Will Paradox ever make a game that properly focuses in on and represents China?

[GundamMerc]

--snip--

I'm just going to point out that China Uncensored isn't exactly the most unbiased or factual of youtube channels... its main purpose is pointing out everything negative regarding China while avoiding anything truly positive.

Newsweek as well isn't exactly well known for its factual reporting either, often spinning or plain inventing stories.

 

[Waverunner]

How is paradox suppose to make a game about the history of china yet sell the game in china? China is notorious for not allowing games to be sold in their country because of that. A game as political as paradox ones can be (just see the rage for games when borders are drawn wrong on the forums or underrepresented), just think about what the CCP would do to a game that draws borders wrong in their own country. Lets not forget the fact that modern day GPS is abhorrently bad in China because of this exact reason.

 

[Warial]

How is paradox suppose to make a game about the history of china yet sell the game in china? China is notorious for not allowing games to be sold in their country because of that. A game as political as paradox ones can be (just see the rage for games when borders are drawn wrong on the forums or underrepresented), just think about what the CCP would do to a game that draws borders wrong in their own country. Lets not forget the fact that modern day GPS is abhorrently bad in China because of this exact reason.

Somehow Koei has no problem either selling Dynasty Warriors or Romance of Three Kingdoms in China. I fail to see why PDS would have fared differently, especially if they made Three Kingdoms game (and let's be realistic, it's the only period Westerners are acquaintanced with on average).

 

[orochi2k]

China didn't ban any games. Because China doesn't use a blacklist system. But, a whitelist system. Even to that system, its jurisdiction only limits to the stores inside China and softwares published in China.
According to the law of China, China comply to all the international agreements China has signed.
According to the promise made and signed by China when join WTO, China allows Chinese people to directly buy goods from foreign companies.
According to international law, a company belong to a country either it residences or registers. Thus, Steam is an American company which is a foreign company to China.
Thus, legally speaking HOI4 is allowed to be bought in China. But, to maintain a good relationship with Chinese government, Valve decides to remove HOI4 and only HOI4 from steam store. (As we can see, HOI3 can still be bought in China.)
This business practice is purely on Valve. As you can see, Chinese people can still buy HOI4 from Paradox store directly. Or from other sites like Humble store and Yuplay(not Ubi's Uplay, It's a friendly Russian online store has good Chinese localization).
It is totally legal and not a grey market. It is open under China's respect to WTO framework.

If it is considered illegal, then... comrade, there is something fun in China's constitution which is the foundation of all the laws of China.... it indicates...basically, all the government in the world that is not following communism is illegal.(But, there is nothing there to tell what China is going to do with this situation.) If you are so eager to follow the "law" of China while unfortunately live in a capitalism country, please overthrow your government and install a communism regime. Because, your government is currently in a grey area of law of China....

 

[Waverunner]

China didn't ban any games. Because China doesn't use a blacklist system. But, a whitelist system. Even to that system, its jurisdiction only limits to the stores inside China and softwares published in China.
According to the law of China, China comply to all the international agreements China has signed.
According to the promise made and signed by China when join WTO, China allows Chinese people to directly buy goods from foreign companies.
According to international law, a company belong to a country either it residences or registers. Thus, Steam is an American company which is a foreign company to China.
Thus, legally speaking HOI4 is allowed to be bought in China. But, to maintain a good relationship with Chinese government, Valve decides to remove HOI4 and only HOI4 from steam store. (As we can see, HOI3 can still be bought in China.)
This business practice is purely on Valve. As you can see, Chinese people can still buy HOI4 from Paradox store directly. Or from other sites like Humble store and Yuplay(not Ubi's Uplay, It's a friendly Russian online store has good Chinese localization).
It is totally legal and not a grey market. It is open under China's respect to WTO framework.

If it is considered illegal, then... comrade, there is something fun in China's constitution which is the foundation of all the laws of China.... it indicates...basically, all the government in the world that is not following communism is illegal.(But, there is nothing there to tell what China is going to do with this situation.) If you are so eager to follow the "law" of China while unfortunately live in a capitalism country, please overthrow your government and install a communism regime. Because, your government is currently in a grey area of law of China....

lol not sure if you’re trolling or not. It’s clear outside the china censors that the CCP blacklisted HoI4, not the other way around. I guess you didn’t read the thread BjornB made did you?

