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naq29

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Jun 25, 2009
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Building a barrack and get 100 swordmen as levy is much better than some stat buff (that the AI won't get if it does not station swordmen there).
Is there any obstacle for the devs to not return to it?
 
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Agree or disagree, it did seem easier for the AI to work with. It was simple enough. "I have gold, I should probably build something." And it ends up creating a halfway balanced army in the process. It did tend to build a lot slower than human players, but then again, so does CK3.

They struggled with retinue system, though.

The AI would buy just one at a time as soon as they could afford it/had enough cap to raise it, and some raider would come by and wipe it completely out, just wasting ~100 of the AI's gold. That could be fixed, somewhat, though, by having retinues start out at half strength when you first buy them, and then filling to full strength.

The good thing about it was that the retinues weren't really a factor until late game, and the player most of the time is just mopping up at that point and your biggest threats are equal-sized threats.

You didn't have enough retinue cap to afford them as a count until tech development reached near the last stages. You might be able to buy a couple. Dukes had a modest retinue. Kings maybe a few thousand, and emperors . . . well, the biggest one I ever had was 12,000 men and I never had to raise my own holding levies after that. I'd either use my vassal's and take the opinion hit or hire mercs. It got kind of broken, but again, that's late-game stuff.

I think they could have improved on it without throwing it out completely and trying something new that's turning out to be . . . kind of a disaster.
 
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I think they could have improved on it without throwing it out completely and trying something new that's turning out to be . . . kind of a disaster.
I'm of the opinion that retinues were a mistake in ck2. Levies and their source made sense. You build stables, you get cavalry, you build barracks, you get heavy infantry, etc. Retinues were just... spawned out of thin air, glorified mercenaries that function as a standing army several centuries before the first post-antiquity standing army was even possible in OTL. The AI couldn't handle it, the player gamed it. Worst of all, it threatened to undermine the levy system for which the core game mechanics were balanced around. I ended up avoiding the system altogether like a plague.

Men at arms in ck3 suffer from the same problems, except now we don't even have a proper levy system. You have to use men at arms, the whole battle system does not exist without them. Meanwhile levies are useless and thus so is every source that provides them.

What they should have done was throw out retinues altogether. You shouldn't be able to pick and choose your armies just like that. The only source of armies should've been buildings, just like in base ck2. Buildings represent the logistics behind the scenes. It takes time to breed proper warhorses, to train archers or to smith weapons... Just how nonsensical is it that in ck3 there is a blacksmith building which you don't actually have to build to provide weapons or armour for even the heaviest of troops? One should be necessitated to build the means for fielding an army to be able to actually field it. The 'economy' side of things should not feel detached from the army side of things — and no, providing space marine bonuses is not a proper subsitute.
 
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Building a barrack and get 100 swordmen as levy is much better than some stat buff (that the AI won't get if it does not station swordmen there).
Is there any obstacle for the devs to not return to it?

The obstacle would be that the CK2 levy system had its own myriad of stat buffs, from the technology system, to the realm-infrastructure development, and to the commander cultivation level, none of which the AI wouldn't keep up with the player over. It's not 'just' the building upgrade itself, but a host of related systems.

Many of which weren't exactly outstanding in their own right. There are multiple reasons that pure retinue flank strategies dominated the CK2 AI.

Rather than 'why don't the devs return to the CK2 system,' it would probably be easier to be list the specific elements from CK2 that should be kept. Except there's already experiments with different MAA-instead-of-levies via admin and the nomads... but the verdict is still out on how those balance against eachother, let alone how other systems should be balanced against them.
 
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I'm of the opinion that retinues were a mistake in ck2. Levies and their source made sense. You build stables, you get cavalry, you build barracks, you get heavy infantry, etc. Retinues were just... spawned out of thin air, glorified mercenaries that function as a standing army several centuries before the first post-antiquity standing army was even possible in OTL. The AI couldn't handle it, the player gamed it. Worst of all, it threatened to undermine the levy system for which the core game mechanics were balanced around. I ended up avoiding the system altogether like a plague.

Men at arms in ck3 suffer from the same problems, except now we don't even have a proper levy system. You have to use men at arms, the whole battle system does not exist without them. Meanwhile levies are useless and thus so is every source that provides them.

What they should have done was throw out retinues altogether. You shouldn't be able to pick and choose your armies just like that. The only source of armies should've been buildings, just like in base ck2. Buildings represent the logistics behind the scenes. It takes time to breed proper warhorses, to train archers or to smith weapons... Just how nonsensical is it that in ck3 there is a blacksmith building which you don't actually have to build to provide weapons or armour for even the heaviest of troops? One should be necessitated to build the means for fielding an army to be able to actually field it. The 'economy' side of things should not feel detached from the army side of things — and no, providing space marine bonuses is not a proper subsitute.
Having retainers you pay cash to is bastard feudalism or just a more centralised state without extensiveland granrs, its not a standing army
 
several centuries before the first post-antiquity standing army was even possible in OTL.
Would you be referring to this standing army?
Building a barrack and get 100 swordmen as levy is much better than some stat buff (that the AI won't get if it does not station swordmen there).
Is there any obstacle for the devs to not return to it?
Speaking from a CK2 perspective, there was this little system called "tactics", which unfortunately was impacted by army composition - something the AI does not account for when upgrading its millitary composition.

You know, come to think of it, neither did I. I simply got the highest military guy willing to come to my court to be my commander and rolled with whatever tactics he got me.
 
