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@olm - yes, I agree. Pre-war air doctrine in Germany and Italy was focused on tactical (Germany) and strategic (Italy) bombing. Neither nation permitted their navies to have organic air assets (as the US< Japan and to a degree the UK did). Neither air force gave their navies any meaningful co-operation: better to lose a battle than let the navy help win it.

Just my opinion, but letting the German and Italian navies have their own (shore-based) aircraft along the lines of Japanese naval squadrons would have been very valuable - much more valuable in practical terms, I believe, than Aquila or Graf Zeppelin.
 
By the way, what’s the story behind the other Graf Zeppelin-class carrier, Flugzeugträger B. I heard, it was scrapped already in 1940, why?
 
By the way, what’s the story behind the other Graf Zeppelin-class carrier, Flugzeugträger B. I heard, it was scrapped already in 1940, why?
Both carriers construction been halted in 1940 for the ability to funnel more resources into submarine construction. Later in the war the navy wanted carriers and construction on Graf Zeppelin continued. What most peopel dont know is that at the same point the 4th Hipper class cruiser started a carrier conversion but also got halted shortly after.

The B (Peter Strasser) got scrapped after the first construction halt in 1940 and some of its already finished stuff like elevators and catapults got sold to Italy for their carrier construction (Aquila)
 
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German naval construction was heavily affected by steel production, labor shortages and wartime priorities. Pre-war, the navy could get allocations of materials and labor for the construction of big ships, but once war actually broke out the Luftwaffe and army got almost all. Losses of light cruisers and destroyers in the Norway campaign meant that even if the carriers were completed (and even the Navy could pry aircraft out of the Luftwaffe) there would be almost no escorts for them.

Graf Zeppelin was far-enough along that they hoped to finish her in 1944. Peter Strasser was nowhere near as complete and was probably scrapped for materials and to recover the yard space.
 
One thing that occurs to me in terms of evaluating the use and purpose of the Graf Zeppelin is that even if completed before the outbreak of war and in a position to be another menace to the Royal Navy in 1940-1941, I'm not sure the Germans would have possessed the institutional capabilities to have used the Graf Zeppelin effectively.

The Germans had good planes and good pilots, but carrier operations have their own unique elements that have to be dealt with and an entire doctrine of how to employ both carriers and their aircraft in an effective manner. The Royal Navy and the US Navy each had roughly twenty years to practice with operating large aircraft carriers along with the fleet and to sort out how they might be used effectively. Even then, the early carrier operations of both navies had their fair share of problems, the Royal Navy perhaps suffering from this in more spectacular instances. Given the learning curve even nations which had operated carriers for decades had once actually at war, I'm skeptical that the Germans would have been able to make much headway.
 
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One thing that occurs to me in terms of evaluating the use and purpose of the Graf Zeppelin is that even if completed before the outbreak of war and in a position to be another menace to the Royal Navy in 1940-1941, I'm not sure the Germans would have possessed the institutional capabilities to have used the Graf Zeppelin effectively.

The Germans had good planes and good pilots, but carrier operations have their own unique elements that have to be dealt with and an entire doctrine of how to employ both carriers and their aircraft in an effective manner. The Royal Navy and the US Navy each had roughly twenty years to practice with operating large aircraft carriers along with the fleet and to sort out how they might be used effectively. Even then, the early carrier operations of both navies had their fair share of problems, the Royal Navy perhaps suffering from this in more spectacular instances. Given the learning curve even nations which had operated carriers for decades had once actually at war, I'm skeptical that the Germans would have been able to make much headway.
Very likely indeed yes but it might been enough to fight of some biplanes. But carrier operations been a complicated business.
 
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This might be a topic to be fully explored in another thread but perhaps if we keep responses short and carrier-related then a short detour will be fun.

If we agree that building carriers was a mis-use of resources for Germans as they did it, then given the constraints of the various treaties and knowledge that war would come earlier than 1945, what should the German Navy have done? I freely give permission for the use of hindsight where you like.



The armored cruisers should have been completed. I'd go so far as to say that the Scharnhorsts should have been finished as cruisers, not bulked-up into small fast battleships. Alternatively, if completed as built they should have been refitted with twin 15" turrets before war broke out and the triple 11" turrets used on more armored cruisers. That gives, say, six of them even if the Scharnhorsts are built as 15"-armed fast battleships.