 

[Paragon Badger]

Well, I can't speak for paradox games. I imagine they aren't very popular in China. CK2 barely has them, EU4 and Victoria II detail the rise of European colonialism, which isn't their favorite subject... and Hearts of Iron IV, well, WW2 was certainly not a wonderful time for the Chinese. We in the West are fortunate to have not endured any tremendous national humiliations- but imagine playing a game where your nation was at its lowest point.

However, I can speak for Creative Assembly and Total War; Three Kingdoms. There is talks that it will be banned under this new law about China's 'imperial history' but the time period is beloved and so far the game appears pretty popular and well received among Chinese gamers. A lot of forums and Chinese users have stated that they will use the international version of Steam or otherwise bypass any efforts to censor that game.

I think the market is there and people will be willing to flip the bird to their government to participate in it. It may be a niche market, but honestly you should never fully buy into the corporate cautionary 'unmarketable' excuse.

 

[Quantum_AI]

... and Hearts of Iron IV, well, WW2 was certainly not a wonderful time for the Chinese.'

No offence, but did you think this through before posting? WW2 was not a great time for Japan, Germany, USSR, France and almost half the world. Should they all ban the game???!?

The problem here is China can ban content (or request it removed with threats) willy-nilly without providing any reasons or recourse to the legal system. Here is proof of that:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-iron-iv-removed-from-steam-in-china.1052971/

China is the second biggest gaming market in the world. If you want to cater to that market, you will HAVE to sugar coat history to suit their feelings. And they can be very petty about things - they banned Winnie the Pooh for crying out loud! A teddy bear actually triggers them enough to ban it, how will they handle actual negative events? So either you rewrite history and the map to suit their feelings OR you just avoid all controversy and not include them. I definitely think such coercion should not be tolerated.

 

[orochi2k]

lol not sure if you’re trolling or not. It’s clear outside the china censors that the CCP blacklisted HoI4, not the other way around. I guess you didn’t read the thread BjornB made did you?

I did and I am just pointing out the "a claim that the game does not comply with local law" is both wrong and not a good reason.
I passed China's national law exam last year. Thus, I am pretty confident with my understanding of the law of China.
Try challenge me in law if you can.

Another common misunderstanding is to take government action as law.
Something fun about China's political system is.... in China, CCP doesn't make laws, "represents of people" makes the laws(A few of those guys even have free wills, surprise? ), government(ran by CCP) merely enforce it. But, sometimes the Party doesn't like the law that was made. So, they act differently, sometimes even against the law, and try to make people believe what they are doing is actually the law.
If you see anything is acting "arbitrarily", it's likely not something based on law. For laws are filled with logical, details and formal process trying to contain the arbitrary of government.

So, on the table, MoC will not openly admit any game is banned in China for that is against both local law and WTO's agreement which Trump is working quite hard to fight against China right now. (Just like China will not openly admit Google/Facebook is blocked in China, they just....have technical issues to get connected That's why even Obama blames China not "play by the rules")
But, under the table, well... We have quite a few "technical issues".... which is basically a big political power struggle.

Plus, any law has its jurisdiction. Local law shall only affect local shops/software unless agreed in an international agreement.
For example, if China pass a law to force you to surrender all your personal belonging for the cause of revolution, will you comply as someone outside China? I think not, because you are not inside the jurisdiction of China. And they can't just send police come to your country to take things from you.

Same thing goes with international business. China has the jurisdiction in China enforce upon local stores and softwares. But, if I go to US/visit a US store online, and the shop owner refuse to sell me something just because I am Chinese and according to the law of China he can't sell me that specific goods, I think he can get sued in US for discriminate against customer which is against the local law of US.
If memory serves, Valve recently got sued in EU for a similar reason on their regional lock.

PlayStation and Xbox had been banned for selling in China for 14 years. But people who traveled to Hong Kong and bought consoles there are still legal.

