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FOARP

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Sep 10, 2008
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I, and a lot of other Paradox forumites, have long looked forward to the day we might be able to play a game made using Paradox's trademark real-time map-based game play centred on World War One.

Why? Well, The first world war was an world-shattering event that wrecked four of the largest empires known to history and battered every country in Europe, the countries involved in it were engaged in a deadly struggle that saw significant action on three of the world's continents and all of its oceans. It involved complex diplomatic conspiracies, espionage, political intrigue, uprisings, revolutions, and civil wars. The countries involved in it fought not only to out-maneuver each other on the battlefield, but also in terms of industrial production and diplomatic influence.

Despite the obvious attractiveness of such subject-matter, Paradox has understandably been wary of making a game centered around a war the most important front of which did not significantly move for 2-3 years. However, releases such as Matrix's "Commander - The Great War" and AGEOD's (unfortunately deeply flawed, at least in its initial release) "World War One", as well as DH and Vicky 2 (which both touched on the war even if they are not designed to make the most of it) show that there is a market for it. For DH in particular many forumites were explicit that the only reason they were getting it was because it included a WW1 scenario, and the inability of Vicky 2 to adequately portray wars like WW1 is one of its very few drawbacks.

Doubts have also been raised as to the degree of fun to be found in such a game. Some say that the conflict was mostly static and therefore would be boring for the player, others point out that it would likely be easy for the Central Powers to score an early victory and thus end the game, whilst others point out that only Europe saw major action and therefore it would lack the world-bestriding scope of games like HOI3.

A look at history shows, however, that the first world war was one of maneuver throughout the war on the eastern and middle-eastern fronts, and saw large scale maneuvering in the west in 1914 and 1918, so we should not exaggerate the static nature of the war. More to the point, as games of HOI3 show (e.g., fighting in the west in the allies manage to survive the initial Axis onslaught), battles of attrition can actually be nail-biting affairs requiring high-skill-play. Holiding out on the Somme as the Germans, or in Verdun as the French, would not be a simple act of keeping your units in place, but instead a juggling act of feeding fresh troops into the defence whilst keeping campaigns elsewhere supplied with sufficient troops to achieve their objectives. Run out of troops, and you face disaster.

A successful Schlieffen plan was no more likely to result in an end to the war than Germany's successful campaign against France in 1940 was historically. This is because the German demands in 1914 were just as unacceptable to the allies in 1914 as they were in 1940. Britain would still have held out (at least, for game play purposes, we can assume this just as we do in HOI3), requiring an invasion of that country, and the US would still have intervened sooner or later so long as Britain carried on the fight.

Just as importantly, the game can be designed so as to make the most of this conflict. For example the player can be allowed to build long-range guns, set fire-missions for them (e.g., supply interdiction, support, counter-battery, fortification-destruction etc.), and then faced with the challenge (as it was historically) to keep them supplied with shells. Give the player detailed control over mobilisation of the population both into the army and into the war industries - putting more men in uniform should come at a cost to production. If you think that Europe and its immediate surroundings were the only important theatre of war (which I would dispute), then create a Europe-only map, but take advantage of the processing power and developer time saved by omitting the rest of the world to add detail to remaining part.

Obviously Paradox don't need me telling them their business, but I hope a WW1 game is somewhere in their plans for at least the above reasons.
 
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just make it 1900-1933 so you can start with building up army and leading small wars like wars vs China and stuff if you feel like it, build up industry and stuff. game should have some good aspects for peace times as well and it would be amazing.

You should not be forced to Play ww1 like it was, but able to for example make russia an allie or sth. Change the history. Or as Germany: behave different, so there will not even be a war.
Still it should make a lot of fun even in peace, like in vic2.
 
I like WW I. In fact, i have read almost as much about WW I than about WW II, but I dont see HoI 3 set in WW I. The fact that the most important front was almost frozen for a good part of the war would make for a boring game after a few runs. And, if it is not frozen in most of your games, then people will say it´s ahistorical (so that means not funny for many people).

On top of that there was few fighting out of Europe.

And, contrary to what you think, I think in WW I a victorious over France and Russia Germany would have provoked the Brithish Empire to try to get the best possible peace, IMHO, and the USA wouldnt have given a damn about it all as long as the USA was left alone. Wilson (and other WW I US politicians) was very, very different from Roosevelt regarding intervention in Europe. In fact, Wilson won elections thanks to the slogan: "The man who kept us out of the war" or something like that.
 
just make it 1900-1933 so you can start with building up army and leading small wars like wars vs China and stuff if you feel like it, build up industry and stuff. game should have some good aspects for peace times as well and it would be amazing.

You should not be forced to Play ww1 like it was, but able to for example make russia an allie or sth. Change the history. Or as Germany: behave different, so there will not even be a war.
Still it should make a lot of fun even in peace, like in vic2.

But what´s fun about a wargame if there is no war?. One thing is a HOI 3 kind of game, and another one is a Victoria 2 one. I assume the OP is talking about the first option.
 
