Why is the map scope of China hegemony unreasonable?

[luo]

The following viewpoint is outdated, please refer directly to my latest viewpoint on p6.
Here is my initial viewpoint:








original text

The current map of China hegemony is more like a correspondence to the political situation in 867, but the legal territory should not be so closely related to the politics at the beginning of the game.

For a long time since the AD era, Rome and China were considered the two major hegemons of the East and the West. However, the legal territory of Roman hegemony was the map of the Roman Empire's peak, while the legal territory of China hegemony was only within the scope of the Tang Dynasty after its decline in 867, which is unreasonable.

The current situation is as strange as the legal territory after the reconstruction of Roman hegemony is limited to the territory of the Eastern Roman Empire in 867.

This was not controlled at the beginning, and it cannot be said that it was not included in the legal theory. Especially, even in the Song Dynasty, which was the most militarily weak, there were attempts to attack the western regions, and the Longyou Protectorate 陇右都护府 was established in 1104 (extending from Xining in Qinghai to the southeast corner of Tarim Basin)

Considering that the legal territories of the other three hegemonic titles are usually compared to their heyday, the legal territorial scope of Chinese hegemony should also be treated in the same way. For example, the whole Tarim Basin (the so-called Western Regions), which was inevitably controlled by several Chinese dynasties in the past, and the Liaoning area within the Great Wall (I have always wondered why here was excluded from the scope of China when there was Han people as the major ethinic group for a long time even untill Ming Dynasty, especially the Great Wall of the Qin and Han dynasties was still on the border of Liaoning region).

Map of the Eastern Han Dynasty, imo the legal territory of China hegemony should be

Map of the Tang Dynasty in its peak (period of Emperor Gaozong Lizhi 李治, son of Emperor Taizong Lishimin 李世民)

The protrusion in the northwest of the map is the direction of the Song Dynasty's attack, and the Longyou Protectorate was established in 1104

The light orange area is the Longyou Protectorate, the red arrow represents the military's marching route

Just like in many Western European countries where the legal territory is not fully mastered at the beginning of the game, this situation actually gives players the motivation to play, that is, to conquer all the legal territory of the current country.

For the player of Chinese dynasties, reclaiming lost territories and back to the peak period is an important source of immersion, especially when establishing various protectorates in the surrounding areas like the dynasties in history (I think this may be achieved through resolutions, such as honorary titles like Guiyi Kingdom, but at the imperial level)

 

[AchedTeacher]

I do not think de jure land is made with any sort of goal-oriented gameplay designs in mind. It is largely a factor of creating semi-reasonable tracts of land that could correspond to a larger group of cultures that could for one reason or another form an empire, while not interfering with neighboring empires that should logically "deserve" it more (the Empire of Russia could contain the Baltic States, but that instead is its own empire).

 

[CrazyRat]

I think the answer to that is not precisely ‘politics at the start date’, but the Dynastic Cycle feature. The Hegemony is splintered during the Chaotic Era, but given a strong push to reconstitute. If it contained the Tarim Basin, then most probably it would lead to the Tarim Basin staying within the Hegemony until the end of the game.

 

[luo]

Legal territory should be calculated based on the peak period territory, otherwise why should Rome calculate based on the Mediterranean, Britain, and even Mesopotamia, India calculate based on the entire South Asian Peninsula and Myanmar, and China calculate based on the remaining territory of the declining period?
For Chinese people, the Han Dynasty is generally considered as the first golden age of China in the imperial period, and the Tang Dynasty is considered as the second golden age. It is very reasonable to take the territory of the Han Dynasty and the peak period of the Tang Dynasty as the legal territory (of course, the territory of the Tang Dynasty was too large, so I chose the Han Dynasty)

 

[luo]

I think the answer to that is not precisely ‘politics at the start date’, but the Dynastic Cycle feature. The Hegemony is splintered during the Chaotic Era, but given a strong push to reconstitute. If it contained the Tarim Basin, then most probably it would lead to the Tarim Basin staying within the Hegemony until the end of the game.

Qara Khitay (or Western Liao Dynasty, 1124 - 1218) was a regime established by the royal family Yel ü Dashi in the Tarim Basin after the downfall of the Liao Dynasty by the Jin Dynasty. It was quite Sinicized, using Chinese and Khitan as the court languages.