 

[Ixal]

I hope CK3 will be able to handle China and their unique government quirks like examinations. But thats DLC material. As pointed out, a game centered on china with historic content, the type of games PDX makes, are in very high danger of being censored in the main market for this type of games, thus they are not feasible.

 

[orochi2k]

they banned Winnie the Pooh for crying out loud!

Nope, the reason for "banning" Winnie the Pooh is people made tons of meme about Xi looks like Winnie the Pooh online.
Government takes Winnie as a potential politic offense. They are not certain if people are using it as a symbol to fight against government.

A teddy bear actually triggers them enough to ban it

Well, a guy blamed government lack of the compassion and love of a teddy bear during a strike. And of course that person got arrested. And that became....some events government aware of...

But, of course they didn't issue official orders to "ban". They just talk to some people like "Hey, don't put that bear on screen. Or, you will lose your job."
Pretty much you will not find any useful evidence to accuse China for building up a trade barrier.
Same thing as there is no government order issued to Steam to ask them to remove HOI4. Thus, any one claims it is the government of China that removed HOI4 on Steam needs to give us this evidence even just a paper which does not exist. I believe Valve didn't even tell Paradox much on this matter.
But, if you ask Chinese government on their website if they did it. They will deny it. (Because, they will have to provide such document otherwise.)

you will HAVE to sugar coat history to suit their feelings.

You don't.
You just need to set up your store outside China's territory.
Lots of Chinese players come to buy HOI4 directly from Paradox store ( even when many of them will need people to help them to translate the website and use a localization mod of game). Otherwise, we will not have a HOI4 community that big in China right now.
You can find China servers with "52PCgames localization mod" all days in HOI4's multiplayer game. (Hello! We do exist! We have the biggest population in the world, remember? )

Of course government can set up Great Firewall to make our connection hard. But, Chinese players are very willing to spend extra efforts to reach the game we love. We have been fighting this war since Google no longer existed in China. We will try to keep holding what we can still have, and we will try to hold it very tightly.
Remove HOI4 from Steam will not stop players from China finding other stores to buy the game. Even a few of us bought from some sorts of black market with doubled price.(Because they can't understand English on those website or don't have dollars available.)

I definitely think such coercion should not be tolerated.

It is commonly agreed inside HOI4 player community in China.(Or may be even in all player communities in China) As victims of many terrible censorship, we wish more companies to take actions to fight against it instead of comply to it. We are playing a whole game or nothing. Just take Civ4 as an example. People would rather buy an uncensored version from GOG, instead of buy a much cheaper censored Chinese special version from local stores.

What if there is none uncensored version available to Chinese player?
Here is a warning to any companies want to follow the censorship of China:
Do not censor the game for China! Or people will directly go pirates if they can't get the uncensored game from any stores online.

Just look at Tropico 6 and all games that is "Epic exclusive" right now.
(Epic store is entirely regional locked in China. Thus, "Epic exclusive" = "Go pirates" in China. Many believes Tencent is certainly behind this, for they have the agenda to make a totally government proved local store "WeGame" in China. They are also a big shareholder of Epic. And the method Epic uses to block Chinese people indicates they have lots of insides and knowledge of Chinese player behaviors which is quite suspicious. )
I admit it is a bit extreme. And it is the only case that I don't disagree of people using pirate software. But, it is just...China. Many people here work from 9 am to 9 pm, 6 days a week deserve some uncensored entertainment with the very limited time they have to enjoy the games with completed experience.

That's why many Chinese players are protesting against Valve who tries to set up a local Steam store in China with Perfect World. Because, it will make the store inside China's jurisdiction and have to follow the censorship.
Struggle long enough in this fight, everyone can become expert in international business law.




