Will Paradox ever make a game that properly focuses in on and represents China?

[Eltener]

I really want to be able to play China in a way that doesn't seem cobbled together from unique mechanics that are great in spirit but are ultimately derived from super Western-centric games. I don't mean that as a bash to paradox, a lot of super important and interesting history is from Europe but it does mean that China has always felt wrong in the way it plays, to me at least. It does seem a lot like China really often gets the short end of the stick in terms of representing how the region actually worked in the time frames of paradox games.

 

[SirAlexius]

I have been really hoping for a game like this from Paradox for a while. Hopefully it happens soon.

 

[Kazanov]

Maybe a proper chinese expansion for EU4, instead of these polemic DLC they have released in past years. The same for other games.

 

[Sourlol]

I really want to be able to play China in a way that doesn't seem cobbled together from unique mechanics that are great in spirit but are ultimately derived from super Western-centric games.

If you want a game about China that doesn’t contain game mechanics introduced and utilized by western game developers...maybe find an “eastern” game studio....

That said, wtf is a western-centric game mechanic?

Also, “Eastern” game developers tend to be Japanese or Korean studios...neither of which are big fans of China. Finally, China (the State) and history are often at odds. A Chinese game developer has little, if any, latitude to create a game about economics/politics/war over time within China. There are far too many damaging things that have happened over the last 3000+ years that would undermine the CCP, and those can’t be ignored if one is to make a compelling history game localized to one region—you have to be able to get into the nitty gritty.

 

[frolix42]

First of all PDS games are officially and arbitrarily banned in the PRC, despite the fact that Tencent owns a significant piece of this company. Chinese players should have a better path to developer attention once they can access Paradox games outside of the grey market.

China, specifically Ming, is very overpowered in EU4. I don't like how China is portrayed in Eu4, but it has got plenty of focus there.

In HoI4, China got significant attention and focus with the Waking The Tiger DLC. IMO certain regions needed it more than China (Spain).

I agree with the developer's decision not to include China in CK2 and Imperiator.

So very many aspects of Victoria 2 were incomplete, China is just part of a long list.

 

[Warial]

First of all PDS games are officially and arbitrarily banned in the PRC, despite the fact that Tencent owns a significant piece of this company.

PDS has Simplified Chinese support for Stellaris and Imperator, even though they are/will be banned in PRC?

 

[frolix42]

PDS has Simplified Chinese support for Stellaris and Imperator, even though they are/will be banned in PRC?

I know HoI and EU franchises are not approved (officially banned) by MoC because of political ignorance by the Ministry of Culture: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-iron-iv-removed-from-steam-in-china.1052971/

Stellaris does not portray China.

PDS is less likely to add China to Imperiator because some ignorant bureaucrat in the MoC could decide it is politically offensive.

 

[Warial]

I know HoI and EU franchises are not approved (officially banned) by MoC because of political ignorance by the Ministry of Culture: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-iron-iv-removed-from-steam-in-china.1052971/

Stellaris does not portray China.

PDS is less likely to add China to Imperiator because some ignorant bureaucrat in the MoC could decide it is politically offensive.

I know about HoI, but I never heard of EU or any other PDS franchise being banned.

 

[Nussor]

Its difficult. Paradox games usually focus on outwards expansion and interaction, but most struggles in China (and other SE Asian countries) were internal, with the occasional Barbarian incursion. That would be a completely different game.

 

[the glory of plain]

something like a three kingdom title?
unlikely
it is reasonable to expect a better representation then ck2 or eu4
but unless ck3 and eu5 finally get some thing like regional mod
still unlikely to put much effort in to east asia

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

That said, wtf is a western-centric game mechanic?

Basically boiling down things outside of Europe to "[X]; it's like [Y] (if you look at it through privacy glass)", where X is something unique to anywhere not Europe and Y is an approximation that exists in the western-canon.

For some examples (these are just generic examples, not necessarily actually issues from Paradox games):

Sengoku Japan... it's just the HRE in Japan!

China's tributary system is like France's fiefdoms.

Tibet - sort of like the Papacy, right?

 

[Sourlol]

Basically boiling down things outside of Europe to "[X]; it's like [Y] (if you look at it through privacy glass)", where X is something unique to anywhere not Europe and Y is an approximation that exists in the western-cannon.

For some examples (these are just generic examples, not necessarily actually issues from Paradox games):

Sengoku Japan... it's just the HRE in Japan!

China's tributary system is like France's fiefdoms.

Tibet - sort of like the Papacy, right?

So it’s less the mechanics, and more their implementation as they relate to the subject matter (eastern social/economic/ethnic/political institutions)?

Cause when you say “eastern game mechanic” my brain starts racking fundamental differences between Final Fantasy and Skyrim or Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter.

I think it’s probabky valid—to a degree—that western devs of these sorts of games may not fully appreciate the unique complexities of the systems they attempt to model from cultures other than their own.

