If you actually read what I said, you'd see that my harsh comment wasn't about the beta test or its numbers — it was about NewBee’s take that science should be slowed down even more
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You're not arguing with SolSys there, you're arguing with Eladrin. That's an exact quote from the dev diary.
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Even in the unlikrly event, if there end up as many pop groups as pops before calculations still only would need to be done monthly instead of daily. That still would be a big performance improvement.
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"On default settings, i.e super easy mode it's too easy. So we should mess the game up for everyone else too!"
Gotta love how people who barely play the game, never tried 90% of it, never played on bigger maps, higher difficulties, or have any competency in the game are the ones talking down to others. Goes well with a lead dev who said the team doesn't play beyond early mid game.
Also it's nice to see that the mask dropped. That the "efficiency" and "lag reduction" have fallen by the way side in favor of massive and sweeping balance changes across the board. And virtually all of them for the worse.
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This brings us back around to the same problem Stellaris has always had with research - you can't 'rush' anything. You just have to cross your fingers and hope that the 1 research card you want comes up when there might be 20ish in the deck. Hopefully these sort of gamechangers are now guaranteed from the focus system?
I just wanted to chime in on the performance thing and on commenting on the design change and how I see it. Sorry for the tangent. I don't think research numbers are being touched but each type split up more explicitly so you can literally focus more on a particular area?
In the simplest terms, you are going from having an instance of an object for every pop (thousands) which isn't a huge amount on its own but convoluted with how many checks, triggers, there are probably hundreds of if()'s within the pop growth/addition areas. And they enact on day 30, day 1 or just whenever a trigger defines it too. And you're meant to do that on a infinite loop. And I think because the addition of larger galaxies wasn't in the games release, it likely wasn't seen as a flaw and a nice function of the game to represent each pop quite literally.
What they've opted for is simply having as many pop objects as there are distinct versions of them (now groups of the same pop) and calculate those groups. They'll have simplified their code some and rather than creating a new object every time a Pacifist is murdered or birthed, they will be adding / removing from their existing group a 1 or 100. It won't be exactly like that but you get the jist.
Does a Thegian Pacifist with Fanatic Spiritualist exist in the galaxy? No? Create a new object group and give it 100 or 1. Yes? Add +100 or +1 to the existing group.
Much better than just creating more pop objects and having to check every single one. I still want my pops represented individual though and for that reason I'd add lots of properties to what is a pop group so that its possible to have very granular pops of the same species.
The fractional part will come into representing each empire with a slice of those numbers from the whole of the galaxy. And then using those numbers to create the groups.
On the face of it, HFY is right, it might be possible to get as many pop groups as individual pops but the sheer calculation requirements will be much less onerous. And it'll be mainly because of shifting calculations to on groups than every single pop. This is bringing in simplification whilst bringing on board Estates and Houses or whatever it's called in EU4(Johan!) as well as leaving room for an explicit Spiritualist axis of religions which I really hope will happen. Also don't forget, this empowers the team to reign in on what constitutes a pop group too.
I'm pretty hopeful we'll see some good change for my Huge galaxies on my 10100 CPU. Whether you see this game reaching its golden years, its facing its biggest critics head on. I just hope we don't compromise on gameplay and how pops feel prior to 4.0.
In the simplest terms, you are going from having an instance of an object for every pop (thousands) which isn't a huge amount on its own but convoluted with how many checks, triggers, there are probably hundreds of if()'s within the pop growth/addition areas. And they enact on day 30, day 1 or just whenever a trigger defines it too. And you're meant to do that on a infinite loop. And I think because the addition of larger galaxies wasn't in the games release, it likely wasn't seen as a flaw and a nice function of the game to represent each pop quite literally.
What they've opted for is simply having as many pop objects as there are distinct versions of them (now groups of the same pop) and calculate those groups. They'll have simplified their code some and rather than creating a new object every time a Pacifist is murdered or birthed, they will be adding / removing from their existing group a 1 or 100. It won't be exactly like that but you get the jist.