Bonus point here:
As we can see, to let western people to understand the situation in China is quite....exhausting. Even just from one perspective of view around the concept which many western players are considering as "ban"(we use this word here just because there seems lack of a better match of background contents in their life. So apparently, they take a concept that feels similar but actually quite different to understand. Just like "Take Tibet as Papacy" approach ).
It comes 2 questions:
1, Is it even possible for Paradox whose employees are mainly from western countries to understand a real China?
2, If Paradox can really understand China, will they find it worth the efforts to truly represent it in game? Maybe a "fantasy China" may meet the expectation of western players more. (Just like you will never find some certain "Chinese food" that exists in western country actually exists in China....But, they make it anyway and call it "Chinese food")

 

[Quantum_AI]

@orochi2k It's good if some people in China are trying to get around the censorship. But as a company and a business, PDX needs legal certainty about the fate of its investments. A game focused exclusively on China will be expected to get at least a good chunk of revenue from China and thus no company would even risk getting on their bad side. That is what is happening - it is called self-censorship and it is most apparent in Hollywood. Studios are themselves making changes just to remove any possibility of a ban because that can cost them millions. It happened in Dr Strange, World War Z etc.

We can argue all day long about all of this, but at the end of the day PDX is the one which has to safeguard their investments from an authoritarian govt which can do whatever it wants and often makes totally unreasonable threats and there is no legal recourse.

 

[orochi2k]

if some people in China are trying to get around the censorship.

First, it's not just some people. You will find Steam, UPlay, GoG all have a great Chinese player base. Especially on Steam, Chinese user number once surpassed US user number and achieved the top place in the world. (Currently, still on 2nd place.)
Second, it's not a get around. It's our righteous right to visit those stores and spend our money. The censorship is technically illegal.
According to law "Any ISPs has no right to block users from visiting certain sites of internet."
and according to constitution "Citizen's communication, including mails, phonecalls, internet connection is private and shall not be monitored unless under police investigation."

PDX needs legal certainty about the fate of its investments

Legal certainty is what I have provided.
The law of China acknowledges all international agreements China has signed -> China signed WTO agreement -> WTO agreement clearly allows people in China to buy games directly from foreign online stores which is outside China's jurisdiction.

That's basically the foundation of why Chinese people can buy games from Steam/GOG/UPlay/HumbleStore or any foreign online stores

A game focused exclusively on China will be expected to get at least a good chunk of revenue from China

Why?
Koei's Romance of Three Kingdoms and Dynasty Warriors got most of their revenue outside mainland China before they have Chinese localization.
I'd expect the same on the incoming Total War.

There is no direct connection between contents focus on China and the revenue from China.

You will find Chinese players spend stupid high amount of money on Japanese anime games. So, if you expect to get good revenue from China. You can make something like this instead.
To Paradox fans in China, we just buy whatever there is a Paradox strategy game tag. We don't care if it's Roma, it's Britain, it's some countries we never heard of. Give us a store link. You will find people rush to hit the buy button. (A recent example is MtG, before steam removed the regional lock on DLC, many just jump onto Paradox store to buy it.)
We are grateful to just have anything like this we can play even it can be buggy as hell. Because so far as we know Paradox is not going to abandon us while many other companies just applied their regional locks to China. (Likely, under some bad influence )
Many Chinese people are very very easy to be satisfied. They will not even complain about working 80 hours a week while I am a quite lazy person.
When there is a bug found in Paradox games, local communities in China will just try to mod it out and carry on silently. (Maybe you will find me being the only Chinese player bouncing around Paradox forum. And then, think about China's player population based on Steam sales data... There may be like hundred thousands of silent Chinese players.)