All of the light cruisers should be scrapped (too weak) along with the uncompleted 8" cruisers (too fat). Designs based on British light and heavy cruisers should be produced, which means getting a professional design bureau not dominated by 'Oooh this is cool! Add this, too!' If construction cannot be completed by wartime then... so be it; German cruisers didn't contribute much to the war anyway.

But the next changes I would make would all be organizational and political. The German Navy should have its own naval air arm, in line with the navies of Japan, Great Britain and the United States. Even without carriers, a land-based naval air arm, trained in attacking ships, would have been of great value in Baltic and North Sea operations. Later they could have helped contest Allied air cover over the Bay of Biscay, the Western Approaches, Malta and the Arctic convoys.

Second, I would not focus on building a lot of submarines. That would attract the attention of the Royal Navy, who would promptly respond to the threat by building escorts. Rather, pre-war I would focus on producing a submarine model that was large enough to keep at sea for an extended cruise and build enough to validate the concept. Meanwhile, I would build up the infrastructure and develop procedures so that, in wartime, production could be modular and fast.

Third, the Navy must be imbued with a zeal for combat against anything approaching reasonable odds, even if damage should be taken. Graf Spee fighting full-out against Harwood's cruisers at the River Plate becomes a German triumph like the Coronels, even if the cruiser has to be lost later (as Von Spees ships were). "It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition," Admiral Cunningham said. The way to get that tradition is to fight.

Fourth, and most controversial... the German Navy was more conventional in its thinking than the army (stosstruppen doctrine with motorized transport, planes and tanks) and the air force. Since the German Navy would be tiny in comparison to that of Britain or even France, why not go full-in on radical concepts? Study the other navy that intended to fight and win against long odds: the Japanese. Develop aggressive destroyer tactics and - dare I say? - build a couple of small carriers immediately in 1933, convert Bismarck and Tirpitz to carriers (or build them as such) and build a modified version of the Graf Zeppelins. The way to develop carrier operations is, well, to operate... If you have no chance of winning a conventional naval war, then go for broke.

Yes, Britain will respond to a German Kido Butai by massing its own carriers. They are, however, hampered by the RAF-induced sad state of the Fleet Air Arm, and by their commitments elsewhere. Germany will also have a good land-based naval air arm to draw on. The Norway campaign would have radically different results for the two navies, I think, and control of the North Sea and British fears of invasion would last until the German carriers were sunk, say by 1944.

Four German carriers, escorted by armored cruisers and/or re-armed Scharnhorsts and a few decent light cruisers... if that gets out into the Atlantic, there'll be havoc. Even if it doesn't, it would be a formidable fleet-in-being to control the Baltic, contest the North Sea and threaten the Arctic.
 
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Ooh, time to revisit our debate over the Jeune Ecole.

Because that's essentially what they should have gone for, whole hog, a 1930s version of the Jeune Ecole doctrine.

Much like 19th century France, Nazi Germany can't hope to build up a fleet capable of challenging the Royal Navy, especially not given that they also need to support an army capable of defeating France/UK on land (and eventually the USSR, as Hitler's dreams of lebensraum are not going away). The experience of Imperial Germany demonstrated that pretty conclusively: the German High Seas Fleet did little of value for the entire war.

The basic principle of the Jeune Ecole was that if you can't build enough battleships to challenge your competitor in a straight-up fight, then your battleships are useless, so you shouldn't even try to compete on that dimension. Rather than throw your money away in a hopeless effort to target the enemy at their strongest point (the battle line of the Royal Navy), you should target their weakest point. For the Jeune Ecole, this meant commerce raiding and torpedo boats, eventually including submarines.

The logical extension for the 20th century, when torpedo boats are decisively obsolete, is submarines for commerce warfare and land-based aviation for operations near your coast. You're still not going to be able to challenge the Royal Navy in a traditional battle, but you don't need to. Train your aviators to target ships (we agree on that; the inability of the Luftwaffe to do anything about Dunkirk contrasts strongly with the effectiveness of aircraft on both sides against troop convoys in the Pacific), and go for submarines for commerce raiding. Basically don't bother with a surface fleet at all; you can keep the old, obsolete Deutschlands if you need shore bombardment, and more effective land-based anti-shipping aviation will do adequately for most other purposes.