I like WW I. In fact, i have read almost as much about WW I than about WW II, but I dont see HoI 3 set in WW I. The fact that the most important front was almost frozen for a good part of the war would make for a boring game after a few runs. And, if it is not frozen in most of your games, then people will say it´s ahistorical (so that means not funny for many people).

On top of that there was few fighting out of Europe.

And, contrary to what you think, I think in WW I a victorious over France and Russia Germany would have provoked the Brithish Empire to try to get the best possible peace, IMHO, and the USA wouldnt have given a damn about it all as long as the USA was left alone. Wilson (and other WW I US politicians) was very, very different from Roosevelt regarding intervention in Europe. In fact, Wilson won elections thanks to the slogan: "The man who kept us out of the war" or something like that.

I discussed these points in the OP. In short:

  1. The war wasn't 'frozen', there was significant activity on all fronts throughout the war. Whilst the western front was fairly static from 1915-1917, battles were continually fought there during this period, requiring the juggling of units and resources in exactly the same way that a stalemate on the western front in HOI3 does.
  2. There was fighting outside Europe - but there's nothing wrong with making the map Europe-only.
  3. In 1940 Germany beat France and co-opted Russia, but Britain didn't quit. For at least the purposes of gameplay we can say the same thing would likely have happened had the Germans defeated the French and Russians in 1914-15.
  4. Historically the USA entered the war primarily because of the U-Boat campaign, a French defeat would still have required a German campaign against the UK which almost certainly would have involved U-Boats. American involvement in the war even if the Germans beat the French is therefore extremely likely

Hearts of Iron 4 should cover 1914 to 1946.

I don't know what Paradox's plans are, but I assume that they don't include radically altering the nature of their flag-ship product. Anyway, WW1 and WW2 were very different conflicts requiring very different mechanisms and game design to emphasise the parts of each conflict that will be of greatest interest to the player.
 
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[*]The war wasn't 'frozen', there was significant activity on all fronts throughout the war. Whilst the western front was fairly static from 1915-1917, battles were continually fought there during this period, requiring the juggling of units and resources in exactly the same way that a stalemate on the western front in HOI3 does.
[*]There was fighting outside Europe - but there's nothing wrong with making the map Europe-only.
[*]In 1940 Germany beat France and co-opted Russia, but Britain didn't quit. For at least the purposes of gameplay we can say the same thing would likely have happened had the Germans defeated the French and Russians in 1914-15.
[*]Historically the USA entered the war primarily because of the U-Boat campaign, a French defeat would still have required a German campaign against the UK which almost certainly would have involved U-Boats. American involvement in the war even if the Germans beat the French is therefore extremely likely
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1. Yes, the East front was not frozen (at least not as much as the West one was) but, compared with WW II standards, it was rather static. Using HoI 3 as a base for a WW I game, it would be boring after a few runs. Just how much take in and out units you stand before getting as frustrated as generals were in WW I?. From a gameplay perspective, I think a historical WW I would be boring. But perhaps you have several ideas about how it might be done in an interesting way.

2. Reducing the conflict to Europe, North Africa and Asia Minor (and the East part of the Atlantic) only would probably be the best way of focusing programming resources in what really mattered, but I fear that, compared to HoI 3, the wargame would feel a far less "epic" and worldwide struggle in the eyes of many potentail buyers.

3. In 1940 Germany had defeated France and the UK kept on the war, but I think Chruchill was very different from any other brithish politician, Hitler was also very different from any other previous politician (and I think people knew it) and during 1940 there were still two cards: the USSR and the USA. In a 1915 scenario were both France and Russia are defeated (and, differently to WW II, the USA politicians and people wanted nothing to do with a war in Europe) the UK best option would be to seek the best possible peace instead of keeping on with an already lost war. Germany could just sit in the continent and partially revert to peacetime life. It would be a pointless war for both, the UK and Germany, neither of them being able to defeat the adversary.

4. The U Boat campaign policy was very erratic, and the USA declaration of war was preceded by a total miscalculation of the german diplomacy (I am referring to "the mexican proposal") based on pure desperation. The U Boat campaing policy was also based on desperation. However, a 1915 victorious Germany would have no reasons at all to be desperated.

Concluding: if fronts are not frozen or static then the game doesnt look historical OR war ends in a few months. We can´t hope to see a WW II kind of war (if you want to keep the game historical). But if fronts are frozen or rather static, then we get a boring (for many potential buyers) wargame.

I am sure many strategy developers have thought about making a WW I strategy game, but they have discarded it because of the above reasons (and because there are better options: WW II)
 
What a pity :(.

I disagree entirely with those who say that it would be boring. I was never bored when I was playing as France and defending against the German onslaught in HOI2 or HOI3 - in fact, I usually quit when I achieved a breakthrough, as the game became easy and predictable then :). Diplomacy, technological advancements, multi-front warfare, mutinies, Germany with a big navy from the start - a WWI game could be very cool. Also, the game doesn't have to always start in 1914 - it can have several scenarios, one of them starting in 1912 during the Balkan War, for example.

The point concerning the decisive Central Power victory early on is moot. In HOI3, most Axis games end in 1941/1942, heh. Also, there are many ways of making stalemate in the West the most common outcome in a WWI-focused game and if winning decisively was very very hard, then achieving that type of victory would be kind of cool, right?