to remove any possibility of a ban

OK, let's not talk about "ban". It may be too complex. It's talk about to get approved.
Here is some pre-requirement to get China start to even consider the game to be approved:
1, All online chat must apply language filter to avoid "sensitive words" that may be against government policy. All the chats during multiplayer game must be logged.(Well, many games just remove their chat function in China because of this.)
2, All servers must be located in China, including those servers host by players.(So, anyone hosts the game is inside China's jurisdiction. If government find you are doing something illegal in game, they can just kick your door. Check CS:GO....)
3, Either the developer or the publisher must be a company in China. (So that government can find someone to punish if things went wrong. Our friendly neighborhood Tencent is super willingly to be you partner...for a price.)
4, No games shall actively encourage PVP ( Tencent tried quite hard, but PLAYERUNKNOWN'S BATTLEGROUNDS is never approved. But, Chinese people are flooding steam server anyway.)
5, No liquid of any color shall be displayed during any fight. (Previously, only red blood was not allowed. Now any color is not allowed. You will never going to see fallout 2/Mortal Kombat gets approved anyway) Death of any character shall be avoided. (Didn't we kill millions of people in HOI4?)
6, You will need to send 2 hard copies of the game on DVD to apply for approve. Whenever an update is made, you will need to send 2 hard copies of latest version of the game on DVD to get approved again. (WoW's Chinese server is thus always lag for 6 months compare to international server.)
7, You will need to send your source code too if authority asks. (Of course, that makes China can acquire your technology which Trump recently found untolerable )
8, Female characters are not allowed to wear clothes cover too little skins. (No DoA anyway....)
9, It will take months for government to decide if approve or not AFTER receive all the applying materials from your partner in China. (Take a nap. )

Now, let's talk about investment. Despite all the political stuffs. How many companies want to play according to those rules above?
That's why only just a few ten-thousands of games got approved during last a few decades. more than 90% of them are just trash mobile games made in China, those cheap card/chess games are everywhere. You can almost never see any 3A games on the approved list.

If your "ban" is equal to "not approved" then most of games all over the world are "banned" in China indeed. (Most of them didn't apply to be approved to begin with,as quite few will hire a partner in China.) Thus, I see nothing special about HOI4. If it can be a reason to remove games on Steam. Then, maybe we may have like 10 games left on Steam.

Conclusion: why bother to appease China's government?

A game or DLC heavily about China shall be targeting to the players all over the world just like other games/dlcs.
Did Paradox's old shogun game expected heavy revenue from Japan? I think not based on steamdb sales data.
Did Stellaris expected revenue from alien creatures many light years away yet to be discovered by us? Absolutely not.
It's just like China's Kung Fu movies are mostly viewed by foreigners. People in China much more prefer those magic-like fantasy Wu Xia movies instead.
It's just like some "Chinese food" are only made for foreigners.

 

[Flammifleure]

I would certainly like to see Paradox produce some games centered on East Asia. Specifically, I would love to see the Clausewitz engine applied to the Three Kingdoms period. Though other eras (and also taking in China's neighbours) would be itneresting too.

It was a disappointment for me that Imperator: Rome didn't include China. I can see why they didn't, though. And so far I havent' been impressed by IR so I suppose it doesn't matter if I'm not going to get it anyway.

As for the debate that seems to have taken over this thread, I can't help but think that if Koei can make money off of games about the Three Kingdoms, Paradox can too. : p But that's the company's call, and while it would be sad never to see a Paradox Three Kingdoms game I can understand why they wouldn't feel it worth the investment.

 

[Shebaloso]

I really want to be able to play China in a way that doesn't seem cobbled together from unique mechanics that are great in spirit but are ultimately derived from super Western-centric games. I don't mean that as a bash to paradox, a lot of super important and interesting history is from Europe but it does mean that China has always felt wrong in the way it plays, to me at least. It does seem a lot like China really often gets the short end of the stick in terms of representing how the region actually worked in the time frames of paradox games.

Look, i'm gonna be honest with you. If we are speaking about games like Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis, etc. then there are a thousand improvements on western nations/factions mechanics and the nations/factions that interacted with them on a frequent basis that i'd rather see before the subject of China is even mentioned. We need not even go that far to see how some nations are represented with a template of western feudal relations, like the Byzantine empire. I really don't see the point in going for China in openly eurocentric games when even western feudal relations and mechanics themselves have so much room for improvement.

The best solution for me would be a game focused exclusively on china, i really see no point in putting a proper representation China and everything west of central asia in the same game, especially when dealing with a period of history before the rise of european imperialism. It's a bit like the situation of India in CK2 to a lesser extent. There is the entire Indian subcontinent, but literally no interactions between Indians and everything west of the Indus bar the occasional muslim sultanate holy warring their way in. A proper representation of China is just a waste of resources in a game centered around europe, the middle east, and central asia to a lesser extent.