Yes, the British will respond to your naval build-up with more escorts. So what? They'll still need a battle fleet (Italy's fleet is still there, and a clear and immediate danger, and Japan is also a concern in the Pacific that the British have to keep an eye on). And your submarine fleet will be cheaper than their escort build-up (since they have to escort every convoy and individual ship, whereas your submarines won't). And that savings on steel/etc. can go to the army/aviation, which is going to be more useful.

Will it win the war? Probably not; the balance of power is far too tilted against the Axis. But it will be more useful than what they actually did.
 
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If we agree that building carriers was a mis-use of resources for Germans as they did it, then given the constraints of the various treaties and knowledge that war would come earlier than 1945, what should the German Navy have done?

Elektroboote, elektroboote and only elektroboote:cool:
 
Will it win the war? Probably not; the balance of power is far too tilted against the Axis. But it will be more useful than what they actually did.

My understanding of the Jeune Ecole is a bit different. I don't believe it was strictly a commerce-raiding strategy, but rather an application of new technologies for asymmetrical warfare. (I hate that term; all warfare is asymmetrical in some way, but that's the term we have).

Can't afford to build as many battleships as Britain? When they come in for blockade, sortie squadrons of torpedo boats and submarines. Find something cheap that can deny them the use of their expensive fleet. The aim is not to wrest control of the sea from them - you cannot do that - but rather to force them to expend money, ships, crews and materiel to keep command of the sea. In short, to wage a kind of guerilla warfare.

The French attempted this and it had a brief shelf life. Being the French, and changing governments often, they wandered between building battleships, building cruisers for commerce raiding, and building torpedo boats and submarines. As is usual when you can't make up your mind, none of it was done very well.

Britain was able to defend against Jeune Ecole-type tactics by spending money on new technologies. Menaced by torpedo boats? Build the torpedo boat destroyer and put quick-firing 4"-6" guns on your battleships. Menaced by submarines? Build escorts and adopt convoys. Menaced by commerce-raiding cruisers? Build trade-protection cruisers and some battle-cruisers for the really sticky parts.

By the time of Tsushima in 1904, the Jeune Ecole was already over and done for, and the poor performance of French designs in the Russian fleet turned France back to building capital ships. Destroyers escorted battleships armed with layers of quick-firing guns, ships moved at high speed to avoid submarines and mine-sweepers kept sea-lanes clear of mines. Control of the sea could be very expensive, but it could be attained and kept.


Commerce-raiding, as a war-fighting tactic, has never won a war. Even when the French went at it full-tilt in the Napoleonic wars, Britain was able to keep losses (insurance rates) to a manageable level. Raiding with surface ships is fraught with peril: you need to refuel (resupply) frequently, you need ports to send in captured ships and crews, and if you are engaged by even a very inferior warship you may take damage that imperils your mission if not your survival.

Raiding by submarines was much more effective. In WW1, it was nearly decisive, thanks to British mistakes (refusals to form convoys and to release destroyers for escorts). When the US entered the war, enough destroyers were available and - as a last, desperate measure - convoys were formed. Sinkings immediately declined - sharply - and Britain stayed in the war. In WW2, submarines were highly effective for a short time and quickly had to be withdrawn from the convoy routes because of high losses.

Taking up a purely commerce-raiding strategy is a confession that you cannot compete on the seas. In Mahanian terms, it is not control of the sea but an attempt to deny the use of the sea to the enemy. To my knowledge, there is only one case where it has succeeded: against Japan in WW2.

Escorts and sub-hunters can be cheaply produced and improvised from existing vessels (leftover WW1 DDs, fishing vessels), and they don't have to go hunting submarines: organized around a convoy, the submarines will either come to them or be deterred from attacking. To win, a submarine must attack and torpedo its target. To win, an escort needs only to harass the sub and prevent it from scoring.

American successes with submarine warfare in the Pacific in WW2 were in a large part due to Japan's lack of emphasis on anti-submarine warfare and generally weak industrial base. Bad American torpedoes also made them somewhat complacent; fixing those problems led to an explosion of sinkings in 1943-44, at the same time that the Japanese destroyer arm was exhausted and depleted. Merchant losses simply could not be replaced, major warships were sunk and Japan's economy collapsed.
 
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@Jopa79 - Germany was prohibited from submarine construction before 1933 and after that were permitted a percentage of British tonnage. You aren't going to be able to build many subs before war breaks out, nor equip them with snorkels (a Dutch invention). In addition, the elektroboote had a lot of teething and production issues. If you try to iron those out before going to full-scale production, you may start the war with no U-boats at all.