In a sense, it is true that even until the latest game start time, Tarim was still strongly influenced by China and ruled by rulers from China.

 

[luo]

I do not think de jure land is made with any sort of goal-oriented gameplay designs in mind. It is largely a factor of creating semi-reasonable tracts of land that could correspond to a larger group of cultures that could for one reason or another form an empire, while not interfering with neighboring empires that should logically "deserve" it more (the Empire of Russia could contain the Baltic States, but that instead is its own empire).

The discussion here is about hegemony, which itself spans across multiple cultural regions and empires, and the empire itself is not within the scope of discussion. Can it be said that the cultural gap between France and Egypt is significant, so Roman hegemony cannot include both of them?

 

[luo]

If we further discuss the division of empires under China hegemony, the number and division of empires are very strange, and here is a modification from the Chinese community that takes into account both the size of the area and regional culture. The names of these empires all come from regional cultures and ancient country names, and have been used by dynasties. The size and population of each empire are similar to those of France, which I believe is a relatively better division.

 

[Carcossa Castile]

I believe that de jure land should be defined by the territorial claims of the hegemons themselves, since it is the closest equivalent to “de jure” in real life.

We all know that the notion of "de jure" territory in ck3 is a gameplay abstraction designed to simulate feudal and imperial claims over land. It seems that the ingame de jure territories are either based on:

1. Traditional Borders Defined by Higher Authorities – Such as the Papacy or the Holy Roman Emperor, arbitrating disputes between lords.

2. Bilateral Treaties & Cultural Traditions – In regions without a single dominant power, borders were often negotiated through custom, or only vaguely defined by cultural areas, rather than strict legal doctrine.

It seems most logical that a hegemonic power, by definition one that holds the supreme temporal and religious authority over a region, naturally assumes the right to define what is "de jure" within its sphere of influence. The idea of “de jure” land of China was largely shaped by memories of the Han and Tang Dynasties, providing de jure basis for both the Celestial Empire and peripheral powers. The Guiyi Circuit, as an example, legitimized its rule through claiming the title of “The Golden Mountain Kingdom of the Western Han”, recalling Han rule over the northwest regions.


Of course, the definition of “de jure China” was still highly subjected to change due to pragmatic reasons. For example, "宋揮玉斧" (Sòng huī yù fǔ) refers to a legendary incident during the Song Dynasty, in which Emperor Taizu of Song allegedly used a jade-handled axe to draw a boundary line on a map, declaring that territories beyond the Dadu River, i.e. the land of Dali (modern Yunnan), were not part of China's domain. This was considered as a strategic choice to allocate more military resources against the northern power of Liao, while maintaining a friendly but loose tributary relationship with Dali.

To represent these kind of strategic choices,
I propose that the hegemon should have the ability to dynamically adjust its de jure territory through diplomatic and administrative decisions, reflecting historical realities where empires expanded, contracted, or voluntarily relinquished claims based on strategic needs. Lands which were once part of de jure China, no matter how long ago, can be restored to the de jure title with a discounted cost.

 

[Rubidium]

Roman hegemony de jure territory doesn't matter as much, as the Roman Empire doesn't exist at game start, and will likely only be formed by a player (who can do whatever they want, especially by the point they've already formed Rome).

China, on the other hand, does exist as a powerful, unified state at game start, and if you give them the de jure territory CB on all that territory, they will use it, even as an AI.

China is already likely going to blob ahistorically, but there's no reason to make it even more so. Sometimes you need to make compromises for gameplay (see: basically everything about the religion system in-game).

 

[lare290]

To represent these kind of strategic choices,
I propose that the hegemon should have the ability to dynamically adjust its de jure territory through diplomatic and administrative decisions, reflecting historical realities where empires expanded, contracted, or voluntarily relinquished claims based on strategic needs. Lands which were once part of de jure China, no matter how long ago, can be restored to the de jure title with a discounted cost.

Oh yeah, maybe a "weak de jure" concept would be neat. The largest historical extent _ever_ is the weak de jure; not a strong enough claim to act on, but de jure drifting would be faster and cheaper in those areas. And unlike the current de jure map, they could overlap.