 

[Sturmir]

China is a very complicated subject, and I wouldn't really want to push this entirely off topic, but...

I'm just going to point out that China Uncensored isn't exactly the most unbiased or factual of youtube channels... its main purpose is pointing out everything negative regarding China while avoiding anything truly positive.

China Uncensored is biased, but if you have any evidence to suggest it isn't factual, I'd love to get it. China uncensored may focus on the negative of China, but it is a good aggrevated source of news about the country (If I want unbiased news on china, I'd look to the Japanese times or something. Regardless, it's for a point and still does not negate the use of it in this context)

I'm really confused on why people think bias is bad. We use bias all the time. When I opened my fridge, my bias against the soymilk means I selected cream to put in my coffee. Everyones point of view will create a bias. As long as the information isn't false, bias is okay by me. Just can't rely on a single source for information.

Newsweek as well isn't exactly well known for its factual reporting either, often spinning or plain inventing stories.

Newsguard rates Newsweek as a reputable enough source. If you'd like to go ahead and present an unbiased source of information about this topic (that hasn't received money from china.) I'd be happy to look at it as well.

According to the law of China, China comply to all the international agreements China has signed.

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/files/Press/Reports/China 2017 WTO Report.pdf - China often doesn't comply to international agreements or laws. Theft of US intellectual property is proof of that.

(Piracy is a form of theft too, and very common in China as well, as you well admitted)

As for China following its laws:

China's constitution, Article 35 of the 1982 State Constitution proclaims that "citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration."

When the hell does China allow these things 90% of the time? I mean, public order trumps freedoms in nearly every case, and if public order isn't at risk, the CCP does like to make it seems like it is under threat regardless (Falun Gong anyone?)

Since you have passed the national exams for law, Congratulations. I'm sure you're trying your best and actually don't agree with the corruption in China. You're probably a very good person (I mean, you do like Paradox Games!)
However, laws aren't sacrosanct in China. How I used to describe China was a lawless land with a lot of orders. It is literally organized Chaos. (God I hated driving on Zhengzhou's roads.) Enforcement is a discretionary issue with the Security Bureau, and intelligence agencies.

Of course government can set up Great Firewall to make our connection hard. But, Chinese players are very willing to spend extra efforts to reach the game we love. We have been fighting this war since Google no longer existed in China. We will try to keep holding what we can still have, and we will try to hold it very tightly.
Remove HOI4 from Steam will not stop players from China finding other stores to buy the game. Even a few of us bought from some sorts of black market with doubled price.(Because they can't understand English on those website or don't have dollars available.)

It also has issues with VPNs. While there, Private Internet Access failed. ExpressVPN was constantly targeted (but still worked.) - Sure, you can get access to these things, but it isn't something a company SHOULD plan around. Its incredibly difficult to think: "Well, if they censor the game/ban the game, our customers will just find ways around it and buy anyways!"

Conclusion: why bother to appease China's government?

Advertisement and public appeals. You want to be able to advertise your product in a country and appeal to a broader audience.. Sure, most of those in china willing to buy games are internet savvy, but the veil is tightening, and it just isn't worth it. Most developers are publicaly traded, and make determinations on where to invest limited capital to release a product. Then they see things like this:
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2...crackdown-should-worry-the-industry-elsewhere

If I was Paradox the news out of China, coupled with the straight takedown of HoI 4, would signal to me that any attempt to cater to the non-Taiwanese chinese market is a waste of time. (For Paradox)

Koei can make money off of games about the Three Kingdoms

KOEI has years of experience producing games nearly exclusively to the Japanese market, based around a japanese adaptation of a chinese book. Sure, they're successful, but people are asking western developers to go ahead and produce a similar quality product without nearly the breath of experience and fanbase. The Japanese gaming market is large enough (120M people) to support KOEI without selling globally (the reason why us westerners don't get a majority of KOEI releases. Localization alone is a ***** and expensive.) - I've had to play most Power Up Kits for ROT3K in Japanese.