Not saying it's a bad idea, just pointing out the hurdles.
 
@Jopa79 - Germany was prohibited from submarine construction before 1933 and after that were permitted a percentage of British tonnage. You aren't going to be able to build many subs before war breaks out, nor equip them with snorkels (a Dutch invention). In addition, the elektroboote had a lot of teething and production issues. If you try to iron those out before going to full-scale production, you may start the war with no U-boats at all.

Not saying it's a bad idea, just pointing out the hurdles.

Germany went around this article of Versailles' Peace Treaty, for example, using the Dutch dummy company, IvS. The funding for the company came straight from the Kriegsmarine. Several German dockyards owned all the stocks of IvS.

IvS was founded already in 1922 and new types of German submarines were designed and built there from since. This cover-up company was created by the Germans as they sought to maintain the German know-how in U-Boat construction. I'm not very proud of the matter, but IVS offered the Finnish shipyard company, Crichton-Vulcan, the opportunity to participate in this development program that the shipyard responded positively. Thus, in Finland, German future U-Boat Flotilla prototypes were built well before 1933.

Very largely due to the design and development work at IvS, Kriegsmarine had a ready prototype VII boat (being the most common U-Boat type during the war) and was able to quickly build a powerful U-Boat flotilla by the time of the outbreak of the war.

Also, during the mid-late 1930’s, the Germans had an ongoing, advanced development project considering propulsion system for the U-Boats. Later on, this resulted rocket-powererd engines in Me 163 Komet, but the first efforts, advocating hydrogen peroxide as engine fuel, were spent on U-Boat propulsion system.

This project was well ahead of its time. Still, it only experienced very limited development. U-Boat prototype, using hydrogen peroxide as its fuel, was running already in 1940. However, for some reason, the Germans nearly abandoned and ignored the development further, until 1942, when the limits and disadvantages of the current U-Boat types became clear and when the first signs of Kriegsmarine leaving behind in the Battle of the Atlantic appeared.

When the development was reopened, it resulted the Elektroboot, or the Type XXI U-Boat in January 1943. The production commencing in 1944-1945, but actual combat, never.

Everyone is certainly to some extent aware of how superior Elektroboot would have been in military action compared to previous types. The US post-war tests proved, XXI could outrun the Allied war-time ASW ships in high seas. The first US nuclear-powered submarines used a modified XXI hull.

Considering that Germany was able to invest tremendously in the above-mentioned IsV company, it would had been also possible, to invest more to the new propulsion system and Elektroboot. The project was active during pre-war, but was halted. If the Germans would have funded the advanced U-Boat technology more, or wouldn’t have halted the program, the Type XXI could have been in production in any of these years - 1939-1942.
 
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My understanding of the Jeune Ecole is a bit different. I don't believe it was strictly a commerce-raiding strategy, but rather an application of new technologies for asymmetrical warfare. (I hate that term; all warfare is asymmetrical in some way, but that's the term we have).
Commerce raiding wasn't the only aspect, but it was a key part of the Jeune Ecole idea, which was, as you said, an asymmetrical approach. It's a major reason why their writers were also (ironically) strong advocates of ignoring traditional cruiser rules governing commerce raiding, and in favor of unrestricted attacks on commerce (because torpedo boats are even less suited to cruiser rules than submarines are). As one of the early proponents, Admiral Grivel, put it, better to target the 1000 ships of the British merchant marine instead of the 1000 guns of the British battle fleet.

They also believed that torpedo boats and submarines would be sufficiently threatening to the enemy battle line to prevent the battle line from being of great use against France, but commerce raiding was a central part of the vision of how the Jeune Ecole intended to turn their torpedo boat fleets into a war-winning weapon against the UK.

I'm basically basing my understanding of the Jeune Ecole on Roksund's book The Jeune Ecole: the strategy of the weak. Here's a freely available article in the US Naval War College Review that nicely summarizes the history of the Jeune Ecole and why it ended up not working out.
Can't afford to build as many battleships as Britain? When they come in for blockade, sortie squadrons of torpedo boats and submarines. Find something cheap that can deny them the use of their expensive fleet. The aim is not to wrest control of the sea from them - you cannot do that - but rather to force them to expend money, ships, crews and materiel to keep command of the sea. In short, to wage a kind of guerilla warfare.
Indeed, and a key aspect of their vision of that denial was targeting commerce in particular, as a key part of the offensive wing of that guerrilla strategy.