Does a Thegian Pacifist with Fanatic Spiritualist exist in the galaxy? No? Create a new object group and give it 100 or 1. Yes? Add +100 or +1 to the existing group.
Much better than just creating more pop objects and having to check every single one. I still want my pops represented individual though and for that reason I'd add lots of properties to what is a pop group so that its possible to have very granular pops of the same species.
The fractional part will come into representing each empire with a slice of those numbers from the whole of the galaxy. And then using those numbers to create the groups.
On the face of it, HFY is right, it might be possible to get as many pop groups as individual pops but the sheer calculation requirements will be much less onerous. And it'll be mainly because of shifting calculations to on groups than every single pop. This is bringing in simplification whilst bringing on board Estates and Houses or whatever it's called in EU4(Johan!) as well as leaving room for an explicit Spiritualist axis of religions which I really hope will happen. Also don't forget, this empowers the team to reign in on what constitutes a pop group too.
I'm pretty hopeful we'll see some good change for my Huge galaxies on my 10100 CPU. Whether you see this game reaching its golden years, its facing its biggest critics head on. I just hope we don't compromise on gameplay and how pops feel prior to 4.0.
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They did both. They split research types for the reason you said, but in the old system a single scientist gave 3P+3S+3E. In the current beta 100 scientists (so one old scientist) just gives 4 of a single type. So 100 of each type, or (basically) three scientists, gives 4P+4S+4E compared to the 9P+9S+9E that three generic old scientists would have gotten you. A "pure" split would have given each scientist 9 of its speciality and given you ~33 scientists of each type per job.
It's more complicated than that because there's a bunch of science booster buildings and such that aren't in 3.14 and if you get a +20% engineering planet deposit you can put more engineers on it to get more use out of it and a bunch of other changes, but even taking that all into account there's definitely a big drop in the beta. It sounds like they've boosted things a bit since then but I'd be very surprised to see a completely unmodified researcher go higher than 6, and I suspect it will be something like 5 per researcher but you get 120 workforce slots (or 1.2 old jobs) per unmodified district.
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How does the new Workforce way work when a job has more than one output? I already noticed that charismatic trait says it improves the entertainer job specifically, but entertainer also generates unity. Does it also increase unity? Also, traditional trait pop increases unity. If it's contributing to an entertainer job, is it also increasing amenities?They talked about it here
Stellaris Dev Diary #370 - 4.0 Changes Part 4
Hello everyone! This week we’re going to look at the upcoming changes to Pops in the Stellaris 4.0 ‘Phoenix’ update. Last week I said we might also look at the Planet UI, but I’m going to save that until next week since there’s quite a bit to...forum.paradoxplaza.com
Example: Then vs. Now
Before (3.14):
- Take a planet with 100 Pops working Metallurgist Jobs, where 20 of them have a +10% Production Bonus from a Species Trait.
- These 100 Pops produce 612 Alloys per month.
- Every Pop is individually checked - 80 produce the standard amount, while 20 get a 10% Alloy production bonus from their species trait.
Now (4.0):
- Instead of tracking individual Pops, we track Workforce filling Jobs.
- The Jobs are now filled by 10,000 Workforce (since Pops are scaled up by 100).
- 8,000 Workforce comes from regular Pops, while 2,000 Workforce comes from the bonus-earning Pops.
- The species bonus is now “10% bonus Workforce when working Alloy jobs” - those Pops contribute an extra 200 Workforce, making the total 10,200 Workforce. Bonus Workforce is allowed to go over the required Workforce for a job, yielding extra production.
- If 100 Workforce still produces 6 Alloys, the planet still produces 612 Alloys - same output, different system.
Why This Matters:
The key benefit is efficiency. Instead of iterating through and calculating production for every individual Pop, the game now only checks once per planet. This makes the system more scalable and improves performance, while still allowing for species based bonuses and modifiers.