But I suppose I’d argue it’s impossible to, it’s either westerners interpreting a foreign system and using what they know as a standin, or easterners describing their system via what little (comparatively) they know about western systems as a analogy. Both are imperfect.

 

[icedt729]

If you want a game about China that doesn’t contain game mechanics introduced and utilized by western game developers...maybe find an “eastern” game studio....

That said, wtf is a western-centric game mechanic?

The problem isn't that the mechanics are *made* by Westerners, it's that they're made specifically to model Western countries and historical events. The mechanics that help the game produce the kinds of outcomes the devs want in Europe may or may not be a good fit for other regions, but are applied to them anyway. So, for example, EU4 has relatively deep mechanics for religious conflicts, dynastic inheritance, colonization, etc because those mechanics help represent European countries well, but if we were to design a game during the same date range but put our emphasis on China instead we would have a completely different set of priorities and a game that plays very differently.

For a specific example, EU4's trade mechanic is blatantly designed to favor Western Europe and to reward European countries for expanding along certain advantageous patterns. There is no economic logic to a one-directional flow of magic money scooting along unchangeable routes to eternally-fixed end points, but it helps achieve the desired outcomes in the West so it's what we get.

Also, “Eastern” game developers tend to be Japanese or Korean studios...neither of which are big fans of China.

Do you speak any East Asian languages or follow East Asian events closely? Chinese, Koreans and Japanese watch each other's TV shows, listen to each other's music, and buy each other's products. Obnoxious nationalism is a factor in all three countries but there's no deep antipathy towards China that stops video games from getting made (Koei has made a killing off of Three Kingdoms games domestically and globally).

Finally, China (the State) and history are often at odds. A Chinese game developer has little, if any, latitude to create a game about economics/politics/war over time within China. There are far too many damaging things that have happened over the last 3000+ years that would undermine the CCP, and those can’t be ignored if one is to make a compelling history game localized to one region—you have to be able to get into the nitty gritty.

Again, not a very accurate characterization. The CCP is hypersensitive about anything that might bring their own legitimacy into question but is not especially interested in portrayals of earlier periods. They exert pressure on historians and archaeologists in much more subtle ways than that, and everything from period dramas to historical games are common and very popular in China. The problem is that these domestic games generally aren't very good, not that they are under extreme scrutiny (you can find plenty of them on Steam if you enable Chinese language).

 

[GundamMerc]

For a specific example, EU4's trade mechanic is blatantly designed to favor Western Europe and to reward European countries for expanding along certain advantageous patterns. There is no economic logic to a one-directional flow of magic money scooting along unchangeable routes to eternally-fixed end points, but it helps achieve the desired outcomes in the West so it's what we get.

Honestly changing this singular mechanic to something much more dynamic would alleviate much of the allegations of eurocentric bias. Not all of them, but much.

I would also point out that another imbalance is the difference in state size between China and Europe in HoI IV. This reduces the potential strength of industry for a chinese power.

 

[Paragon Badger]

In HoI4, China got significant attention and focus with the Waking The Tiger DLC. IMO certain regions needed it more than China (Spain).

I feel obligated to mention that China was in the war against the Axis before anyone else, fought for 8 years, and lost some twenty million lives in the conflict. Not to downplay its bloody civil war, but Spain did not directly participate in WW2.

That being said, Waking the Tiger is... not great as an expansion of China. The most hyped part of that DLC was the new focus tree for Germany. Admittedly, while the rework was desperately needed- the cited reasons for the revamp (lack of ahistorical options, inflexibility, railroadiness) were all firmly in place during development of the new Chinese focus trees. Nationalist China doesn't even have any real alternate idealogy paths. There was tremendous potential for the Warlords to each play uniquely and have an interesting dynamic- but they all ended up with a cookie cutter tree that simply morphs into Nationalist China's focus tree when you're done.

 

[frolix42]

I feel obligated to mention that China was in the war against the Axis before anyone else, fought for 8 years, and lost some twenty million lives in the conflict. Not to downplay its bloody civil war, but Spain did not directly participate in WW2.

That being said, Waking the Tiger is... not great as an expansion of China. The most hyped part of that DLC was the new focus tree for Germany. Admittedly, while the rework was desperately needed- the cited reasons for the revamp (lack of ahistorical options, inflexibility, railroadiness) were all firmly in place during development of the new Chinese focus trees. Nationalist China doesn't even have any real alternate idealogy paths. There was tremendous potential for the Warlords to each play uniquely and have an interesting dynamic- but they all ended up with a cookie cutter tree that simply morphs into Nationalist China's focus tree when you're done.

That is fair. China did need a DLC and I'm glad it got one.

Expecting each clique to get a unique tree is a bit much. Manchuko got its own tree.