 

[Song of Falcon and Owl]

It's a very good opinion. The legal principle of China's hegemony is indeed too narrow. For a long time, the Eastern Roman Empire still referred to China as Taugas, which was not unrelated to the glory of the Tang Dynasty. The Islamic world also believes that the Taugas world, from Central Asia to the Chinese mainland, is divided into several distinct parts. There are also some bureaucratic or military families of the Chinese in Central Asia, who still hold power there... Well, even the Karakhanate followed the past contract with the Tang Dynasty. After coming to China, it paid homage to the emperor of the Song Dynasty and addressed him as "Uncle".
Obviously, in all respects, the Chinese hegemony forged by the Tang Dynasty still has a profound influence in all directions.

 

[BaliorPal]

even Mesopotamia

Mesopotamia must be removed from the Roman Empire's claims

 

[Kvesir]

The de-jure lands of China's hegemony seem to be its "core lands" - the lands that are expected of any self-respecting Chinese dynasty to own.
That does not negate the fact the Tang expanded outside their de-jure lands, in fact, that expansion is represented in the dynastic cycle system.

The fact other lands were at times owned by or strongly culturally influenced by the hegemony is precisely due to the definition of a hegemony: a regional superpower that exerts cultural and political influence on the entire region.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

I think it is highly likely that you will be able to expand your de jure over certain territories with decisions. I could totally see the ability to add places like ths Tarim Basin, Vietnam if it's lost, and other border or far flung territories. It just doesn't start that way because it's not core.

 

[Kvesir]

I think it is highly likely that you will be able to expand your de jure over certain territories with decisions. I could totally see the ability to add places like ths Tarim Basin, Vietnam if it's lost, and other border or far flung territories. It just doesn't start that way because it's not core.

Or it could just work with de-jure drift.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Or it could just work with de-jure drift.

I think a decision will make it feel more legitimate and approved. Something like "Reassert authority over the Western Regions" as a decision much like "Restore the Theodosian Borders". If you militarily dominate those regions you can take a decision to add it to the Hegemony and it'll be much faster than waiting for drift, and will have an event associated with it.

 

[Rubidium]

I'd also note that, from a balance perspective, if they expect China to fragment regularly and need to be reformed, a larger de jure will make it harder to reform China (as you need X% of the de jure territory to form the title). Which is much more problematic (neither Ming nor Song ever came close to the Tang boundaries, which would mean that, per CK rules, they'd never be able to reform the hegemony).

 

[luo]

I think a decision will make it feel more legitimate and approved. Something like "Reassert authority over the Western Regions" as a decision much like "Restore the Theodosian Borders". If you militarily dominate those regions you can take a decision to add it to the Hegemony and it'll be much faster than waiting for drift, and will have an event associated with it.

I agree with your point of view, which helps to reflect more flavor content, especially since Chinese dynasties had varying degrees of expansion in different directions, and the expansion directions were not the same in different dynasties. Such a resolution can reflect this difference.

The Tang Dynasty established protectorates in the Western Regions, Gobi Desert, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Manchuria, and Korea at different times, with a total of possibly more than ten, which could all be made into flavor resolutions.

For example, when the Chinese dynasty occupied a sufficient amount of corresponding regional land, a resolution was passed to establish an imperial level honorary title (i.e. protectorates) under the China hegemonic title, which was directly integrated into the China hegemony and destroyed the previous imperial title. These special imperial level titles could use a mechanism similar to that of a governor. The use of imperial level titles by various regional protectorates is due to their administrative level, which is basically the same as or even higher than the highest level administrative division within the Chinese dynasty.

 

[James yz]

You can also go to the QQ channel to provide feedback to the community ambassador at the same time

 

[luo]

I'd also note that, from a balance perspective, if they expect China to fragment regularly and need to be reformed, a larger de jure will make it harder to reform China (as you need X% of the de jure territory to form the title). Which is much more problematic (neither Ming nor Song ever came close to the Tang boundaries, which would mean that, per CK rules, they'd never be able to reform the hegemony).

Of course, the territory of the Song Dynasty exceeded 2/3 of the territory I proposed, especially considering the number of earls in the Tarim Basin (the central Tarim Basin is filled with desert, but there is no earl in the desert), this proportion may reach 3/4.