SEGA has similar experience to KOEI in this regard. The Total war push for a 3 Kingdoms title may help this out to reach a wider audience and help western developers try to penetrate the sinosphere, but it isn't going to be relying on sales in China, and using the established total war title to release it. I'd hardly compare the total war games to be as comprehensive as the grand strategy paradox releases.

 

[Flammifleure]

KOEI has years of experience producing games nearly exclusively to the Japanese market, based around a japanese adaptation of a chinese book. Sure, they're successful, but people are asking western developers to go ahead and produce a similar quality product without nearly the breath of experience and fanbase. The Japanese gaming market is large enough (120M people) to support KOEI without selling globally (the reason why us westerners don't get a majority of KOEI releases. Localization alone is a ***** and expensive.) - I've had to play most Power Up Kits for ROT3K in Japanese.

SEGA has similar experience to KOEI in this regard. The Total war push for a 3 Kingdoms title may help this out to reach a wider audience and help western developers try to penetrate the sinosphere, but it isn't going to be relying on sales in China, and using the established total war title to release it. I'd hardly compare the total war games to be as comprehensive as the grand strategy paradox releases.

As I said, I have no idea whether it would be worthwhile for Paradox to try this or not; only that I hope someday they will. I don't think it's an entirely groundless hope, but it also isn't that important to me.

Still, to my mind, Paradox has plenty of experience in making strategy titles and a large enough fanbase in America and Europe to succeed with a RoTK title, if nothing else. I do suspect most of us wouldn't be looking for some kind of "accurate depiction" of China (so maybe this was the wrong thread for me to share my desire for such a game xD). Koei's RoTKVIII, which is the only one I have, is fun for its roleplay and strategic value; in terms of historical depth i don't think there's much if anything in it that could not be gleaned by reading the novel and a few history books.

 

[GundamMerc]

China is a very complicated subject, and I wouldn't really want to push this entirely off topic, but...



China Uncensored is biased, but if you have any evidence to suggest it isn't factual, I'd love to get it. China uncensored may focus on the negative of China, but it is a good aggrevated source of news about the country (If I want unbiased news on china, I'd look to the Japanese times or something. Regardless, it's for a point and still does not negate the use of it in this context)

I'm really confused on why people think bias is bad. We use bias all the time. When I opened my fridge, my bias against the soymilk means I selected cream to put in my coffee. Everyones point of view will create a bias. As long as the information isn't false, bias is okay by me. Just can't rely on a single source for information.



Newsguard rates Newsweek as a reputable enough source. If you'd like to go ahead and present an unbiased source of information about this topic (that hasn't received money from china.) I'd be happy to look at it as well.



https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/files/Press/Reports/China 2017 WTO Report.pdf - China often doesn't comply to international agreements or laws. Theft of US intellectual property is proof of that.

(Piracy is a form of theft too, and very common in China as well, as you well admitted)

As for China following its laws:

China's constitution, Article 35 of the 1982 State Constitution proclaims that "citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration."

When the hell does China allow these things 90% of the time? I mean, public order trumps freedoms in nearly every case, and if public order isn't at risk, the CCP does like to make it seems like it is under threat regardless (Falun Gong anyone?)

Since you have passed the national exams for law, Congratulations. I'm sure you're trying your best and actually don't agree with the corruption in China. You're probably a very good person (I mean, you do like Paradox Games!)
However, laws aren't sacrosanct in China. How I used to describe China was a lawless land with a lot of orders. It is literally organized Chaos. (God I hated driving on Zhengzhou's roads.) Enforcement is a discretionary issue with the Security Bureau, and intelligence agencies.



It also has issues with VPNs. While there, Private Internet Access failed. ExpressVPN was constantly targeted (but still worked.) - Sure, you can get access to these things, but it isn't something a company SHOULD plan around. Its incredibly difficult to think: "Well, if they censor the game/ban the game, our customers will just find ways around it and buy anyways!"




