebon where they had their estates. (There's an alternate theory that it's actually an Italian name since there was a Venetian family with a very similar name just before the 4th crusade, and the Moruzi only appear in history after the 4th crusade. While I prefer this second theory, I think that the first one is more likely to be true.)
 
Solmyr said:
The reason they are all in the form "of X" is because they can be given to people of any culture. So, if some Arabs conquer Denmark, you will get "Hassan of Skåne", which sounds better than "Hasan av Skåne". ;)
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Arabs conquer Denmark? HA! Very unlikely... Grrr... :mad:
:D
But if the "of's" are bound to culture, why not culture of family!?
I mean, if Hasan conquer Skåne, which lies in a foreign culture, he would still be Hasan al-skånimut or whatever!
I like the idea with the different "of's"! It would give some more personality to the people...
 
Northern Viking said:
But if the "of's" are bound to culture, why not culture of family!?
I mean, if Hasan conquer Skåne, which lies in a foreign culture, he would still be Hasan al-skånimut or whatever!
I like the idea with the different "of's"! It would give some more personality to the people...
Click to expand...

That's just it, dynasty names are not bound to culture at all, only to a specific province. That's why you also get people like "Louis Ali" when some westerners conquer the Holy Land.
 
Solmyr said:
The reason they are all in the form "of X" is because they can be given to people of any culture. So, if some Arabs conquer Denmark, you will get "Hassan of Skåne", which sounds better than "Hasan av Skåne". ;)
Click to expand...

But how about all the rulers who're named "of", when there not English.
I think it's better for "Hassan" to have a local name, then to have an English name. You know, English hasn't allways been the "standard" language.

Du har kanske glömt det Solmyr.
Du har måske glemt det Solmyr. (Danish)
Du har måske glemt det Solmyr. (Norwegian)
 
While english might be a language unused until modern day in a region having "of Somewhere" dynasty, it's still in the language of the game itself. For example titles are in english and so on. It's a kind of default thing.
 
Kaigon said:
I would also very much like to see all these of's in native language. I intend to use them in my ICS.
I did a search for croatian and came up with 'iz', no idea if it's anywhere near reasonably correct though. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Croatian version would be better as 'od' rather than 'iz'.
But as stated Croats as most Slavic nation used used suffix.

So for Croatian priovinces would be better like this:
Varazdin - Varazdinski
Zagreb - Zagrebacki
Krizevac - Krizevacki
Senj - Senjski
Zachumlia - Zahumski
Usora - Usorski
Zadar - Zadarski
Split - Splitski
 
King of Skåne said:
Du har måske glemt det Solmyr. (Norwegian)
Click to expand...
That's not Norwegian! :p

Byakhiam said:
While english might be a language unused until modern day in a region having "of Somewhere" dynasty, it's still in the language of the game itself. For example titles are in english and so on. It's a kind of default thing.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Any attempt to change this into culture-specific translations is boundt to run into problems as you will have to translate all dynasty names into all possible languages (and both genders) to get it correct.

Not to mention the can of worms that is which language to use for some of the cultures :wacko:
 
von Loch Ness said:
AFAIK, slavic languages (those i am at least slightly familiar of) dont use "of"s at all. instead they have a suffix - like "-ski", "-ov/ev", but -ov and -ev sound more modern and i dont think they were used back then.
for example some names would be Kievski / Zagrebski / Plovdivski :)
Click to expand...
That is correct. Plus, they have a different suffix in a male and a female form, so it would be a pain to implement. Hence, the "of" sounds like a good compromise.
 
Finellach said:
Croatian version would be better as 'od' rather than 'iz'.
But as stated Croats as most Slavic nation used used suffix.

So for Croatian priovinces would be better like this:
Varazdin - Varazdinski
Zagreb - Zagrebacki
Krizevac - Krizevacki
Senj - Senjski
Zachumlia - Zahumski
Usora - Usorski
Zadar - Zadarski
Split - Splitski
Click to expand...
Only that for women you would have Zagrebacka, Zahumska, Usorska etc.
 
Martinus said:
That is correct. Plus, they have a different suffix in a male and a female form, so it would be a pain to implement. Hence, the "of" sounds like a good compromise.
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i think this argument alone proves it will impossible to implement.
are family names divided by sex? dont think so :confused:
 
von Loch Ness said:
i think this argument alone proves it will impossible to implement.
are family names divided by sex? dont think so :confused:
Click to expand...
Byzantine familiy names were, conf. male Paleologos vs. female Paleologhina, and they were not alone...
 
First, there is the standard "of <Province>" dynasties, just to ensure that all provinces actually have a dynasty in it, and many of the other names are due to the fact the researchers didn't speak all European languages and probably had better things than spelling to spend hours on (such as genealogy...). :)
 
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