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I’d keep levies as they were in CK2 while retaining CK3’s MAA system. Then, I’d implement the following changes:


Levies:
  • Reduce the prosperity and control of their county when mobilized.
  • If mobilized in offensive wars, they increase discontent in their county too.
  • Vassals would only contribute levies to their liege's defensive wars; in offensive wars, they would only provide MAA.
  • Levies could be raised without opinion penalties in defensive wars.

MAA (Men-at-Arms):
  • Can be mobilized in any type of war without opinion penalties in their counties.
  • Do not reduce prosperity.
  • Can always be contributed to their liege when vassals are called to war, but this would generate a war duration-related penalty (with their liege).
 
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You mean mercenaries?
Not generally. Mercenaries were usually hired specifically for war.


Men-at-Arms were professional soldiers who were typically always mobilized with their liege—used for guard duties, small-scale wars, or whenever there was a need to chase down bandits, for example.
 
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it was terrible

the current building system need a lot more content to avoid optimization problem

that can be improved eventually in 3 to 5 business year

go back to every single fully build castle have exact same building would be idiotic
 
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Agreed, it was way better in every way.

I'd also add they should reintroduce the army gathering mechanic AND force them to spawn at their own vassal's capital counties, to avoid exploits (IE: Have a kingdom on the other side of the map having a single county next to the frontline to spawn all of it's armies over there).

The game was a chore early on but after a few QoL o changes gathering an army was mostly automated, the only difference is that the shape and size of your empire actually mattered as your armies could be intercepted before they could gather together, and this should return.

If we add the fact that armies can simply walk into the sea in CK3 even english levies shouldn't cause issues to the mainland.

Another change I'd make, since every single little levy had it's own banner, the sub commanders leading those banners should replace knights, that or make knights actually have their own retinues, instead of pretending through text, either using the CK2 custom mercenary company system or the new adventurer system, make them raise, train, upgrade and replace actual soldiers instead of acting like space marines that ignore atrition.

Hell I really wish they'd add back flanks too, and tactics, and the actual combat phases that matter to the battle mechanics.

I'm of the opinion that retinues were a mistake in ck2. Levies and their source made sense. You build stables, you get cavalry, you build barracks, you get heavy infantry, etc. Retinues were just... spawned out of thin air, glorified mercenaries that function as a standing army several centuries before the first post-antiquity standing army was even possible in OTL. The AI couldn't handle it, the player gamed it. Worst of all, it threatened to undermine the levy system for which the core game mechanics were balanced around. I ended up avoiding the system altogether like a plague.

Men at arms in ck3 suffer from the same problems, except now we don't even have a proper levy system. You have to use men at arms, the whole battle system does not exist without them. Meanwhile levies are useless and thus so is every source that provides them.

What they should have done was throw out retinues altogether. You shouldn't be able to pick and choose your armies just like that. The only source of armies should've been buildings, just like in base ck2. Buildings represent the logistics behind the scenes. It takes time to breed proper warhorses, to train archers or to smith weapons... Just how nonsensical is it that in ck3 there is a blacksmith building which you don't actually have to build to provide weapons or armour for even the heaviest of troops? One should be necessitated to build the means for fielding an army to be able to actually field it. The 'economy' side of things should not feel detached from the army side of things — and no, providing space marine bonuses is not a proper subsitute.
I agree, the idea of retinues/MAA was decent on paper but they trivialized a lot of content even back in CK2, levies made sense and your power came from your land, your vassals, and how much they respected you.

After retinues were added players could survive the entire empire revolting against them by just moving around and wiping their levy stacks before they could gather in significant numbers, it didn't quite break the balance in CK2 like MAA did in CK3, but it certainly made things worse.
Then theyd have to admit the change was a mistake

And then they'd have to admit another change was probably a mistake too.... And another... And another....
Very little of what we used to have was changed for the better tbh, I can only think of culture and maybe nomads, I'm not convinced on clans, diseases and anything related to warfare were very clear mistakes and I don't think the modular nature of CK3 religions made the game better, everything feels generic and of little relevance compared to the strict, game-changing religious differences of CK2.
 
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I think development should put a cap on levy size and buildings should then be responsible for “creating” those levies to be available instead of them automatically existing.
 
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I think development should put a cap on levy size and buildings should then be responsible for “creating” those levies to be available instead of them automatically existing.

A county would have a base number of levies determined by factors like prosperity, control, etc. For example: 1,000 levies.

These levies would, by default, be rabble — peasants armed with improvised weapons. But if you build a barracks that provides equipment for 100 swordsmen, then 100 of those 1,000 levies would become swordsmen, leaving you with 100 swordsmen and 900 rabble.

If you then build an archery range too that equips 150 archers, you'd have 100 swordsmen, 150 archers, and 750 rabble.

Levies could function this way
 
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Building a barrack and get 100 swordmen as levy is much better than some stat buff (that the AI won't get if it does not station swordmen there).
Is there any obstacle for the devs to not return to it?
Because the devs would have to make a fundamental and massive overhaul and we all know they don't do that, best you can get is minor tweaks that put a lipstick on a pig.
 
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Because the devs would have to make a fundamental and massive overhaul and we all know they don't do that, best you can get is minor tweaks that put a lipstick on a pig.
No doomposting on the day of the announcement of the EU5 announcement.

We are (/have never been so) back, haven't you heard?
 
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