Advertisement and public appeals. You want to be able to advertise your product in a country and appeal to a broader audience.. Sure, most of those in china willing to buy games are internet savvy, but the veil is tightening, and it just isn't worth it. Most developers are publicaly traded, and make determinations on where to invest limited capital to release a product. Then they see things like this:
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2...crackdown-should-worry-the-industry-elsewhere

If I was Paradox the news out of China, coupled with the straight takedown of HoI 4, would signal to me that any attempt to cater to the non-Taiwanese chinese market is a waste of time. (For Paradox)



KOEI has years of experience producing games nearly exclusively to the Japanese market, based around a japanese adaptation of a chinese book. Sure, they're successful, but people are asking western developers to go ahead and produce a similar quality product without nearly the breath of experience and fanbase. The Japanese gaming market is large enough (120M people) to support KOEI without selling globally (the reason why us westerners don't get a majority of KOEI releases. Localization alone is a ***** and expensive.) - I've had to play most Power Up Kits for ROT3K in Japanese.

SEGA has similar experience to KOEI in this regard. The Total war push for a 3 Kingdoms title may help this out to reach a wider audience and help western developers try to penetrate the sinosphere, but it isn't going to be relying on sales in China, and using the established total war title to release it. I'd hardly compare the total war games to be as comprehensive as the grand strategy paradox releases.

Thought I'd ask since you mention being in china, when were you last in China?

I'd also like to ask if you've actually had family or friends that were brainwashed by the Falun Gong? I had a friend while back who disappeared after mentioning talking to one of their members to me. Yeah, no, they're a cult.

 

[Waverunner]

I did and I am just pointing out the "a claim that the game does not comply with local law" is both wrong and not a good reason.
I passed China's national law exam last year. Thus, I am pretty confident with my understanding of the law of China.
Try challenge me in law if you can.

The fact that you stated this has caused me to not even read the entirety of your post. Judging by other peoples responses, I'm glad I didn't. I do however congratulate you on passing an exam that is written by the CCP to continue their propaganda.

If China is as free as you claim, then why are they banning any references to 997? I lol'd at you trying to defend the decision to ban Winnie the Pooh. How insecure of yourself do you have to be to ban a cartoon character for children across the nation?

 

[GundamMerc]

The fact that you stated this has caused me to not even read the entirety of your post. Judging by other peoples responses, I'm glad I didn't. I do however congratulate you on passing an exam that is written by the CCP to continue their propaganda.

If China is as free as you claim, then why are they banning any references to 997? I lol'd at you trying to defend the decision to ban Winnie the Pooh. How insecure of yourself do you have to be to ban a cartoon character for children across the nation?

Have you ever stopped to think that perhaps this is because the Chinese people remember the trauma of civil war, being invaded, and before that supposedly "liberal" Western powers first hooking their nation on Opium and then exploiting China for its wealth? If the US had been through such a multigenerational trauma, I'd bet that we wouldn't go to fetish-level heights of freedom of speech. I'd be praying for peace, order, and economic prosperity instead. You see all the news stories of "oppression", but the average person in China isn't affected by that. They go about their daily lives like everyone else. If people like you were to be believed, China would be equivalent to North Korea, but we both know that's not true in the slightest.

 

[Sturmir]

@GundamMerc A year ago, before the arrest of the Canadian citizens. In and out of Asia constantly though. Wouldn't go back to China with the trade war. I still have a lot of friends in China, and they're all pretty intent on leaving. I feel bad for the South Africans the most, because most of the ones I worked with feel like they can't go back to South Africa, and China doesn't exactly make them feel welcomed (A fun event happened where my friends house was raided as part of a routine security bureau check. Lots of illegals working there now because of visa issues.)

As for Falun Gong, even if they are a cult (a claim which I would refute by both definitions of cult) - I live near several Canadian Falun Gong practicianers who have fled china and they're pretty down to earth. I'm sure there are fanatics, certainly, as with every situation - But are you sure your friend wasn't taken by the CCP? I mean, I've dealt with a lot of weird situations. Most of Henan's Midrange and High range children were my and my colleagues students - and saw first hand a lot of the CCP's weird exertion of control. My favourite bar was military owned and got shut down (CCP crackdown on the side businesses that the Chinese military has to pay their soldiers.), and knew the owner very well.