 

[Knut Skallagrim]

Tbh if you guys fire up europa universalis 3 and see how china was portrayed you will see the quantum leap that pdx made on that region, because thats what basically eu4 situation was at game release. I am playing a lot in south east asia lately and i remember when community main lament was about countries lacking their own national ideas, and now that region has been so much focused that imo they got way better ideas than 3/4 of europe itself, without counting some OPMs that have a whole mission tree for themselves (taungu is a beast xd), it became finally a superb region to play in imo (as it should have been), ofc its far from perfect, but as personal opinion the game is called europa universalis 4, the HRE mechanic is identical to eu3, while mandate of heaven mechanic got completely changed...europe needs a bit of love...

 

[icedt729]

Yeah, no question EU4 has been a great improvement over EU3 in this regard. PDS has definitely been broadening their scope over this current generation of games and I'm glad to see that direction. But it's still mainly a case of core elements being designed for Western countries and then adapted for everyone else. The four Ages, many of the idea groups, the heavy focus on inter-state war, religious mechanics suited to crusades and the Reformation- all are good fits for western Europe but not necessarily for other places.

So, for example, if I was going to make a game set in the same dates that was focused on China and its neighbors rather than on Europe, I would definitely shift the focus away from inter-state wars (because there were very few of them and most of them ended in status quo ante) and towards internal economic and political management instead. Balancing political factions, managing the rise and fall of senior officials and generals, keeping the budget in the black, handling monetary policy, and the like would make up the meat of the gameplay rather than fighting wars, colonizing or converting heathens.

 

[Sturmir]

Again, not a very accurate characterization. The CCP is hypersensitive about anything that might bring their own legitimacy into question but is not especially interested in portrayals of earlier periods. They exert pressure on historians and archaeologists in much more subtle ways than that, and everything from period dramas to historical games are common and very popular in China. The problem is that these domestic games generally aren't very good, not that they are under extreme scrutiny (you can find plenty of them on Steam if you enable Chinese language).

Game would be autobanned if the game does not represent the current territorial claims as "ancient chinese territories" - These are quite common. I've a lot of friends who are historians in China ( I've lived there, and spent a long time in Asia. ) Chinese censors are super touchy. I've gotten in trouble (censored) in Wechat for typing something about an ethnic minority in China (My wife is an Ethnic minority chinese, Hakka) - If want some proof of subtle handling:

- China Uncensored, Ancestral Claims in S.C.S
https://www.newsweek.com/china-destroys-maps-problem-borders-1375608 and a fun little article about how they just destroy maps that go against CCP propaganda.

Do you speak any East Asian languages or follow East Asian events closely? Chinese, Koreans and Japanese watch each other's TV shows, listen to each other's music, and buy each other's products. Obnoxious nationalism is a factor in all three countries but there's no deep antipathy towards China that stops video games from getting made (Koei has made a killing off of Three Kingdoms games domestically and globally).

Yes. I do speak a bit from the smatterings of China's ethnic minorities, and a bit of Mandarin and Cantonese. Japanese and Korean as well. My Chinese students used to love Baekhyun and other K-pop and J-pop stars. The Chinese government does all it can to dissuade this recently. ( https://www.vox.com/latest-news/2017/3/3/14795636/china-south-korea-pop-culture-kpop-attacks-thaad ) - Chinese censors are fairly keen on keeping the country blocked out and free from foreign taint. Nationalism in china is on the rise, and the flight of foreign capital is why I don't live there now.

As for Japanese markets on Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and Dynasty Warriors, these games are very popular in Japan and in the rest of Asia, these games aren't exactly accurate for china either, and while the name suggests they are based on the Chinese's Records of the 3 kingdoms, but they're based on an overtly exaggerated 三国志 (吉川英治). Their mechanics are based around the Sengoku Jidai and hardly the tributary system of China, Chinese Feudalism and System of Prefectures and Counties.

What this really translates to is a game which wouldn't be allowed to be sold in China, and rely on the world market to pay for development. Western developers trying to sell games in Japan have a lot of competition (I didn't see much western content in Akibahara) and expensive localization which doesn't necessarily mean it would pay for itself. It's a gamble.

So you have a combination of difficult factors that I believe lead to no developers seriously tackling china with complex, accurate gameplay:
1) Unfamiliar mechanics and ideological systems in eastern culture.
2) Touchy politics which makes marketing to areas most interested very hard
3) Risky development return on investment.
4) An unfamiliar subject which with a form of patriotism/nationalism on the rise would lead to the game to only be sold to those who would have wanted it. (Which does include me.)
5) Marketing a game about China in America (arguably one of the most lucrative markets to sell to) wouldn't do so hot right now.

(Edit: Clarified point 2)

 

[Quantum_AI]

Like @Sturmir points out, any historical game that shows China has a risk of being banned in China. Hearts of Iron 4 was banned in China FYI. They also came up with a new law recently which states, "China will also stop approving certain games inspired by its imperial past".

So its a risky proposition. Devs WILL have to sugar coat history and I for one don't want that. Given how PDX fans want the games to be historically accurate, you are stuck in a situation where you either have to piss off the CCP or your fanbase. Just not worth the risk IMO.