It was coupled with a grossly exaggerated vision of the power of torpedo boats in particular as a potential counter against battleships, but 1930s-40s submarines and aviation were both vastly more effect against battleships (as HMS Barham, HMS Prince of Wales, the Kongo and the Yamato could all attest).
The French attempted this and it had a brief shelf life. Being the French, and changing governments often, they wandered between building battleships, building cruisers for commerce raiding, and building torpedo boats and submarines. As is usual when you can't make up your mind, none of it was done very well.

Britain was able to defend against Jeune Ecole-type tactics by spending money on new technologies. Menaced by torpedo boats? Build the torpedo boat destroyer and put quick-firing 4"-6" guns on your battleships. Menaced by submarines? Build escorts and adopt convoys. Menaced by commerce-raiding cruisers? Build trade-protection cruisers and some battle-cruisers for the really sticky parts.

By the time of Tsushima in 1904, the Jeune Ecole was already over and done for, and the poor performance of French designs in the Russian fleet turned France back to building capital ships. Destroyers escorted battleships armed with layers of quick-firing guns, ships moved at high speed to avoid submarines and mine-sweepers kept sea-lanes clear of mines. Control of the sea could be very expensive, but it could be attained and kept.
The torpedo boat was basically a dead end (although one could argue that the destroyer eventually ended up fulfilling the same role as envisioned for torpedo boats, with quite a bit of success), and the fleet designed for an assymetric war against the UK was effectively useless in the eventual war against the Central Powers, where the German High Seas Fleet was hopelessly outnumbered by the Royal Navy alone, and thus left nothing for a Jeune Ecole-inspired fleet to do even if the French had kept with it.

But while many of their proposed solutions turned out to be wrong, the basic principles actually in many ways were born out by the events of the First World War. As the Jeune Ecole predicted, the massive German battlefleet was effectively useless, as it was still smaller than the Royal Navy, and thus was essentially confined to port and out of action for essentially the entire war. It provided no benefit to Germany, despite the vast expense in building it. Meanwhile, the German submarine fleet and commerce raiding did have a major effect, seriously threatening the British war effort. Despite the major investment in convoys and escorts, the U-boat threat was never completely contained during WWI (whereas the Allies did much better during WWII).

And we see a similar dynamic in WWII, where the German surface fleet is largely useless (and to the extent it does get deployed, it ends up being in commerce-raiding roles anyway, because directly confronting the British fleet is obviously suicidal), whereas the submarines do have an impact (albeit much less than in WWI, due to the improvements in technology and code-breaking). And of course, if we extend to the Pacific, conventional surface ships proved extremely vulnerable to both submarine and air attack, to the point that battleships were increasingly relegated to escort roles.
Commerce-raiding, as a war-fighting tactic, has never won a war. Even when the French went at it full-tilt in the Napoleonic wars, Britain was able to keep losses (insurance rates) to a manageable level. Raiding with surface ships is fraught with peril: you need to refuel (resupply) frequently, you need ports to send in captured ships and crews, and if you are engaged by even a very inferior warship you may take damage that imperils your mission if not your survival.

Raiding by submarines was much more effective. In WW1, it was nearly decisive, thanks to British mistakes (refusals to form convoys and to release destroyers for escorts). When the US entered the war, enough destroyers were available and - as a last, desperate measure - convoys were formed. Sinkings immediately declined - sharply - and Britain stayed in the war. In WW2, submarines were highly effective for a short time and quickly had to be withdrawn from the convoy routes because of high losses.

Taking up a purely commerce-raiding strategy is a confession that you cannot compete on the seas. In Mahanian terms, it is not control of the sea but an attempt to deny the use of the sea to the enemy. To my knowledge, there is only one case where it has succeeded: against Japan in WW2.
But 1930s-40s Germany can't compete on the seas, no matter what strategy they adopt. The British have both better ships and more of them to start, and the expertise to build more, faster, than the Germans can. Especially as Germany is facing land-based enemies on both fronts, which means the army is going to need the bulk of their investment.

In short, their strategic situation mirrors that of post-1870s France facing a hostile UK and Germany/Italy: precisely the situation in which the Jeune Ecole arose. But unlike the Jeune Ecole's fixation with torpedo boats, we know (from the experience of World War II, especially in the Pacific, as you allowed hindsight in this hypothetical) that submarines and aircraft can prove a serious threat to capital ships.