WWI is one of the most under-represented period of history in gaming, just as Cold War. Those periods present unique challenges for the devs, but that doesn't mean that good WWI/CW games cannot be made.
 
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What a pity :(.

I disagree entirely with those who say that it would be boring. I was never bored when I was playing as France and defending against the German onslaught in HOI2 or HOI3 - in fact, I usually quit when I achieved a breakthrough, as the game became easy and predictable then :). Diplomacy, technological advancements, multi-front warfare, mutinies, Germany with a big navy from the start - a WWI game could be very cool. Also, the game doesn't have to always start in 1914 - it can have several scenarios, one of them starting in 1912 during the Balkan War, for example.

The point concerning the decisive Central Power victory early on is moot. In HOI3, most Axis games end in 1941/1942, heh. Also, there are many ways of making stalemate in the West the most common outcome in a WWI-focused game and if winning decisively was very very hard, then achieving that type of victory would be kind of cool, right?

WWI is one of the most under-represented period of history in gaming, just as Cold War. Those periods present unique challenges for the devs, but that doesn't mean that good WWI/CW games cannot be made.

I think something good might be made, but I dont see it with the same way HoI 3 works. Anyway, there is a WW I mod for HoI 3 over there. Perhaps I will give it a try.
 
OK so I assume your main thing is the whole western front and how it was a war of attrition over a conquest war. BUT think about this, a WAR game with ECONOMICS to simulate the attrition campaign. You have to be careful with your resources which would be more fleshed out then HOI3.
But I honestly think it is a mistake not to have a WW1 game, people do want it.
 
You could easily mod HoI3 into giving you a pretty good WW1 experience. Would be a massive undertaking though.
 
You could easily mod HoI3 into giving you a pretty good WW1 experience. Would be a massive undertaking though.

Similar to the cold war, various HOI-series mods attempted to do this, but none have actually suceeded in coming up with a even a roughly finished product - it's just too big a task, and WW1 has certain features which are not easy to mod well in HOI3. Really, to give WW1 a decent treatment, special mechanisms are needed that HOI3 is not really designed to accomodate.

Yes, there are turn-based WW1 games on the market (Matrix's Commander - The Great War, for example, which I'm thinking of buying as a Christmas present to myself), and they don't seem to be money-losers even if their market is niche even compared to most Paradox games. However, obviously Paradox know their market, and if they can't see a WW1 game being an earner for them they know what they're talking about. Maybe if smaller games-houses score successes with WW1-oriented games in the future Paradox will take another look at this.

"I disagree entirely with those who say that it would be boring. I was never bored when I was playing as France and defending against the German onslaught in HOI2 or HOI3 - in fact, I usually quit when I achieved a breakthrough, as the game became easy and predictable then :)"

This is pretty much my experience of the game as well - in any strategy game, it's far more gratifying to rescue a desperate situation than it is to overwhelm a weak enemy. Particularly in HOI3 you find yourself quitting the game at some point because, having acheived dominance, the game becomes a chore. WW1 has the advantage that, historically, either side could have won the war even as late as August 1918 - four months before it finished. In WW2, however, the war was decided by 1943 and it should be impossible (but, of course, is not because of AI issues) for the Axis to acheive victory by 1944 - the USSR and the Allies simply had the Axis outgunned.
 
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I actually think the interwar period would be interesting. Something halfway between Vicky and HoI. You'd need to be able to simulate the boom of the 20s and the bust of the 30s though. A tricky task at the best of times. Not even Vicky necessarily does such a great job at boom-bust cycles.

As for WW1, I think it would need to be more of a logistics based wargame then a conventional one. In the end, the war was won almost entirely on logistics, tactical and strategic flourishes didn't play such a big role as in WW2.
 
Contradiction anyone?

Or perhaps just a Paradox....
Not necessarily. Something that takes a lot of work to do can still be easy. For example, writing every number up to 2 million would be a massive undertaking, but it wouldn't actually be very difficult, it would just take forever.
 
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Not necisarily. Something that takes a lot of work to do can still be easy. For example, writing every number up to 2 million would be a massive undertaking, but it wouldn't actually be very difficult, it would just take forever.

I still think that to make a true WW1 HOI3-style game you would need to do more than just change the soft code, you would need to do some work on the .exe as well, just as was necessary for EvW.
 
I still think that to make a true WW1 HOI3-style game you would need to do more than just change the soft code, you would need to do some work on the .exe as well, just as was necessary for EvW.
I agree, I was just saying that podcat's comment wasn't necessarily a contradiction.
 
Wouldn't the western front be rather boring? I mean breakouts required advancements in tech by 1917-18 when the mobile offensives really began. The game would be quite dull for UK, France , Germany in 1915-17 apart from fringe conflicts in the middle east. Of course the Germans could have fun in the East against the slowly collapsing Russians.

Austria-Hungary slowly collapsed 'like a flan in a cupboard' and the USA turned up late.

An alternate WW1 sandbox game would be fun (with the possibility to play a more historical game set up.