Germany still isn't going to be able to compete on the seas to the extent of fielding a significant battlefleet, with battleships or carriers, to the extent of being able to compete with the Royal Navy. But it can invest heavily in land-based anti-ship aviation (both planes and training) to deny the British access to the seas around its coasts (including the English Channel after the Fall of France) and it can (once the Versailles restrictions have been abandoned) build up its submarine force for commerce raiding.
Escorts and sub-hunters can be cheaply produced and improvised from existing vessels (leftover WW1 DDs, fishing vessels), and they don't have to go hunting submarines: organized around a convoy, the submarines will either come to them or be deterred from attacking. To win, a submarine must attack and torpedo its target. To win, an escort needs only to harass the sub and prevent it from scoring.

American successes with submarine warfare in the Pacific in WW2 were in a large part due to Japan's lack of emphasis on anti-submarine warfare and generally weak industrial base. Bad American torpedoes also made them somewhat complacent; fixing those problems led to an explosion of sinkings in 1943-44, at the same time that the Japanese destroyer arm was exhausted and depleted. Merchant losses simply could not be replaced, major warships were sunk and Japan's economy collapsed.
The flipside is that the defender needs escorts for every ship/convoy that could reasonably be attacked, whereas the submarine can choose its targets. The American experience in the Pacific, despite the Japanese incompetence that allowed it, shows that it can theoretically be done, and a submarine campaign doesn't have to be nearly as crippling as that in order to have a significant marginal effect on the battlefield.

But ultimately, it comes down to the fact that the Kriegsmarine was never going to be able to challenge the RN in WWII (much less the USN when they joined), so trying to do so is a fool's errand. The best that Germany can hope for from its navy is to limit the effects of Allied naval power on the course of the war, and the best way to do that is to adopt a Jeune Ecole-style assymetric approach. Ships that are tied up on convoy duty in the Atlantic aren't doing more valuable things elsewhere, and if your aircraft can deny Allied sea access to coastal waters, that makes something like Dunkirk or (worse) Normandy much more difficult to pull off. Meanwhile, any battleships/carriers that Germany builds will end up rusting away in port somewhere, with no real effect on the war.
 
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the first efforts, advocating hydrogen peroxide as engine fuel, were spent on U-Boat propulsion system.

Here we have to disagree. Post-war, Britain invested a lot of time and effort into hydrogen peroxide as an alternative to nuclear propulsion, using two German submarines. They got a lot of technical issues, breakdowns and dead crewmen for their trouble and shelved the program. My opinion is that the first time a Walther submarine got depth-charged the sub would have been lost with all hands - peroxide dissolves human flesh.

The Walther turbine was an example of the old saying: the difference between theory and practice is that, in theory they are the same, but in practice they aren't. It's the same reason nobody uses the very best rocket fuel, fluorine.

Give the Germans points for being willing to look at unconventional ideas... they could have used more of them.

Everyone is certainly to some extent aware of how superior Elektroboot would have been in military action compared to previous types. The US post-war tests proved, XXI could outrun the Allied war-time ASW ships in high seas. The first US nuclear-powered submarines used a modified XXI hull.

Yes. But, the mass production of the craft proved... infeasible... as the various modules didn't fit together. Since we are permitting hindsight, I'd agree that Germany could have worked that out pre-war (as the US did) using perhaps a less-advanced and complicated sub as a test product.

Britain wasn't worried about U-boat warfare in 1939 because they had radio direction-finding and ASDIC. Both proved useful but not the panacea some pre-war naval officers believed them to be. Britain hadn't built a lot of escorts because ASDIC was supposedly a wonder-weapon...

The argument against the elektroboote as a war-winning weapon has two parts. One, I do think Britain would have gone full-out on faster escorts like the US destroyer escorts, ignoring the Flower class and other slow stopgaps. Second... a lot of Allied anti-sub methods were developed from existing systems and didn't need long development times. Long-range anti-submarine aircraft, escort carriers, Hedgehog, Leigh lights are four.

I'll agree that starting the war with fifty elektrobootes instead of fifty coastal and small subs would have given Germany a sizeable edge in the Battle of the Atlantic, but I don't think that it would have been enough for a victory.

The torpedo boat was basically a dead end (although one could argue that the destroyer eventually ended up fulfilling the same role as envisioned for torpedo boats, with quite a bit of success),
The torpedo boat was the cheap version. The 'destroyer' had to be bigger and more expensive because it had to defend the battleships from the torpedo boats. Credit Fisher (developer of the Dreadnought and battlecruiser) for the idea. Again, a naval power uses its skill and money to counter a cheaper, asymmetrical attack.

the massive German battlefleet was effectively useless, as it was still smaller than the Royal Navy, and thus was essentially confined to port and out of action for essentially the entire war.
Yes... but. The German High Seas Fleet could have caused a lot more trouble had it not been restrained by a monarch who didn't want to lose any ships (see also, Louis XIV, XV, Napoleon). The German admirals did come up with some good plans for defeating the British in detail, which could have worked had they not had really bad signals discipline, and which very nearly did cost Britain a sizeable chunk of her fastest ships at Jutland (due in part to Beatty's bad judgement, but that is a part of war).

The German battlefleet kept Britain from using her destroyers to protect ships from U-boats, cost Britain heavily in money, steel and manpower. Had I been Kaiser, I wouldn't have built the High Seas Fleet, but it wasn't without use and could have been more useful than it was.

But I do take your point. The French, Germans and Soviets all found challenging the pre-eminent naval power to be a costly and eventually a losing game. British and American naval power were (and are) founded on necessity. French, German and Soviet fleets were all luxury projects, grown at the leader's will and abandoned if his attention faltered. I suspect China may eventually come to the same conclusion.

The difference between the maritime and continental powers seems to be, to me, the understanding that navies are to be risked and used - if necessary, used up - in pursuit of gains. The near-disasters and outright catastrophes of von Spee, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and Bismarck tell me the Germans really didn't understand the extent of the risks they were taking.

But 1930s-40s Germany can't compete on the seas, no matter what strategy they adopt. The British have both better ships and more of them to start, and the expertise to build more, faster, than the Germans can.
And Britain has the imperative to develop new systems and technologies. We absolutely agree.

Navies are expensive, long-term projects which are also terribly fragile and difficult to replace.

Raeder and Donitz had good ideas for how to prosecute a naval war, given what they could foresee. No-one understood how the rapid development of aircraft capabilities from 1936 to 1942, or the enormous numbers that could be produced, would affect operations. And nobody thought radar could develop so quickly.

The flipside is that the defender needs escorts for every ship/convoy that could reasonably be attacked, whereas the submarine can choose its targets.

A submarine's slow speeds submerged and on the surface meant they had to attack when they could or let the convoy go by. Even a small dog-leg could put the convoy out of reach - if they know where the subs are.

The defender needs relatively few escorts for each convoy, and can sometimes hand over the convoy in mid-Atlantic. Donitz didn't know Ultra had been broken... but his entire strategy rested on the British not using radio direction-finding to find his subs, on central control of wolfpacks from shore, on the Allies not having aircraft overhead. When the enemy adapted, Germany didn't - they had not thought ahead, planned for what the enemy could do.


I agree with you that Germany didn't have a path to naval victory in WW2. I disagree that a Jeune Ecole asymmetrical approach would work - you need technological breakthroughs that you can exploit faster than your bigger, conventional enemy for that. The Allies mobilized scientific talent to analyze ASW and make it more effective - the Axis did not put the same effort into improving submarines.
 
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Here we have to disagree. Post-war, Britain invested a lot of time and effort into hydrogen peroxide as an alternative to nuclear propulsion, using two German submarines. They got a lot of technical issues, breakdowns and dead crewmen for their trouble and shelved the program. My opinion is that the first time a Walther submarine got depth-charged the sub would have been lost with all hands - peroxide dissolves human flesh.

I’m not quite sure, what are we disagreeing here? German engineer, Hellmuth Walter, had been advocating hydrogen peroxide (perhydrol). Walter patented his idea in 1925.

I do agree with Britain investing post-war this same propulsion system.

Britain wasn't worried about U-boat warfare in 1939 because they had radio direction-finding and ASDIC. Both proved useful but not the panacea some pre-war naval officers believed them to be. Britain hadn't built a lot of escorts because ASDIC was supposedly a wonder-weapon...

Winston Churchill’s note, post-war: ’…the only thing that ever really frightened me during the war was the U-boat peril.’
;)


I'll agree that starting the war with fifty elektrobootes instead of fifty coastal and small subs would have given Germany a sizeable edge in the Battle of the Atlantic, but I don't think that it would have been enough for a victory.

I would remember, the question in the first place was to find alternatives, how to replace the mis-used-carrier-building-resources. Concentrating the development on the ’Elektroboot’, in my opinion, is an alternative. I wasn’t talking abot a war-winning-weapon:)
 
@Jopa79 -

My point about the Walther peroxide propulsion system was that it could not be made to work under the kind of stresses a warship can undergo. I don't believe any amount of development or engineering would have made it safe enough to use.

I'd argue that Britain was imperiled more by U-boats in WW1 than in WW2, but that's a product of British errors and stubbornness in WW1. In WW2, submarine warfare certainly gave Britain a fright but realistically the Battle of the Atlantic was won - decisively - before the war was half over.

You are exactly correct. The purpose is to find alternatives, and I apologize if I've sounded nit-picky. I'm enjoying the conversation a lot, and hope you are too.
 
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I'd argue that Britain was imperiled more by U-boats in WW1 than in WW2, but that's a product of British errors and stubbornness in WW1. In WW2, submarine warfare certainly gave Britain a fright but realistically the Battle of the Atlantic was won - decisively - before the war was half over.

I'll share your view, Britain being imperiled more in WWI than in WWII, but I think, your second statement is more complicated. There is more than the following, but I'll take it as a good example.

Second Happy Time, officially Operation Paukenschlag ("Operation Drumbeat"). Also, the "American Shooting Season". It was a phase in the Battle of Atlantic in which the Axis submarines attacked the Allied merchant shipping and other vessels at the Eastern Coast of the US, but I would also count in the naval warfare, submarine warfare at the Caribbean and at the Gulf of Mexico.

Second Happy Time lasted a little over half a year, from January 1942 to August 1942. During this period, in this area, the U-Boats sank over 600 Allied ships, or some 3.1 million tons, losing only 22 submarines. Second Happy Times proved, the US Navy was ill-prepared against such an attack and it couldn't respond quickly enough. The lost tonnage stands for 25% of the total tonnage sank, by the U-Boats, during 1939-1945.

Without a serious reorganization, the Allies were were unable to fight back here. For the Allies, the lost tonnage, the increasing loss trend was worrying. Of course, its merchant fleet could withstand even this such a huge loss, but if the U-Boats had been able to continue for another, say, another six months in parallel, the losses might have grown intolerable for the Allies, at least they would have had to spend even more resources on ASW.

It has been said that World War II started on September 1, 1939 and ended on September 2, 1945, so it lasted 6 years and one day, a total of 2191 days, half of which is 1095.5 days. Three years is exactly 1095 days, and the middle of WWII, the war being half over, would be exactly 1.-2. September, 1942. These are dates when the 2nd Happy Times came to an end and the Battle of Atlantic began turning for the Allies favor, but I wouldn't say, they had won in the Atlantic decisively, yet.

According to another method of calculation, the middle of the war can be counted from when the United States joined the war. Calculated in that way, your statement is more truthful.

In the third method of calculation, the duration of the Battle of the Atlantic, September 3, 1939- May 8, 1945, can be taken into account. The final result of this calculation method is close to the first calculation method, which took into account the entire duration of WWII. I would say that even with this method of calculation, the Allies had not yet decisively won the Battle of the Atlantic, while approaching the mid-point of the war.
 
I was counting from the 1939 start.

And I agree with you that the US was complacent and unprepared for U-boat activity off its own coasts - we should have been ready, but were too focused on building capital ships and cruisers to fight Japan. The Caribbean sinkings were especially painful as they had a high percentage of tankers coming from Texas, Louisiana and Venezuela. The US Navy was particularly hard-hit by a tanker shortage, as fuel oil shortages severely limited fleet operations into 1943. For one example, the refitted 21-knot battleships were kept out of action because fuel couldn't be moved from the West Coast to Pearl to the frontlines.

My sources give the climax of the Battle of the Atlantic as March through May of 1943, Merchant sinkings soared because the Germans had broken British Royal Navy codes, then U-boat sinkings soared as the Allies got their ASW efforts in gear. For 58 Allied ships lost in May of 1943, the Germans lost 43 U-boats in one month, a quarter of their entire force (!).

Given that the US would produce 2700 Liberty ships in WW2, an average of 3 ships every 2 days, Germany had clearly lost the Battle of the Atlantic by May of 1943. That's a little later than half-way through the war, but I was spit-balling it and didn't look up the dates.


At some point, we're going to have to get back to carriers. ;)
 
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